AHL deckplans officially retconned?

[McPerth]

It's been stated a number of times that the original intent for the Azhantis was longitudal decks, rather than a pancake stack.

This answer has always been delivered indirectly, and taken on faith.

That is what was answered before to this. I personally don't know:

They are in the new MgT High Guard second edition.

A couple of people on the Mongoose forums commented on them and the reply was that it is an official change and that they were always meant to be like that according to 'discussions'.

Then they haven't looked at Marc's notes on his original drawing... available on DTRPG.

Regardles what were initial thoughts, though, IMHO once they were released (and probably among the most used deckplans, thanks to the game), changing them is an error if you want to keep the old grognards.

 

[Condottiere]

Whether or not it was a mistake, or an attempt to save on production costs, I like resultant high rise design.

My suspicion is that the new layout fits in with all the other ship designs.

So it's canon for Mongoose, and there's no word from God disavowing it and casting them forth to wander in the desert.

You can easily redact those four pages in the new High Guard.

 

[mike wightman]

It's been stated a number of times that the original intent for the Azhantis was longitudal decks, rather than a pancake stack.

This answer has always been delivered indirectly, and taken on faith.

And it is just not true.

Marc's original draft of the AHL is on drivethru and it clearly shows the classic tower block which went on to become the deck plans in the boxed set, the MT folio adventure, and the MgT Fighting Ships supplement.
At the scale the capital ship deck plans are rendered in HG2e the correct decks could have been included if an extra page were allocated.

 

[Condottiere]

I disagree with the decision, but I was never going to be consulted anyway.

It also seems unlikely to revised for this publication cycle.

 

[mike wightman]

It hasn't gone to print yet... or has it?

 

[Nightwind1]

And it is just not true.

Marc's original draft of the AHL is on drivethru and it clearly shows the classic tower block which went on to become the deck plans in the boxed set, the MT folio adventure, and the MgT Fighting Ships supplement.
At the scale the capital ship deck plans are rendered in HG2e the correct decks could have been included if an extra page were allocated.

Here is MWM's original sketch of the AHL. The red circle is mine, pointing out the numbering of the decks BY MWM OVER THIRTY YEARS AGO.

 

[flg]

It's been stated a number of times that the original intent for the Azhantis was longitudal decks, rather than a pancake stack.

This answer has always been delivered indirectly, and taken on faith.

Nobody's ever provided a source for those statements though (and if the original intent was longitudinal decks, why wasn't that done in the first place?). And when it did come up, nobody wanted to reveal the source of that intent, though some claimed that DonM was the source (but apparently he died before the deckplans were sorted, so probably not?).

There's been a lot of shuffling around, looking at the ground, saying "ooo, look at that shiny!" and other misdirection going on here. Nobody's just manning up and saying "I said this". Matt or MWM need to step up here and just answer the damn question.

(I mean it makes no difference either way to me. But I think it is important that somebody authoritative and knowledgeable and directly involved in the process explains the situation clearly here, then that will close the matter. The only reason this is going on for so long is that nobody is doing that).

 

[Condottiere]

I'm still going slowly through the book, but if you compare the current set of ship blueprints, my speculation is that it was decided to standardize them, which meant straightening out the Azhantis.

 

[flg]

Here is MWM's original sketch of the AHL. The red circle is mine, pointing out the numbering of the decks BY MWM OVER THIRTY YEARS AGO.

Thank you! Something useful at last.

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/76408/CTG03a-Azhanti-High-Lightning-Original-Draft-Drawing

You can see it in the pdf preview there.

And while it's not 100% explicit there, it's really strongly implied that those numbers down the side of the drawing are indeed decks - there are comments along side them saying things like "gundeck" where the turrets are, and areas divided off as "10 fuel decks" which correspond to 10 numbers. So if those are decks (as they really do appear to be), the ship is very clearly in 'skyscraper' format there.

There's also an elevator shaft sticking out above the bridge (and below the launch tubes too), further indicating that the bridge is the "top", not the "front".

So the "original intent was longitudinal" argument is clearly baseless, and it was always intended to be 'skyscraper format' - which means either someone at Mongoose made the change and was attempting to cover their arse by lying about it and hoping nobody would question it, or something got miscommunicated somewhere (and it's the latter, right? Because lying in such an amateurish way wouldn't do here, would it).

 

[aramis]

Thank you! Something useful at last.

http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/76408/CTG03a-Azhanti-High-Lightning-Original-Draft-Drawing

You can see it in the pdf preview there.

And while it's not 100% explicit there, it's really strongly implied that those numbers down the side of the drawing are indeed decks - there are comments along side them saying things like "gundeck" where the turrets are, and areas divided off as "10 fuel decks" which correspond to 10 numbers. So if those are decks (as they really do appear to be), the ship is very clearly in 'skyscraper' format there.

There's also an elevator shaft sticking out above the bridge (and below the launch tubes too), further indicating that the bridge is the "top", not the "front".

So the "original intent was longitudinal" argument is clearly baseless, and it was always intended to be 'skyscraper format' - which means either someone at Mongoose made the change and was attempting to cover their arse by lying about it and hoping nobody would question it, or something got miscommunicated somewhere (and it's the latter, right? Because lying in such an amateurish way wouldn't do here, would it).

Would not be the first time they got caught in a lie. Such as content listings for the (now vaporware) Traveller Prime Directive... that cause SVC to publicly blow a gasket.

 

[flg]

Would not be the first time they got caught in a lie.

To be fair, I don't know if Mongoose themselves claimed that the original intent was horizontal or if that came from other people in the playtest, which is why I left the question open. I'd prefer to think that someone in the chain misunderstood something than outright lied about it.

Still, if the books did go through the approval process (which Matt claims they did), then how did this get missed? Ultimately the responsibility is with the people who approved the change, isn't it? So either they were OK with it (which means that they should come here and say that was what happened), or they didn't notice it (which means that the approval process isn't very effective).

 

[DickNervous]

Not that I want to throw gas on the fire, and I completely understand the arguments that Mongoose went and changed an iconic ship, but......

I was looking through the files from the CT CD and noticed that the only place the AHL deck plans are detailed is in "CT G03 Game 03a Azhanti High Lightning Complete" (and two files split from this) and "CT 05 Supplement 05 Lightning Class Cruisers". The first of which is a ruleset for a miniatures game and the second a supplement for use with that game (at least based upon the title of the book). While the books do not have a complete deck plan of the entire ship, it does list them in such a way that you can (safely) assume that they were laid out like a building, with 84 decks.

Now perhaps I am being naive here, but isn't it possible that the detailed deck plans were organized like a "skyscraper" simply to make it easier to print and play the miniatures game? Otherwise the deck plans would be very large and, at that time, prohibitively expensive to print for a retail game.

The reason I mention this is that the other reference I found to AHL is in "CT S09 Supplement 09 Fighting Ships" where on page 31 it clearly shows an image of a 60,000 ton "Frontier Cruiser" (which is identified as the AHL in the comments) flying "belly down", which would appear to support the layout that Mongoose published.

However, the bottom line is that, quite honestly, it doesn't really matter. We can use either layout, or even create our own. After all, it isn't the first time that a newer book has been published that has changed some previously published "fact", nor will it likely be the last.

Now I will take my 2cr, step tot the side, and keep my mouth shut.

 

[McPerth]

I was looking through the files from the CT CD and noticed that the only place the AHL deck plans are detailed is in "CT G03 Game 03a Azhanti High Lightning Complete" (and two files split from this) and "CT 05 Supplement 05 Lightning Class Cruisers". The first of which is a ruleset for a miniatures game and the second a supplement for use with that game (at least based upon the title of the book). While the books do not have a complete deck plan of the entire ship, it does list them in such a way that you can (safely) assume that they were laid out like a building, with 84 decks.

CT:S5 Lightning Class Cruisers was (IIRC) released initially only as a part of the game, and has the deailed deckplans for all the decks, as the game does.

Its deckplans also appear in MT Arrival Vengeance and and (partially, not all the maps) in the Challenge #42, pages 50-51, as part of the amber zone Ressearch Station Beta.

Now perhaps I am being naive here, but isn't it possible that the detailed deck plans were organized like a "skyscraper" simply to make it easier to print and play the miniatures game? Otherwise the deck plans would be very large and, at that time, prohibitively expensive to print for a retail game.

As I already commented, that's quite posible. A deckplan of the Azhanti as belly sitter would be over 2 m long, and difficult playing the tactical game on it.

The reason I mention this is that the other reference I found to AHL is in "CT S09 Supplement 09 Fighting Ships" where on page 31 it clearly shows an image of a 60,000 ton "Frontier Cruiser" (which is identified as the AHL in the comments) flying "belly down", which would appear to support the layout that Mongoose published.

I would not say the fact of appearing in vertical or horitzontal stance in the pictures in S9 means anything about its internal layout. If so;

• the Atlantis and the Kikirrak (appearing in vertical stance) would be skyscrapper internal layout (IDK if that's true).
• the Broadsword, that appears in diagonal stance should have diagonal internal layout?
• And the Plankwell would be the funniest of all, as it appears vertical on its side...

However, the bottom line is that, quite honestly, it doesn't really matter. We can use either layout, or even create our own. After all, it isn't the first time that a newer book has been published that has changed some previously published "fact", nor will it likely be the last.

Sure, but just the fact of not having identifies it with one of the ships whose internal layout was better detailed would have avoided enraging the grognards...

 

[Nightwind1]

Not that I want to throw gas on the fire, and I completely understand the arguments that Mongoose went and changed an iconic ship, but......

I was looking through the files from the CT CD and noticed that the only place the AHL deck plans are detailed is in "CT G03 Game 03a Azhanti High Lightning Complete" (and two files split from this) and "CT 05 Supplement 05 Lightning Class Cruisers". The first of which is a ruleset for a miniatures game and the second a supplement for use with that game (at least based upon the title of the book). While the books do not have a complete deck plan of the entire ship, it does list them in such a way that you can (safely) assume that they were laid out like a building, with 84 decks.

Now perhaps I am being naive here, but isn't it possible that the detailed deck plans were organized like a "skyscraper" simply to make it easier to print and play the miniatures game? Otherwise the deck plans would be very large and, at that time, prohibitively expensive to print for a retail game.

The reason I mention this is that the other reference I found to AHL is in "CT S09 Supplement 09 Fighting Ships" where on page 31 it clearly shows an image of a 60,000 ton "Frontier Cruiser" (which is identified as the AHL in the comments) flying "belly down", which would appear to support the layout that Mongoose published.

However, the bottom line is that, quite honestly, it doesn't really matter. We can use either layout, or even create our own. After all, it isn't the first time that a newer book has been published that has changed some previously published "fact", nor will it likely be the last.

Now I will take my 2cr, step tot the side, and keep my mouth shut.

You also forgot MT "Arrival Vengeance", which has deckplans based on the original, but even MORE detailed in certain respects. Including the Bridge of the ship, the Lounge Deck and other decks, and a side-view cutaway that shows over 80 decks, bow-to-stern.

 

[Whipsnade]

The only surprising in all of this is that some of you still find it surprising.

The nature of Mongoose as a company has been obvious to anyone paying attention from the first. Complaining now that Mongoose has ▮▮▮▮ed up the AHL deckplans when Mongoose has been constantly ▮▮▮▮ing up Traveller from their very first product is a case of locking the barn door after the horse escapes. Actually, it's more a case of locking the barn door after the horse escaped, lived a long life, died, and it's corpse rendered down for glue.

Mongoose ▮▮▮▮ed up the AHL deckplans and is now lying about that ▮▮▮▮ up for the same reason the scorpion stung the turtle: It's what Mongoose does and it's what Mongoose is.

And if that's suddenly new to you, you haven't been paying attention.

The solution to all this is simple: Don't buy Mongoose products.

Money is the only thing they listen to. Not MWM, not DonM, not Robject, and most definitely not you. Hit them in the wallet and they'll start paying attention.

 

[atpollard]

[m;] Thread Closed. [/m;]

There has been more than enough heat and far too little light for a while now.

After so many pages, there seems nothing new to be said and only flame wars and infractions ahead.

If there is an official announcement, one of the Administrators will post it.
Until then, go play Traveller or some other activity that brings pleasure to you and no grief to me.