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Agility - thoughts

I'm not sure if I understood this. Can you elaborate?
My system is intended to put the two ship design systems in the same game, with LBB2 maneuver but mostly LBB5 resolution altered to a simplified unitary damage table with two hits most of the time per hit.

The damage is calculated off of EPs like the black globe rules, with EP damage calculated by x10 = tons and reduced in battery value per 100000 km range.

Missiles get a collective velocity kinetic increase impact to calc their damage, and nuclear missiles are straightforward battery damage (battery value 9 is 900 EPs or 9000 tons damage).

Problem is spinals are not linear in either taking damage to reduce their damage potential or reducing range, if one is using EP black globe damage. Dropping down a letter would actually increase its damage when the design intent is clearly to show older spinals deliver less damage for more power input.

So I had to dig into that subsystem and come up with class of weapon and drop it to the next spinal group for range purposes.

For reducing effectiveness after hits, I went with a 50% battery drop/90% drop/ disabled stepped approach, roll tonnage percentage or less to check fails.

Don’t know if that helps, a lot of this is context since most people don’t work in this hybrid make maneuver work realm.
 
Nice side effect of the tonnage based system, I know what it takes to scuttle ships, either major system destruction or whole hull breakup. I give bonuses to presited scuttle locations, nuke charges are your ship denial friends.
 
LBB5.80 has this natively (kinda sorta), such that hostile craft on the Line which are "unopposed" (meaning, no offensive weaponry on your side dedicated to that hostile craft) gets to take advantage of the Breakthrough Step, which permits firing upon the Reserve in the current combat turn.

In other words, if you've got a 2 on 1 situation, the 2 can "form up" together and attack in concert with each other ... or ... they can perform a "pincer" attack, effectively creating "2 lines of battle" for the beleaguered 1 trapped in the vise. If the 1 doesn't have sufficient craft to "screen in 2 directions" then one of the 2 attackers can (conceptually) flank the 1 defender and take advantage of the Breakthrough Step to savage the Reserve of the 1 outnumbered defender (who has been caught with their pants down, so to speak).
A breakthrough occurs if all of one player's line of battle ships have been rendered incapable of firing any offensive weapons. CT HG Book5 2ed pg 41

So, no, Outnumbering your opponent's line does not give you a breakthrough.
 
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So, no, Outnumbering your opponent's line does not give you a breakthrough.

[Here, let me draw a picture to illustrate.]

GFxlmpC.png


According to YOU:
Because Fleet 2 LINE has offensive weapons, the Fleet 2 LINE screens Fleet 2 RESERVE from BOTH the Fleet 1 LINE and the Fleet 3 LINE.

According to ME:
The Fleet 2 LINE (with offensive weapons) is screening the Fleet 2 RESERVE from the Fleet 1 LINE.
Because there is no Fleet 2 LINE (B) opposing the Fleet 3 LINE ... the Fleet 3 LINE is unopposed and can Breakthrough Step to attack Fleet 2 RESERVE.
So, no, Outnumbering your opponent's line does not give you a breakthrough.
Look at the extremely simplified picture I have drawn.
Fleet 2 LINE is positioned to successfully screen the Fleet 2 RESERVE from the Fleet 1 LINE ... but is NOT positioned to successfully screen the Fleet 2 RESERVE from the Fleet 3 LINE.
It's called a Pincer Move.
 
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My system is intended to put the two ship design systems in the same game, with LBB2 maneuver but mostly LBB5 resolution altered to a simplified unitary damage table with two hits most of the time per hit.

The damage is calculated off of EPs like the black globe rules, with EP damage calculated by x10 = tons and reduced in battery value per 100000 km range.

Missiles get a collective velocity kinetic increase impact to calc their damage, and nuclear missiles are straightforward battery damage (battery value 9 is 900 EPs or 9000 tons damage).

Problem is spinals are not linear in either taking damage to reduce their damage potential or reducing range, if one is using EP black globe damage. Dropping down a letter would actually increase its damage when the design intent is clearly to show older spinals deliver less damage for more power input.

So I had to dig into that subsystem and come up with class of weapon and drop it to the next spinal group for range purposes.

For reducing effectiveness after hits, I went with a 50% battery drop/90% drop/ disabled stepped approach, roll tonnage percentage or less to check fails.

Don’t know if that helps, a lot of this is context since most people don’t work in this hybrid make maneuver work realm.
What is a ton in terms of damage? I'm sorry, I know you've mentioned this elsewhere, but finding the post is being tricky.
 
Your pictures do not illustrate the rules as written. Your house rules are not canon.

You arrange your ships into two lines, the battle line and the reserve.

You arrange your battle line largest to smallest.

here, let me show you:

"Both players form their ships into two lines each. The first is the line of battle;
the second is the reserve. Ships in the line of battle may fire and be fired upon.
Ships in the reserve are screened; they may not fire and may not be fired upon
unless their defending line of battle is broken (see Breakthrough)."
 
[Here, let me draw a picture to illustrate.]

GFxlmpC.png


According to YOU:
Because Fleet 2 LINE has offensive weapons, the Fleet 2 LINE screens Fleet 2 RESERVE from BOTH the Fleet 1 LINE and the Fleet 3 LINE.

According to ME:
The Fleet 2 LINE (with offensive weapons) is screening the Fleet 2 RESERVE from the Fleet 1 LINE.
Because there is no Fleet 2 LINE (B) opposing the Fleet 3 LINE ... the Fleet 3 LINE is unopposed and can Breakthrough Step to attack Fleet 2 RESERVE.

Look at the extremely simplified picture I have drawn.
Fleet 2 LINE is positioned to successfully screen the Fleet 2 RESERVE from the Fleet 1 LINE ... but is NOT positioned to successfully screen the Fleet 2 RESERVE from the Fleet 3 LINE.
It's called a Pincer Move.
Unfortunately, the extremely simplified picture is wrong. [It has been] established that having the reserve at a distance from the line creates a problem in terms of how craft on a given side are moving from line to reserve or vice versa within the scope of the 20 minute turn. What seems to work best is having the reserve hug close to the line with active EM sensors off and power reduced to minimum necessary to keep position within the fleet, essentially hiding their sensor image among the sensor images of their fellows, while the line craft make as much "noise" as possible painting the opposing line with active ECM while using active sensors to lock weapons on targets. in that scenario, Fleet 3 is still faced with being unable to discriminate Fleet 2 reserve craft from the louder Fleet 2 line craft because they're so close together and are obliged to target the stronger signals. This incidentally explains why craft in reserve can't fire back when a breakthrough occurs.
 
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What seems to work best is having the reserve hug close to the line with active EM sensors off and power reduced to minimum necessary to keep position within the fleet, essentially hiding their sensor image among the sensor images of their fellows, while the line craft make as much "noise" as possible painting the opposing line with active ECM while using active sensors to lock weapons on targets.
Is that what LBB5.80, p38 says is what is happening?
Both players form their ships into two lines each. The first is the line of battle; the second is the reserve. Ships in the line of battle may fire and be fired upon. Ships in the reserve are screened; they may not fire and may not be fired upon unless their defending line of battle is broken (see Breakthrough).
Nothing about "having the reserve hug close to the line with active EM sensors off and power reduced to minimum necessary to keep position within the fleet, essentially hiding their sensor image among the sensor images of their fellows, while the line craft make as much "noise" as possible painting the opposing line with active ECM while using active sensors to lock weapons on targets" to be found there.

I'm interpreting that ships that may not fire nor be fired upon are out of range of the offending line of battle unless the defensive line of battle is broken through (see Breakthrough). To my mind that means that the Reserve is BEHIND THE LINE of battle.
 
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GFxlmpC.png


According to ME:
The Fleet 2 LINE (with offensive weapons) is screening the Fleet 2 RESERVE from the Fleet 1 LINE.
Because there is no Fleet 2 LINE (B) opposing the Fleet 3 LINE ... the Fleet 3 LINE is unopposed and can Breakthrough Step to attack Fleet 2 RESERVE.
High guard has no mechanism for a second attacking fleet, or a battle of three fleets. So, you're making up a scenario outside the CT HG rules.
As to how I would handle it, it would be all three (or 4, on N ) fleets form up, each with line and reserve, and screening screens against everyone.

Just as breaking off by acceleration can separate a fleet and pursuers into new battles, you could also break it into two different actions.

But whatever you do in that situation, your "screened only from one fleet" scenario is the silliest, and if my GM pulled something like that, I'd complain.
 
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So, to be clear, CT Book 5 is an abstract rule set. CT Book 5 itself does not provide a way to translate it to a hex map. I don't know of a CT supplement that does, though my knowledge of CT is not total and there may be something among one of the JTAS editions offering guidance. MT took Book 5 in the course of coming up with its own hex map combat system, but it did not include reserve rules. Ergo, any rule that translates CT Book 5 to a hex map is, by its nature, a house rule and not an official rule.

Should one wish to house rule a translation to hex map, it is best but by no means required that the house rules emulate the abstract model from which it was drawn, to the extent possible. Under the CT Book 5 abstract rules, a craft must be able to transition from line to reserve or vice versa within the 20-minute turn, specifically during the Battle Formation step. The nature of Newtonian movement limits the change a craft can make in 20 minutes, which sets a maximum on how far apart the line and reserve can be while still being able to shift from one to the other within the turn. Also, under the CT Book 5 abstract rules, the reserve is at no time a potential target for the opposing fleet unless a breakthrough occurs, which is defined as "all of one player's line of battle ships have been rendered incapable of firing any offensive weapons". Your model is capable of neither.

You propose an arrangement by which an opposing force can move around the player's line to set up a line in the rear of the reserve and attack from there. As Mike Wightman points out, your proposal is not canon: Book 5 does not support moving around the line to attack the reserve from the rear. Neither does MT, the rule set that tries to bring Book 5 to hex map; MT addresses the problem by not having a reserve. Your proposal, despite the dramatic and very emphatic manner in which you present it, is therefore not supported by canon and not an effective emulation of canon inasmuch as it creates a situation which CT Book 5 canon does not create. My proposal, however speculative it might be, however much you may object to it, has the advantage of emulating canon with respect to the ability to transition from line to reserve and vice versa and with respect to the reserve being protected.

Now, neither your proposal nor my proposal are canon. They're both house rules; mine simply does a slightly better job of reflecting Book-5 canon. Not perfect, but my reserve is protected as it is in CT Book 5 and craft can shift between line and reserve as they do in CT book 5. This opens up potential game scenarios such as escorts protecting merchants from attackers.

You are absolutely free to imagine an enemy fleet flanking around and hitting a reserve in the rear. It's clear you want that to happen very badly. It's just not how CT Book 5 handles it and, as MegaTraveller shows us, there simply would not be a reserve if it could not be protected.
 
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Rule 1) No personal attacks. You may attack ideas, subjects, or documentation. However you will not get personal at all.

... nuff said, good discussion.
 
Book 2 has no agility. Drive is irrelevant other than moving you around the map. In Book-2, it was all about your computer and your piloting skill, which I infer meant you were doing your very best to make sure that laser hit your hull on an angled face to distribute the energy rather than on the perpendicular, since there was no real chance of getting out of its way at most combat ranges.

Book 5 introduced agility: given a big enough drive and enough spare power, you could make yourself very difficult to hit by "burning" hard in some random direction. Computers are still important. A good pilot can make a slight difference, but not so much as under Book 2, and there were different configurations but after the revision they really didn't matter much other than cost and streamlining. The agility rule stretched credulity but countered some of the nastiness of spinal mounts and big batteries. Still, it came with consequences: among other things, high agility fighters had no chance to hit other high agility fighters of equivalent electronics.

Thoughts? Is agility worth keeping? Should it be modified in some way?
I don't use any agility rules for making a ship harder to hit. They make no sense. Example: Lets say "agility" of 1 gave you a tenth more G for the maneuver. That's roughly 1 - 6 meters per second per second. The laser turret tracking your ship fires a weapon that travels at 2.998e+8 meters/sec and is guided by radar that rates 2.998e+8 meters/sec /2 as it has to travel the distance between the attacking ship and the target ship twice. The size of the target ship in meters is significantly large enough that the small addition of thrust is meaningless in its getting hit or not.
 
If you go back to original HG80 agility only affected spinal mounts. it was later changed to a universal DM.

I have been campaigning for years that there should be more differentiation between spinals, bays and turret batteries.

All it would take is an expanded USP and a modification to the agility DM and armour DM on the damage tables.

But hey ho
 
Let me offer a different perspective. This is how it was usually understood when I started playing.

Agility is powered thrust.
If you have a 6G maneuver drive, you can only actually accelerate at 6G by putting in power equivalent to Power Plant-6. A ship with a 6G drive and Agility-2 would thus only be able to maneuver at 2Gs unless using emergency agility. This is also the reason a ship is required to have a power plant rating equal to or higher than the maneuver drive rating.

In essence, this is a very simplified version of a power management system. The maneuver drive rating is the maximum thrust you can get by putting in maximum energy - but other systems require energy too, so if you don't have a large enough power plant, using your weapons will prevent you from using your rated maximum thrust.

This view is supported by the fact that HG agility as used in the breaking off and pursuit mechanics clearly reflects a ship's overall maneuverability (i.e. acceleration). A lower agility ship is directly referred to as a slower ship.

Things are muddled a bit by the way emergency agility was actually implemented. It allowed you to still use your computer and screens. The computer (and nuclear dampers) require negligible power in relative terns in large vessels - but meson screens do not. Things would be more clear-cut if we were actually talking about a power management subsystem, but the HG design system was too low-resolution for that.
 
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I don’t get the agility-2 aspect of that interpretation, at all.

The ship can accel if it has full power available to put to full capacity use of the mDrives. If the power plant only has enough left over for Agility-2 with everything powered, then Agility-2 is its accel.

If nothing else the escape rules make this explicit, higher agility means escape, even or lower means no escape, hence the emergency agility allocation override.
 
I don’t get the agility-2 aspect of that interpretation, at all.
Neither do I.
It means that CT canon ship classes such as the Gazelle and the Azhanti High Lightning cannot accelerate because their Agility=0 (too many EP's spent on computers, screens and weapons). It turns entire starship classes into pillboxes that don't move ... except by "emergency" agility measures.

That notion doesn't even pass the laugh test, let alone the smell test.

Agility is literally the capacity for evasion (of hostile weapons fire, of pursuit, etc.). It is a factor that is derived from the EP budget that can be allocated to the maneuver drive, with the maneuver drive code putting an upper limit on how high Agility can go (at least in CT).



What do TL=6-7 Flyers call it when they go up in "a hurtlin' piece of machinery" and try to shoot each other down, especially in a dogfight?

TURN AND BURN

"Turn" relates to the agility of their craft. How tight the turning radius is. How quickly they can alter course (preferably evasively).
"Burn" relates to the thrust power of their craft. How fast it can go ... what the top speed is ... that kind of thing.

No Flyer (who knows what they're talking about) would describe what they do as "Burn and Burn" ... or "Turn and Turn" ... because they make the mistake of thinking that the agility of their craft = thrust power of their engines, therefore the two concepts ("turn" and "burn") are equivalent and therefore interchangeable (and therefore functionally the same concept).



Likewise, in other vehicle types, you've got the concept of high speed but no agility/turning necessary ... such as drag racers. There, it's all about power to weight, (traction) thrust in a straight line down the raceway, no need for extreme turning ability. You "burn rubber" but you aren't exactly trying to slalom your way to victory.



I am still trying (probably in vain) to convince people that Agility IS NOT INTERCHANGEABLE WITH Maneuver Acceleration and that it is an error of the first order to make that assumption. Agility is derived from and dependent upon the Maneuver Drive and EP budget details, but Agility in and of itself is NOT "maneuver drive acceleration" ... full stop ... in the same way that the maximum speed of an airframe or a ground vehicle does not automatically define how "nimbly" those craft can be handled or what sort of turning radius they might have.

How "fast" you can go in a straight line (Agility=0) is not the same as being able to rapidly pitch/yaw/roll your craft in space to come to a new heading and apply acceleration thrust/bring weapons to bear on a new course heading/trajectory (Agility=1-6). Higher maneuver drive ratings CAN have higher agility ratings ... if they dedicate the requisite EP budget towards agility ... but maneuver acceleration is NOT THE SAME as agility. They're related concepts and agility derives from (and is limited by) maneuver capacity, but agility and maneuver acceleration are not different words for the same concept.



Kind of like how all squares are rectangles ... but not all rectangles are squares, in geometry.
If you start from the mistaken assumption that because all squares are rectangles THEREFORE all rectangles must also be squares ... you're going to be making a BIG MISTAKE on a foundational assumption.

Squares are a subset of rectangles, rather than all rectangles necessarily being squares.
Same notion applies when it comes to equating Agility with Maneuver Acceleration.

If you (very very simplistically) assume that Maneuver Acceleration is "long" and Agility is "wide" ... those two parameters CAN BE equal (6 long, 6 wide) but they don't automatically HAVE TO BE equal in all circumstances for all craft. To extend the geometric analogy further, it's always perfectly possible for something to be "longer than wider" (more maneuver capacity than agility), but the reverse is not possible, so you can never have a performance envelope that is "wider than it is long" (more agility than maneuver capacity). Ideally speaking, both parameters are equal (so you get a square that is "as long as it is wide") but that isn't always going to be the case.

For example, a fighter craft capable of Maneuver-6 and Agility-6 could CHOOSE to accelerate at 2G while still retaining its Agility-6 evasiveness for rapid alterations of bearing, trajectory and course. However, if that same fighter were damaged and only capable of mustering Maneuver-2, then its maximum performance would be to accelerate up to 2G @ Agility-2 (because, damaged).



For the purposes of our discussion here on these forums, the obvious conclusion is that LBB5.80 tried to "oversimplify things too much" by relying on Agility exclusively to escape from combat engagements. Obviously there should have been:
  • Break Off By Maneuver
    1. Break Off By Acceleration (highest maneuver drive code wins, basically drag racing to outrun your opponents, forcing a disengagement/escape out of range)
    2. Break Off By Agility (highest agility code wins, basically out-evading your opponents such that they can't follow/tail your maneuvers, forcing a disengagement/break off escape)
The simplest solution to this particular "failure" of LBB5.80 combat RAW is to house rule that either option is possible, but must be declared at the top of the combat round. The faction won Initiative for the combat round may (at the beginning) determine which of the two options (acceleration or agility) will be used to determine success during the appropriate step towards the end of the combat turn.

However, as we all know ... there are RAW purists everywhere, so I don't expect to get far with that line of argument either. :cautious:
 
Ooooo disagree with that.

Agility in airplane terms derive from how readily they can use control surfaces to turn, lift etc. while using the least energy doing so. The burn just means thrust which in combination with lift and streamlining determines how fast the plane can go through atmosphere and climb.


But there is no atmosphere in space. Well not enough for streamlining or control/lift surfaces. Or gravity fields exerting force down, in most cases.

So, acceleration is it, along with maneuvering thrusters of the reaction or gravitic kind.

The proper distinction therefore is whether thrust is being used to alter vee and/or base course vs maneuver thrusting to random attitudes for the purposes of hit reduction.

EM theory for all the inputs that quantify aircraft in atmo-

 
Orbital Mechanics.

Space is not flat and ships do not actually move in a straight line. Therefore linear acceleration along an orbit will just lift you to a higher orbit allowing an enemy to match your position and possibly even overtake you because they are in a lower orbit.

AGILITY allows a ship to change the axis of the orbit or its eccentricity, which DOES allow a fleet to break off when two fleets are in nearly identical parallel orbits shooting at each other.

So agility allows for RELATIVE acceleration between the fleets, rather than absolute acceleration by changing orbit (off-axis acceleration).
 
Orbital Mechanics.

Space is not flat and ships do not actually move in a straight line. Therefore linear acceleration along an orbit will just lift you to a higher orbit allowing an enemy to match your position and possibly even overtake you because they are in a lower orbit.

AGILITY allows a ship to change the axis of the orbit or its eccentricity, which DOES allow a fleet to break off when two fleets are in nearly identical parallel orbits shooting at each other.
Agility in that scenario is just acceleration, just orbital closure not straight line, and IMO not the default use case for what agility means in LBB5.
 
Agility in that scenario is just acceleration, just orbital closure not straight line, and IMO not the default use case for what agility means in LBB5.
Orbital velocities are typically high enough that acceleration is just a tiny fraction of the current velocity.
Earth orbital velocity around the Sun is over 100,000 kph (30 km/s) … so how much will a 6G (60 m/s) acceleration really change current velocity in your orbit around the sun? It is off-orbit acceleration to increase eccentricity that will give you range between the fleets as you travel that fast. That is “breaking off”.
 
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