Agility - thoughts

[Carlobrand]

Book 2 has no agility. Drive is irrelevant other than moving you around the map. In Book-2, it was all about your computer and your piloting skill, which I infer meant you were doing your very best to make sure that laser hit your hull on an angled face to distribute the energy rather than on the perpendicular, since there was no real chance of getting out of its way at most combat ranges.

Book 5 introduced agility: given a big enough drive and enough spare power, you could make yourself very difficult to hit by "burning" hard in some random direction. Computers are still important. A good pilot can make a slight difference, but not so much as under Book 2, and there were different configurations but after the revision they really didn't matter much other than cost and streamlining. The agility rule stretched credulity but countered some of the nastiness of spinal mounts and big batteries. Still, it came with consequences: among other things, high agility fighters had no chance to hit other high agility fighters of equivalent electronics.

Thoughts? Is agility worth keeping? Should it be modified in some way?

 

[Spinward Flow]

Agility prevents space combat devolving into computer vs computer.

 

[mike wightman]

Take the computers out of moderns artillery, tanks, planes and ships. Then go up against an enemy that still has computer controlled artillery, tanks, planes and ships.

 

[kilemall]

One big thing to do is ditch line em up LBB5 and actually move that stuff around. Then accel/decel matters in terms of picking range, possibly increasing decreasing missile kinetic effects, or retaining current vee/course and using full speed agility for survival.

 

[Spinward Flow]

One big thing to do is ditch line em up LBB5 and actually move that stuff around.

At no point does LBB5 explicitly direct participants in space battles to "form musket lines" (or the equivalent) in space.
The distinction between Line and Reserve is basically a boolean (Y/N) ... are you in weapons range of your opponents?

• Y = Line (of battle)
• N = Reserve

In terms of relative positioning, there is no requirement for a "side by side, flying in formation" assumption.
The "line" of battle can in fact be a "spherical shape" within range of specific elements of an opposing force, rather than any kind of "tightly packed formation" that behaves like musket regiments in land warfare.

So even though the word "Line" is used, the 3D "shape" of the battle can be anything BUT a "line" of craft (small to big) in terms of actual positioning in 3D space. It's more a question of "who is in range to shoot at" more than anything else.

The whole notion of "blasting away at each other like musketeers" in LBB5.80 combat is basically a side effect of the fact that the only weapons that can't "reach" Long Range as defined by LBB5.80 are Plasma/Fusion Guns (which are Short Range only). There aren't any "long range sniper weapons" in CT. It's not like it's possible to gain a "range advantage" where you can shoot your opponents, but your opponents weapons "can't reach" far enough to return fire (aside from Plasma/Fusion Guns that are Short Range Only.

LBB5.80 combat is an "abstract theater of the mind" type of affair, where a LOT of the questions about positioning get simplified and streamlined.

 

[infojunky]

Book 2 has no agility. Drive is irrelevant other than moving you around the map. In Book-2, it was all about your computer and your piloting skill, which I infer meant you were doing your very best to make sure that laser hit your hull on an angled face to distribute the energy rather than on the perpendicular, since there was no real chance of getting out of its way at most combat ranges.

Ok, straight Book2 version of Agility is the Manuver/evade programs.

In Mayday the above requires 1g of thrust for the above.

Recently I have been pondering applying thrust to Pilot skill on a one to one basis for the defensive DM.

 

[kilemall]

At no point does LBB5 explicitly direct participants in space battles to "form musket lines" (or the equivalent) in space.
The distinction between Line and Reserve is basically a boolean (Y/N) ... are you in weapons range of your opponents?

• Y = Line (of battle)
• N = Reserve

In terms of relative positioning, there is no requirement for a "side by side, flying in formation" assumption.
The "line" of battle can in fact be a "spherical shape" within range of specific elements of an opposing force, rather than any kind of "tightly packed formation" that behaves like musket regiments in land warfare.

So even though the word "Line" is used, the 3D "shape" of the battle can be anything BUT a "line" of craft (small to big) in terms of actual positioning in 3D space. It's more a question of "who is in range to shoot at" more than anything else.

The whole notion of "blasting away at each other like musketeers" in LBB5.80 combat is basically a side effect of the fact that the only weapons that can't "reach" Long Range as defined by LBB5.80 are Plasma/Fusion Guns (which are Short Range only). There aren't any "long range sniper weapons" in CT. It's not like it's possible to gain a "range advantage" where you can shoot your opponents, but your opponents weapons "can't reach" far enough to return fire (aside from Plasma/Fusion Guns that are Short Range Only.

LBB5.80 combat is an "abstract theater of the mind" type of affair, where a LOT of the questions about positioning get simplified and streamlined.

Which is sad as they already had formation scissors/rock/paper in the game Double Star, could have reused it.

But really LBB5 in conjunction with TCS is a competitive design demolition derby.

I’ve already posted several times abstractly and the rules for maneuver, to include formation to create the line/reserve paradigm. It’s effectively a 100-10000 km bubble in which the line ships are exposed, firing and using EW to mask the precise locations of the reserve ships, which reside on the interior.

If an enemy has multiple fleets on different bearings to the main fleet, there have to be line ships on the other side of the bubble/spindle to provide masking in each direction.

All ships have to have the same course and acceleration/deceleration to maintain the formation. As the battle drags on, more ships lose maneuver and the fleet has to decide whether to maintain no change in course/vee while ships are being repaired, or salvage what crew and small craft can be and scuttle the too far gone vessels.

One thing that becomes clear to me is crew is a precious resource because it dictates repair rates, in the context of fleet survival it is often worth the scuttle in order to preserve and restore other ships to fighting line capability, or be able to run.

Another is that course and vee is everything to the battle results, so finding the enemy fleet before they find yours allows for optimal approach and firing time through best ranges.

In my version the normal batteries peter out at 900000 km, so only missiles and spinal weapons can fire at 1000000 km plus ranges.

Distance as determining factor of reserve status doesn’t really work if you are actually maneuvering the ships LBB2 style, too easy for maneuver 5/6 ships to rundown the reserves without the main fleet being able to turn and block or destroy reliably or the reserve to effectively run away.

 

[kilemall]

Ok, straight Book2 version of Agility in the Manuver/evade programs.

In Mayday the above requires 1g of thrust for the above.

Recently I have been pondering applying thrust to Pilot skill on a one to one basis for the defensive DM.

Are we talking Pilot-2 and Agility-3 can only achieve agility 2? If so seems like a common sense way to limit agility effects, and why hot shot pilots end up in fighter craft and high speed battlecruisers.

IIRC LBB5 rolls assume crew of Skill-2 across the board. I am not sure if you need Skill-3 or Skill-4 to start getting DMs.

 

[Spinward Flow]

If an enemy has multiple fleets on different bearings to the main fleet, there have to be line ships on the other side of the bubble/spindle to provide masking in each direction.

LBB5.80 has this natively (kinda sorta), such that hostile craft on the Line which are "unopposed" (meaning, no offensive weaponry on your side dedicated to that hostile craft) gets to take advantage of the Breakthrough Step, which permits firing upon the Reserve in the current combat turn.

In other words, if you've got a 2 on 1 situation, the 2 can "form up" together and attack in concert with each other ... or ... they can perform a "pincer" attack, effectively creating "2 lines of battle" for the beleaguered 1 trapped in the vise. If the 1 doesn't have sufficient craft to "screen in 2 directions" then one of the 2 attackers can (conceptually) flank the 1 defender and take advantage of the Breakthrough Step to savage the Reserve of the 1 outnumbered defender (who has been caught with their pants down, so to speak).

 

[kilemall]

LBB5.80 has this natively (kinda sorta), such that hostile craft on the Line which are "unopposed" (meaning, no offensive weaponry on your side dedicated to that hostile craft) gets to take advantage of the Breakthrough Step, which permits firing upon the Reserve in the current combat turn.

In other words, if you've got a 2 on 1 situation, the 2 can "form up" together and attack in concert with each other ... or ... they can perform a "pincer" attack, effectively creating "2 lines of battle" for the beleaguered 1 trapped in the vise. If the 1 doesn't have sufficient craft to "screen in 2 directions" then one of the 2 attackers can (conceptually) flank the 1 defender and take advantage of the Breakthrough Step to savage the Reserve of the 1 outnumbered defender (who has been caught with their pants down, so to speak).

To me this is just a reuse of the Imperium system and not worth giving it more credit than the simple quick kill ships fast mechanics. That and LBB5 is effectively ship to ship Imperium derby, although it’s not 1:1 re screens.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

LBB5.80 has this natively (kinda sorta), such that hostile craft on the Line which are "unopposed" (meaning, no offensive weaponry on your side dedicated to that hostile craft) gets to take advantage of the Breakthrough Step, which permits firing upon the Reserve in the current combat turn.

No, breakthrough only happens if the entire enemy line is completely silenced:

LBB5'80, p41:
BREAKTHROUGH STEP
A breakthrough occurs if all of one player's line of battle ships have been rendered incapable of firing any offensive weapons.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Book 5 introduced agility: given a big enough drive and enough spare power, you could make yourself very difficult to hit by "burning" hard in some random direction. Computers are still important. A good pilot can make a slight difference, but not so much as under Book 2, and there were different configurations but after the revision they really didn't matter much other than cost and streamlining. The agility rule stretched credulity but countered some of the nastiness of spinal mounts and big batteries. Still, it came with consequences: among other things, high agility fighters had no chance to hit other high agility fighters of equivalent electronics.

Thoughts? Is agility worth keeping? Should it be modified in some way?

It's simple and built into the system, delete it and you have to rebalance the entire system.

It's very natural to me: We are firing at fast moving and manoeuvring targets with considerable time-to-target delay. We don't know where the target is when we fire, only where it approximately was some time ago, much less where it will be when our fire arrives.


Computers are just a thinly veiled TL modifier, at least for warships.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

To me this is just a reuse of the Imperium system and not worth giving it more credit than the simple quick kill ships fast mechanics. That and LBB5 is effectively ship to ship Imperium derby, although it’s not 1:1 re screens.

It's not, it's just an orderly system to organise that any ship can fire at any other ship. It is not the same as the Imperium system.

 

[Spinward Flow]

No, breakthrough only happens if the entire enemy line is completely silenced:

LBB5'80, p41:
BREAKTHROUGH STEP
A breakthrough occurs if all of one player's line of battle ships have been rendered incapable of firing any offensive weapons.

The scenario I was drawing was that one faction needing to fight on TWO FRONTS ... meaning two lines of battle for a single fleet to defend.

• Fleet A = Attacker 1
• Fleet B = Defender
• Fleet C = Attacker 2

If Fleet B commits ALL of their "line of battle" to holding off Fleet A ... meaning that there are no assets available to intercept/waylay Fleet C (for whatever reason) coming in for a pincer attack from the opposite(-ish) side ... then Fleet C is facing "no offensive weapons" fielded by Fleet B and can Breakthrough Step into firing on Fleet B's reserves.

How could this happen?

Well, as described Fleet B committed ALL of their combatants to the "line of battle" with Fleet A ... leaving NO combatants capable of intercepting/waylaying Fleet C when they pincer attack Fleet B from a different direction.

If you need an example of what this can possibly look like in practice ... try this 2 minute fleet on fleet simulation on for size ...

 

[Condottiere]

1. Sithole.

2. Logistics.

3. Even then, if you decisively wipe out the main forces, you can probably continue on fumes until you get emergency resupplied, or expropriate the enemy's.

 

[infojunky]

Are we talking Pilot-2 and Agility-3 can only achieve agility 2? If so seems like a common sense way to limit agility effects, and why hot shot pilots end up in fighter craft and high speed battlecruisers.

IIRC LBB5 rolls assume crew of Skill-2 across the board. I am not sure if you need Skill-3 or Skill-4 to start getting DMs.

OK, to be clear I was speaking of Book2's Manuver/Evade Programs which provide a dm based on pilot skill. Sorry I was unclear..

 

[kilemall]

OK, to be clear I was speaking of Book2's Manuver/Evade Programs which provide a dm based on pilot skill. Sorry I was unclear..

Sounded like you were plugging in agility somewhere which those progs don’t do.

I would think just ponying up for auto/evade would do for less then ace pilots.

 

[Carlobrand]

MegaTraveller used a lot of the CT High Guard rules for their combat system. They put it on a hexboard, set weapon ranges, and so forth. They didn't have a reserve. There really wasn't a way to implement it. You could shoot a beam weapon straight past a craft in one hex and hit the craft in the next. You could maybe come up with a system where a craft hugged close to another craft in order to hide its own sensor image in the image of the other but that can get complicated, and it isn't going to protect the way Book 5 did.

Really, if what you're looking for is a way to protect carriers and tenders, the only way to do it is to keep them away from the battle. Space is big, those drives are pretty bright - at least in some versions - so if you've got the thrust and adequate eyes out there then you can stay away from any threats, maybe gather some fuel at some small ice body, make plans for rendezvous points, fuel up little couriers to jump back and call in reserves or tankers to withdraw, maybe retreat all the way back to the local kuiper belt, maybe establish a clandestine mobile kuiper belt or oort cloud refueling base, ...

 

[AnotherDilbert]

The scenario I was drawing was that one faction needing to fight on TWO FRONTS ... meaning two lines of battle for a single fleet to defend.

• Fleet A = Attacker 1
• Fleet B = Defender
• Fleet C = Attacker 2

Oh, house rules again.

LBB5 combat presumes two sides, two players:

LBB5'80, p38:
BATTLE FORMATION STEP
Both players form their ships into two lines each. The first is the line of battle; the second is the reserve.

 

[Condottiere]

There can be factions.

Sometimes, they change sides.