AHL deckplans officially retconned?
- Thread starter mike wightman
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That's why I said all they needed to do was call it "Azhanti High Lightning Mk II" and this kerfluffle would have been avoided.
:devil: Mark II woulkd imply an improvement :devil:
:rofl:
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Could have retconned it as saying that it's a subclass built at different shipyards.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
The reason you get a class discount is that you are building them all to the same set of plans - this is mentioned in too many places to need to find a quote.
So you do not have AHL built and the different shipyards using different plans.
The AHL is probably the best described ship in Traveller canon, we know when and where they were built, we know how they were deployed and we know their eventual fates; to willfully change the deckplans because of a friend of a friend story is ridiculous.
So you do not have AHL built and the different shipyards using different plans.
The AHL is probably the best described ship in Traveller canon, we know when and where they were built, we know how they were deployed and we know their eventual fates; to willfully change the deckplans because of a friend of a friend story is ridiculous.
Nightwind1
SOC-12
Especially since the original design sketches from GDW (which are available for purchase from FFE on Drivethrurpg.com) clearly show the decks are laid out as a "tail-sitter". They're even numbered bow to stern, not vertically.
Don't like the new deck plans. Mongoose 1e plans are marvelously complex and lavishly detailed in comparison.
I do not have the book yet. Costs too much money right now. Besides the use of the wording "Frontier Cruiser" does the entry for this cruiser or chapter it is in use specific OTU words like "Lightning Class Cruiser" or "Azhanti High Lightning" or "Third Imperium"? Does it have specific OTU buzzwords like Zhodani, or Vargr and such?
I do not have the book yet. Costs too much money right now. Besides the use of the wording "Frontier Cruiser" does the entry for this cruiser or chapter it is in use specific OTU words like "Lightning Class Cruiser" or "Azhanti High Lightning" or "Third Imperium"? Does it have specific OTU buzzwords like Zhodani, or Vargr and such?
Nightwind1
SOC-12
No, but the outline of the ship on the plans is the same as the over-head view of a Lightning Class Frontier Cruiser. And apparently (though I don't have the book), MgT's earlier Fighting Ships book had the correct layout of decks (or so I've been told).
AndrewW the admin for the Mongoose Publishing Traveller forum. He would be part of Matt Sprange's "inner circle" yes?
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
The originals and Mongoose Classic blueprints still exist, so if you don't like this development, you can painlessly ignore it.
Nightwind1
SOC-12
That's not the point, though. If the plans were just a slight internal rearrangement or something, we wouldn't be complaining as much. But they took an 80+ deck ship and turned it into a six deck ship. And then tried to laugh it off as "oh, it was always meant to be that way. The three other times that this ship's deck plans were published by GDW, and the one time by us, were all wrong. It was never meant to be a 'tail-sitter'". (not their exact wording, but essentially that's what they are saying)
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
It's implied that the intent was always, let's say standard deck template.
Three issues:
1. Who's the author of this decision?
2. What was his original intent?
3. Is he willing to publicly make his case?
Like the Extended Universe of Star Wars, I've decided to ignore it.
Three issues:
1. Who's the author of this decision?
2. What was his original intent?
3. Is he willing to publicly make his case?
Like the Extended Universe of Star Wars, I've decided to ignore it.
Jeez people.
I liked the old Frontier cruiser when the boxed game came out. It was an experiment in ship design by Traveller, a huge ship with maps for every 80+ decks. You just need to make some decks multiples needing the same map. It worked. It was unique but, for addition in any other book with deck plans, it was a horror to display. Suddenly just showing the representative decks was page count waster.
I see no problem with Mongoose deciding to make the Azhanti deck plans simpler if a ref really wants to use the ship's deck plans in a game. THIS IS A FRIKKIN' GAME. Things can change yet still be the same. People decided to make the deck plans playable. I've seen other deck plans, even the scout, rearrange over the years and never heard so much whining and gnashing of teeth. It was accepted and the Traveller Universe did not collapse.
I liked the old Frontier cruiser when the boxed game came out. It was an experiment in ship design by Traveller, a huge ship with maps for every 80+ decks. You just need to make some decks multiples needing the same map. It worked. It was unique but, for addition in any other book with deck plans, it was a horror to display. Suddenly just showing the representative decks was page count waster.
I see no problem with Mongoose deciding to make the Azhanti deck plans simpler if a ref really wants to use the ship's deck plans in a game. THIS IS A FRIKKIN' GAME. Things can change yet still be the same. People decided to make the deck plans playable. I've seen other deck plans, even the scout, rearrange over the years and never heard so much whining and gnashing of teeth. It was accepted and the Traveller Universe did not collapse.
Actually, it triggered a Rebellion, led to the Assasination of an Emperor, split the timline creating a reality paradox, caused ships and appliances to become sentient and kill biological beings, created a wave that caused many people to go mad and ultimately led to the collapse of the Third Imperium.
I guess you didn't get the note. :rofl:
Nightwind1
SOC-12
But there's a big difference. The different models of Type-S Scout (for example), are all the same basic tonnage, but may have different deckplan layouts, etc. But they are all oriented the same way (ie: belly-sitters, like an aircraft).
However, a Frontier Cruiser (which the Lightning-class are called, and which this new version is called) has always been an 80+ deck "tail-sitter", not a six-deck "belly-sitter".
I've got no problem with a ship of the same tonnage of a Frontier Cruiser having six decks in a belly-sitter configuration, but not with the same shaped hull as the Frontier Cruiser, and oriented in a completely different way than a Frontier Cruiser.
It may be a cruiser of some type, but it's NOT a Frontier Cruiser.
And by the way, the Azhanti High Lightning Frontier Cruiser deckplans have ALWAYS been playable.
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
There are many Scouts, but the arrangement of the Sulieman class is relatively fixed. Lots of people try to fix the Beowulf, but that name only applies to one class of Type A. TNE did not claim that the quite different (and correctly sized) A2 published in an adventure was a Marava.
It may be a Frontier Cruiser, but it is not the AHL.
The trip from Engineering to the Bridge now also involves walking the whole distance, and traffic patterns are cut down the middle by the spinal gun. One of the ships in Mongoose's first run at Fighting Ships was a good example of how bad an idea that is.
In the grand scheme of things its not the end of the world. My personal approach is to ignore the new deck plans in favor of the classic ones because that's my preference and CT is my default rule set anyway. Having said that, there's a lot of focus on these boards on what is or isn't canon and how Traveller, in all its incarnations, is presented because of a vested interest in seeing the game continue to succeed. And some people take that "mission" very seriously.
FWIW, I find the original AHL layout to be quite playable. I take it as a given that a 60kton ship might be a little difficult to present easily but applaud GDW for taking a swing at it.
I accept the new deck arraignment, however, if I were to run a game involving some special need or just wanted to use the old design, I would have no issue switching to it because I have the sheets. I could also use the new decks and not blink too.
I have a very good feeling very few actually have the original box set let alone a desire to draw those 84 decks for a game. Same goes that most current Traveller gamers probably didn't know what's so special if they noticed the plans in Fighting Ships compared to other cruisers in the book. If people are that passionate about the original, find the boxed set.
On the offhand, are there any other Traveller ships besides the Merc cruiser that are tailsitters? With the concept of grav plates and inertial compensators the tailsitter configuration to create artificial gravity kind of died with those 1950s V-2 spaceships.
I have a very good feeling very few actually have the original box set let alone a desire to draw those 84 decks for a game. Same goes that most current Traveller gamers probably didn't know what's so special if they noticed the plans in Fighting Ships compared to other cruisers in the book. If people are that passionate about the original, find the boxed set.
On the offhand, are there any other Traveller ships besides the Merc cruiser that are tailsitters? With the concept of grav plates and inertial compensators the tailsitter configuration to create artificial gravity kind of died with those 1950s V-2 spaceships.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Mongoose have previously used the correct AHL deckplans.
The new plans are totally unusable.
Yes it IS A FRIKKIN' GAME, but a game with a lot of history and iconic subject matter. The new AHL deckplans smack of being a lazy attempt by someone not familiar at all with extant canon just producing any old tosh to fill a page.
Many ships in the new HG are spread over two pages so the AHL plans could have been done properly.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Fair enough, but I do not see why MgT should try to justify a retcon to the plans with a pathetic watercooler explanation - especially since the original draft plans are up on drivethru - the more plausible explanation is ufortunately the authors are just not aware of CT canon and fail to fact check.
The correct plans are available on the CT cd, the MT cd and MgT Fighting Ships supplement or whatever they called it.
x-boat tender springs to mind immediately, there may be others.
Nightwind1
SOC-12
Don't forget, Mongoose has a habit of doing this kind of thing- making mistakes, then doubling down instead of fixing them.
For example, in the volume "Merchant Prince", where they said that the term "Merchant Marine" meant a marine stationed on a merchant ship (and included a character class/profession for such). They were corrected by a large number of people, but they doubled down and told all of us that we were the ones that were wrong.
For example, in the volume "Merchant Prince", where they said that the term "Merchant Marine" meant a marine stationed on a merchant ship (and included a character class/profession for such). They were corrected by a large number of people, but they doubled down and told all of us that we were the ones that were wrong.
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