Rules Only: Adding new characteristics.

[Condottiere]

Empathy would be the ability to identify someone else's emotional state, possibly duplicating it.

Influencing and making people do things are actually separate things.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Even so, I also understand some skills use to be tied to SOC in the versions stat and skill count, and some cases it seems me odd... I can believe a Duke (SOC 15) can command better than a poor quarter scum (SOC 4) when using leadership. When using steward, I'm not so sure the same Duke will be better, as his commanding and imposing attitude may be counterproducent.

Fair enough, and implied in the rules if not stated explicitly.

Another thing I take from it is that you can't "buy class," though you can earn it (perhaps sometimes that's through money, but it doesn't really show up that way in the chargen system) and seem to lose some of it if you don't keep up appearances. "Faking it" through ostentation doesn't work well in the game (being filthy rich doesn't necessarily get you respect, especially from the people who matter).

 

[Grav_Moped]

I also understand Traveller this way, as alredy stated above, but that does not preclude Mike to have the right to think otherwise, and if he needs a name, I try to help...

I see your point -- and it's something the game doesn't set aside as its own thing (personal magnetism and/or physical attractiveness).

Leader skill is about being able to employ directive leadership.
Liaison skill is more about a collaborative leadership style.
Carousing might be a closer approach to personal magnetism (you're gonna like this guy!)

None of them are really about the management/organizational aspects of leadership (not just knowing how to tell someone to do something so they obey, but knowing how to delegate and who to delegate to). Which is kind of odd, but not really -- that gets more into the player side of the table than the character sheets. But there are skills for which no player could know the specifics, like Engineering, that "work" anyhow. Maybe there should be managerial skills that work similarly (Admin might cover it by extension; that is, Admin the skill as used in-game is just the byproduct of having suitable managerial skills in-universe).

 

[kilemall]

I use SOC as social intelligence governing interaction rolls such as bribery, persuasion, leader, etc. and EDU as an ersatz ranking stat.

The theory is that the well connected or ambitious get their education done by advantage or effort, highly educated academics have status too, and the lower classes don’t get access.

An alternative is to use the literal rank from the careers as social standing, or at least modifiers.

SOC isn’t the same as charisma, more the knowledge of what behavior best elicits the desired response. So it’s as good a base stat for intimidation or interrogation as persuasion.

 

[mike wightman]

So you use social Standing as a sociability rather than status characteristic...

So adding a status characteristic it is - you made my mind up

 

[McPerth]

As an aside:

Using SOC as other stats (basically to give DMs to actions) has always brought a problem to me: it may change too quickly in some (rare) cases.

As an example, in the Imperial Tour series of adventures: Dur Telmon starts as SOC 6, but he's knighted, so it becoming B overnight.

Imagine he intends to go to a high fashion club. The referee decides that to dance well he last fashion music, the roll is 8+, -2 if SOC 6-, +2 if SOC 11+, carousing skill applied as DM. If he goes the night before being knighted, he will need a 10+ to dance well, while if he goes the next night, he would need a 6+. Has he learned to dance in 24 hours?

 

[Grav_Moped]

As an aside:

Using SOC as other stats (basically to give DMs to actions) has always brought a problem to me: it may change too quickly in some (rare) cases.

As an example, in the Imperial Tour series of adventures: Dur Telmon starts as SOC 6, but he's knighted, so it becoming B overnight.

Imagine he intends to go to a high fashion club. The referee decides that to dance well he last fashion music, the roll is 8+, -2 if SOC 6-, +2 if SOC 11+, carousing skill applied as DM. If he goes the night before being knighted, he will need a 10+ to dance well, while if he goes the next night, he would need a 6+. Has he learned to dance in 24 hours?

No, but he's now in a status in which which it'd be rude for others to point out that he can't really dance. Maybe it's some new fashionable routine that they hadn't seen yet, rather than ineptitude?

 

[kilemall]

As an aside:

Using SOC as other stats (basically to give DMs to actions) has always brought a problem to me: it may change too quickly in some (rare) cases.

As an example, in the Imperial Tour series of adventures: Dur Telmon starts as SOC 6, but he's knighted, so it becoming B overnight.

Imagine he intends to go to a high fashion club. The referee decides that to dance well he last fashion music, the roll is 8+, -2 if SOC 6-, +2 if SOC 11+, carousing skill applied as DM. If he goes the night before being knighted, he will need a 10+ to dance well, while if he goes the next night, he would need a 6+. Has he learned to dance in 24 hours?

Going through a rigorous protocol/acculturation course would potentially be mandatory, if only to avoid embarrassment of the awarding noble.

 

[McPerth]

Going through a rigorous protocol/acculturation course would potentially be mandatory, if only to avoid embarrassment of the awarding noble.

But this will not give you the knowledge overnight...

 

[kilemall]

But this will not give you the knowledge overnight...

Wafers if you must be literal. I’m thinking it’s part of the awarding process prior to actually getting it.

 

[McPerth]

Wafers if you must be literal. I’m thinking it’s part of the awarding process prior to actually getting it.

Wafers may give you access to knowledge, but can they give you a different attitude/practice (what I understand SOC may modify any task)?

 

[kilemall]

Wafers may give you access to knowledge, but can they give you a different attitude/practice (what I understand SOC may modify any task)?

Not smooth certain confident to the manor born behavior, but good enough to get by. Probably interpretation of what is being said/done coupled with prompts/options.

Won’t do well against enemies with the knowledge of a protocol wafer and intent to embarrass. Would have to be an opponent willing to try conclusions with the sponsoring noble, so not a normal regular SOC interaction.

 

[aramis]

Going through a rigorous protocol/acculturation course would potentially be mandatory, if only to avoid embarrassment of the awarding noble.

WHo is, canonically, either an Archduke or the Emperor themself. And it's almost certain that, at a minimum, the actual investure is going to be the local count/duke (minor SS, major SS)

 

[kilemall]

WHo is, canonically, either an Archduke or the Emperor themself. And it's almost certain that, at a minimum, the actual investure is going to be the local count/duke (minor SS, major SS)

Yes in the OTU it all derives from the emperor’s authority. But the emperor does not know all potential inductees, I’m sure there is a vetting bureaucracy, I expect there is at least a nomination done by a noble somewhere along the line.

 

[Duke Craig]

I made that six, no seven, new characteristics.
Called them the SCP: Secondary Characteristic Profile.

Notes on UPP and SCP
Universal Personal Profile is a string representing physical and mental capacities.
Secondary Characteristic Profile represents additional attributes and may be used or ignored.
UPP: Str, Dex, End, Int, Edu, Cha, Soc
SCP: Agl, App, BM, Det, Ity, Per, Wil
Str = Strength, Dex = Dexterity, End = Endurance, Int = Intelligence, Edu = Education level, Cha = Charisma, Soc = Social Standing;
Agl = Agility, App = Appearance, BM = Body Mass, Det = Determination, Ity = Integrity, Per = Perception, Wil = Willpower.

The chalk didn't really stick...

 

[Cryton]

To the OP: Dunno what you should add to that mix. Best I can do is list what I use in my home games:

Str
Dex
End
Int
Edu
Chr

Soc
Influence

Psi

And occasionally San.

Set up as UPP 777777-7/2-7 San 7

 

[BackworldTraveller]

Reading this thread, I'm very confused.
Why are all these extra stats required? What does PER do that INT and EDU don't?
What does WIL or DET do that END doesn't?
To whom is APP relevant?
Why AGL and DEX?
SOC has always been a blunt instrument - particularly in the OGL where the bands 12-15 have been tied to Imperial Rank (and then found 4 ranks to be insufficiently broad for the later structures) - T5 has recognised that by adding Fame. Could that have been a replacement?
CHA has never been a comfortable replacement for it.

Someone once said that you know the design is done when there is nothing else you can take away. (Might have been paraphrasing Occam.)

 

[Condottiere]

Extra characteristics fleshes out a character.

Problem is, the more you add, the more complex the game mechanics.

You could subvert them, by having minimum mental and physical characteristics, and try to make subsidiary ones through the combination of the primaries with skill(s) [level(s)].

 

[mike wightman]

I want to add a perception characteristic because rolling to spot something occurs in just about every session of every rpg I have ever played, and in some games there is a perception skill, in others it is a talent, while in some it is a characteristic.

To my mind if perception is a critical ability that is necessary then it should be a characteristic in its own right.

Int - reasoning, Perception - noticing things, Determination - another name for willpower.

And again, in a lot of games something like willpower or determination keeps coming up on a session by session basis.

So I am going with

physical	Strength	Agility	Endurance
mental	Intelligence	Perception	Determination
	Education	Charisma	Social Status

The reason for agility rather than dexterity is I prefer the word agility

 

[kilemall]

Hmm most of those read to me like skills.

Nowadays I use SOC as social ability which means perception and self control. It can by used like charisma, but also intimidation.

Appearance I would roleplay out and would be mutable anyway.

BM would be useful, my primary use would be for food supply use. I’ve tried various formulas based on the physical stats, to unsatisfactory results. Revisiting this, I am thinking just use Strength for caloric needs and Endurance for efficiency of use.