Ageing by Tech Level

[BackworldTraveller]

The changes in actuarial statistics on Earth suggests that there should be a move of 1 term earlier for each tech level below 8 of the age at which ageing starts and possibly a -1 or -2 on aging DMs for each TL below TL8 too.

I've seen the Clement Sector aging tables...they seem to allow for technology affecting aging rates

Given the technologies available in Traveller, why no changes to aging effects by TL?

 

[Condottiere]

There are other factors involved, including access to healthcare, and environmental.

 

[atpollard]

Given the technologies available in Traveller, why no changes to aging effects by TL?

Just another thing to push all characters to TL 15 and render the whole TL concept meaningless.

(Sort of like the use of “Why not just import an air/raft?” as the solution that renders all lower TLs irrelevant … as in Q. How would a TL 5 world launch a weather or telecommunications satellite? A. “Why not just import an air/raft and when it is not flying, it can provide free electricity to a small city.”)

 

[Grav_Moped]

Just another thing to push all characters to TL 15 and render the whole TL concept meaningless.

(Sort of like the use of “Why not just import an air/raft?” as the solution that renders all lower TLs irrelevant … as in Q. How would a TL 5 world launch a weather or telecommunications satellite? A. “Why not just import an air/raft and when it is not flying, it can provide free electricity to a small city.”)

I think it was left out because it didn't occur to the writers -- putting a TL and availability constraints on anagathics was as far as they went.

Most of the historic increase in life expectancy at birth is essentially a product of reduced infant and child mortality.

 

[atpollard]

Most of the historic increase in life expectancy at birth is essentially a product of reduced infant and child mortality.

A good point.

In fact, I bet a 60 year old man in 1820 was more physically fit than a 60 year old man in 2020 is … suggesting that the aging rolls should get worse as TLs make life easier.

 

[kilemall]

I think it was left out because it didn't occur to the writers -- putting a TL and availability constraints on anagathics was as far as they went.

Most of the historic increase in life expectancy at birth is essentially a product of reduced infant and child mortality.

For our Travellers, advances in trauma/reconstructive surgery matters.

 

[Grav_Moped]

A good point.

In fact, I bet a 60 year old man in 1820 was more physically fit than a 60 year old man in 2020 is … suggesting that the aging rolls should get worse as TLs make life easier.

Unlikely. At the very least, dental technology has advanced significantly... and of course then there's the whole matter of antibiotics and antivirals.

 

[mike wightman]

Actually very likely - the sugary diet that is the bane of western society was not endemic back then; also physical labour and constant exercise make a big difference to general fitness. Then take into account that apart from Great Britain most of the world didn't need to worry about air quality.

Take a look at the number of deaths Germany has directly attributed to air quality changes/pollution since the shift away from nuclear and back to coal and gas.

Then there are the carcinogens in processed food, the chemical treatment of water etc. There is the old tale of Brits drinking tea or beer but never water being the reason for the lack of waterborne diseases in Britain compared with elsewhere.

The established fact is that the vastly greater rate of infant and child mortality skews the average lifespan perception, we should look instead at the data for percentage of population reaching each age bracket.

 

[Condottiere]

Diet, though that may be somewhat exaggerated for Georgian villagers existing on goat yogurt way past their centennial.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Then take into account that apart from Great Britain most of the world didn't need to worry about air quality.

Residential heating by wood or coal or peat, without comprehensive understanding of ventilation.

Horse-drawn vehicles in urban centers. Waste disposal was an issue, and dust...

Inconsistent -- at best -- food quality monitoring. Example: Swill Milk Scandal (1850s) (Wikipedia). Upton Sinclair's The Jungle was published in 1906, and in response the organization that would become the US Food and Drug Administration was created later that year.

Lead leaching from pewter dishes and utensils (newer pewter alloys no longer contain lead; I'm having difficulty seeing when this transition occurred).

Lead leaching from pipes.

Paint.

And so on. Look back at all the cool toys from back in the 1950s and 1960s that were later banned for safety reasons, and marvel that we all survived. Now imagine all the stuff that wasn't banned before then because there wasn't the regulatory structure in place to do that...

 

[Condottiere]

Lead in petroleum.

Supposedly, brain damage in kids dropped, at the same time.

 

[atpollard]

Care needs to be taken with this.
First, Traveller aging rolls only apply to ADULTS that have already reached the age that requires an aging roll … so infant and child mortality is as irrelevant as those killed during service when discussing “aging rolls”.

Then the aging rolls tend to impact PHYSICAL characteristics (STR, DEX, END) more than MENTAL characteristics (INT, EDU).

So from TL 0 to TL 7 (the available sample from which we can extrapolate), have 34 year old men become MORE or LESS physically active? Will the change in physical activity create a bonus or penalty to the aging roll at that age?

PERSONALLY, I think a 34 year old farmer (TL 2) might retain more of his 18 year old strength and endurance than a 34 year old Office Worker (TL 7). My great grandfather was a Master Blacksmith. I draw on a computer for 50 hours per week. Who would kick whose ass at age 60?

 

[Grav_Moped]

PERSONALLY, I think a 34 year old farmer (TL 2) might retain more of his 18 year old strength and endurance than a 34 year old Office Worker (TL 7).

Depends on how you define them. Repetitive stress injuries can reduce DEX, torn ligaments can impact STR, worn joints can affect END. Basic "fitness" doesn't render one immune to accumulated injuries. And lower TL living presents more opportunities for injury.

On the other hand, at least in the OTU, most player characters are definitionally in a group that's in contact with at least TL-9, and a lot of medical advances are about knowledge (sterile procedures, sanitation, antibiotics) rather than technology. Still, if you can't synthesize anesthetics or antibiotics, you're not going to be repairing torn ligaments very often; without precision machining of advanced materials, you're not going to be doing joint replacements (or they'll have limited life and need replacement).

 

[Condottiere]

Social and employment status influences this.

A famous and rich gladiator is going to be in top physical shape, constantly training, and very well cared for.

 

[mike wightman]

Barbarians and belters start at age 14...

As a young man I was fit, very fit - all arms commando course fit. Until my late thirties I was still physically active, gym, football three times a week.

And then due to having a growing family the football went down to once a week, gym visits stopped. By mid forties I would say I suffered a reduction of at least 2 to endurance and 1 to dexterity. Now in my mid fifties I would reduce my endurance by another point, my strength by one, keep dexterity.

Could I regain some endurance and str by hitting the gym - yes, But I would have to make my determination roll and I much prefer Elden Ring.

A quick sample of the people I went to school with (same class) most have suffered 'aging effects' several are dead only a handfull still maintain their youthful stats.

Look at medical date for people treated by age, that will give you a good indicator to start from. Until the age of 53 I had never been to hospital for treatment, in fact I only had one trip to the GP in all my adult life.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Look at medical date for people treated by age, that will give you a good indicator to start from. Until the age of 53 I had never been to hospital for treatment, in fact I only had one trip to the GP in all my adult life.

The baseline "health" level is technology-dependent. Vaccines and public health/sanitation play a role, as do general safety regulations (and the cultural assumptions that lead to those regulations -- which aren't specifically TL-linked, but tech enables safety to be cost-effective*).

Many of the diseases prevented by childhood vaccinations would otherwise result in hospitalization (if survived), and possibly lead to lifelong complications. Polio, for example.

-------------
* Early railroaders tended to be missing fingers. With the coupling technology of the time, the cost of preventing crush injuries from connecting railcars was "don't connect railcars" which was clearly not an option. Later self-locking couplers kept hands away from the couplers...

Likewise, crush zones in automobiles. Easy when you can do computer modeling to get close, costly when you have to do it by trial-and-error with pre-production full-size models.

 

[robject]

* Cue the scene in Wall-E where the ultra-high-tech space cruise has a bunch of immobile people whose bones have actually separated due to disuse and extended life in a fancy gravitic barca-lounger.

...but yes, I'm sure their dental-and-organ care IS top notch.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Many of the diseases prevented by childhood vaccinations would otherwise result in hospitalization (if survived), and possibly lead to lifelong complications. Polio, for example.

Though in fairness, this might not have a huge impact on the game, as the effects on stats might well occur prior to the character generation process. Post-polio syndrome could just manifest as a set of terrible aging rolls (or, conversely, could be the post hoc explanation for them).

The bottom line, IMO, is that the rules mechanism for aging applies to player characters who are operating in a TL-9+ civilization (though perhaps more precisely a TL-7 one, as that was where/when the writers established the baseline). PCs/NPCs at lower TLs might require slight modifications to the game mechanic.

 

[Condottiere]

Diet and exercise - maybe you get an extra saving throw against loss of ability points.

Also, imprison the radicals.

 

[whartung]

Diet and exercise - maybe you get an extra saving throw against loss of ability points.

Ya know what? Hard enough to watch my diet and get to the gym in the Real World, not going to track it in an RPG.

Also, imprison the radicals.

You talking some kind of anti-oxidant therapy here?