All in the family
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BetterThanLife
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A T20/HG2 "starship" bridge is 2% or 20 dTons, whichever is greater. </font>[/QUOTE]I think they are confused between the Starship Bridge, 2% and the small craft bridge 20%.
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
Oh yes, I see now, you're undoubtedly right.
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
Well, TNE used FF&S, which is 100% different from T20.
As for the certainty that Hunter wouldn't go for it in T20 . . . In an expansion of the rules, that builds upon what has gone before with additional options, why not? Are we locked forever into the past? The two options I provided are in the same vein as many other starship components in the HG2/T20 system.
I'd prefer an entirely FF&S type system, myself, but Hunter already didn't go for that.
Ok, I just need to correct a misstatement of the rules. I reread them this weekend. There is a 20 ton minimum for the bridge with a "real" bridge size chart for the hull sizes. I extrapolated the 20% from working on a 100ton test ship. Oops! Per the rules, one airlock is included in each hull design "free of charge" and takes no space. Any additional airlocks take 3 tons of space. As far as galley's and corridors etc... that theoretically is taken into account by a portion of the staterooms not allocated to the staterooms themselves. But, depending on how good you are laying out deck plans, you could have lots of corridor spaces which will quickly eat into your entertainment/relaxation spaces. While I think that some additional area should be allocated to circulation spaces (corridors, vertical shafts, etc...) I don't think that should be "bridge". Maybe it would make more since if the rules said "5% min of ship should be retained for circulation spaces" and keep the bridge size by the chart in the rule book.
The 300ton freighter/adventure ship, that I'm almost finished converting
, has a "real" 6 ton bridge, but on paper it is 20 tons of bridge! I just lost 14 tons of space in the conversion, and I'm not sure where it goes on the deck plans. I will issue two variants of the ship, "by the book" and the variant will "cheat" by recovering that extra 14 tons for cargo or what ever.
The 300ton freighter/adventure ship, that I'm almost finished converting
, has a "real" 6 ton bridge, but on paper it is 20 tons of bridge! I just lost 14 tons of space in the conversion, and I'm not sure where it goes on the deck plans. I will issue two variants of the ship, "by the book" and the variant will "cheat" by recovering that extra 14 tons for cargo or what ever.BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
The Bridge is more than just control stations. It is the control runs, it does include your 1 airlock, it originally included sensors and avionics and comms though now those capabilities are parts of your computers you still will need antenna arrays, wiring runs etc. Also landing gear has to be included someplace in non-airframe streamlined craft though the 5% you lose there can be better explained in control runs and control surfaces/thrust ducting or whatever.Originally posted by Jak Nazrith:
Ok, I just need to correct a misstatement of the rules. I reread them this weekend. There is a 20 ton minimum for the bridge with a "real" bridge size chart for the hull sizes. I extrapolated the 20% from working on a 100ton test ship. Oops! Per the rules, one airlock is included in each hull design "free of charge" and takes no space. Any additional airlocks take 3 tons of space. As far as galley's and corridors etc... that theoretically is taken into account by a portion of the staterooms not allocated to the staterooms themselves. But, depending on how good you are laying out deck plans, you could have lots of corridor spaces which will quickly eat into your entertainment/relaxation spaces. While I think that some additional area should be allocated to circulation spaces (corridors, vertical shafts, etc...) I don't think that should be "bridge". Maybe it would make more since if the rules said "5% min of ship should be retained for circulation spaces" and keep the bridge size by the chart in the rule book.
The 300ton freighter/adventure ship, that I'm almost finished converting
Hunter's approach was, for T20, EXTREMELY conservative-CT.
The 1st draft starship design rules were Bk5 exactly, except for computers. It was a bit of a struggle to get mention of the various odd bits that strongly shape other TU's.
And yes, FF&S/TNE & FF&S2/T4 are very different mechanically.
We (Dr Skull, J, Gypsy Comet, and I, maybe some of the other lead playtesters) all argued for inclusion of our favorite bits from other editions. We got a much simpler computer system than Hunter had proposed. We got Airframe defined as different from Streamlined, tho somewhere after draft 20, it lost the lifting surfaces definition. Through the playtest, most of that 5% airframe was explained as lifting and control surfaces; we'd all accepted the MT-ish 360x180 degree thrust capability of T-Plate MDrives to some degree.
I agree that the Bk2/Bk5 definitions for bridge size get ludicrous. I'd rather have seen a tons per bridge-crew-member ala FF&S, as it is a far more sensible approach.
The 1st draft starship design rules were Bk5 exactly, except for computers. It was a bit of a struggle to get mention of the various odd bits that strongly shape other TU's.
And yes, FF&S/TNE & FF&S2/T4 are very different mechanically.
We (Dr Skull, J, Gypsy Comet, and I, maybe some of the other lead playtesters) all argued for inclusion of our favorite bits from other editions. We got a much simpler computer system than Hunter had proposed. We got Airframe defined as different from Streamlined, tho somewhere after draft 20, it lost the lifting surfaces definition. Through the playtest, most of that 5% airframe was explained as lifting and control surfaces; we'd all accepted the MT-ish 360x180 degree thrust capability of T-Plate MDrives to some degree.
I agree that the Bk2/Bk5 definitions for bridge size get ludicrous. I'd rather have seen a tons per bridge-crew-member ala FF&S, as it is a far more sensible approach.
Perhaps I missed it, but it would be nice if a rule book included a description of "what's included" in something as critical as a bridge. I didn't see how many crew stations were included in a bridge. Is it one person per ton?
Also for the engineering compartment, is a control station or two included in the required tonnage for jump, maneuver, and power plant systems? My ship requires 2 engineers. It has Jump 4, Maneuver 4, and a power plant that produces 36ep, (enough to power the systems with a +4 to agility). I made sure there was enough room for a console with two chairs in the main engineering compartment.
Also for the engineering compartment, is a control station or two included in the required tonnage for jump, maneuver, and power plant systems? My ship requires 2 engineers. It has Jump 4, Maneuver 4, and a power plant that produces 36ep, (enough to power the systems with a +4 to agility). I made sure there was enough room for a console with two chairs in the main engineering compartment.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
The tonnage for Powerplants, Maneuver Drives, and Jump Drives does include monitoring and control stations. Taking a Fusion Powerplant as an example. A Powerplant would include the bottle, the fuel feed, the coolant, shielding, turbines, or however the power is transferred, wires, monitoring stations and controls.
Do you really want to try to calculate all that stuff?
Do you really want to try to calculate all that stuff?
speaking of beds why can't the single grown into a double or king size.
Imagine the bed is similar to roll of brown paper towels you see in the mens bathrooms.
All you do is pull it out to width (single, double, etc) put down the outside legs, hit a button and you have your own Jasper Auto adjustable bed.
Imagine the bed is similar to roll of brown paper towels you see in the mens bathrooms.
All you do is pull it out to width (single, double, etc) put down the outside legs, hit a button and you have your own Jasper Auto adjustable bed.
Originally posted by Bhoins:
[QB] The tonnage for Powerplants, Maneuver Drives, and Jump Drives does include monitoring and control stations. Taking a Fusion Powerplant as an example. A Powerplant would include the bottle, the fuel feed, the coolant, shielding, turbines, or however the power is transferred, wires, monitoring stations and controls.
Do you really want to try to calculate all that stuff?
Nope. Just that some design systems say something like..."You will need 1 work station for every (x) tons of ship drives and power plants. These act as monitoring/work stations for the engineers. Each work station is .5 tons...) That's a rough example. Just curious. Didn't want to miss anything that could fall through the cracks in a T20 write-up.
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
Well, my House Rule for HG2/T20 is that 10% of the Bridge Allocation is actually the default "Ship's Locker". In large ships this may be distributed in several locations. I have an Imperial regulation that states that cargo cannot be carried in it (safety issues). Customs inspectors can, if they chose, levy fines for finding anything they deem as cargo in the Ship's Locker, with fees of Cr250, Cr500, Cr1000, and finally Cr5000 per subsequent offense. Most starship captains don't bother to use it for anything other than stowage of gear (survival/tool/suit etc.).
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
The exact capabilities provided by advanced technology generally aren't covered as far as accomodations are concerned. I wish they were. If we have a miraculous jump drive, magical thrusters, and beam cannons, why can't the standard stateroom at TL-12+ be auto-reconfigureable from Single to Double Occupancy by changing the accomodations preferences settings in the ship's computer?
Well, I finished the deck plans! And the 20 tons of bridge, or should I say 14 additional tons, got used. For some reason I can't attach the pdf files. I use my office server so attaching a ulr to our server might raise red flags from our T.I. troll and that could end my surfing real quick!
I emailed the webmaster for this site but maybe I can email the pdf deck plans to one of you guys for attaching it? Unless there is an easy way of posting files that I'm unaware of. I've never posted a doc. of any kind before.
I'll try to put up a better write up later, but here are the basic stats.
300 ton needle/wedge
Jump -4
Manuver - 4
Power plant 12 tons -(enough to power systems with +4 agility.
12 tons of fuel for power plant
90 tons of fuel for jump drive (Note: ship has onboard tanks for a J-3 but will need to add drop tanks to make a J-4. This allows more cargo/passengers with extra range)
Model 4 computer, long range comm, long range sensors - with fiber optics backup)
16 staterooms
12 low births
1 emergency low birth
1 brig for two or three prisoners "bounty hunter victims"
2 Turrets located on the dorsal spine with 2 pulse lasers and sand caster each. One turret over main engineering, one over commons.
1 pop-up (or pop-down "chin-turret") with 1 fusion gun and 1 mining laser (good for cutting into the hulls of ships) Note: If mining laser is used during combat, the +4 agility drops to +3. To access chin-turret crew ramp needs to be in up position and the space is accessed by an access panel that can be designed to look like "typical hull plating". There are about two tons of space left over to stash contraband. >
Total Cargo; 30 tons
Deck 1
Cargo area 1 has 15 tons of cargo space and is where vehicles can be stowed. A large loading ramp extends from aft.
Cargo area 2 connects to cargo area 1 via sliding doors. This has 15 tons as well.
Crew loads via gang ramp that swings down just behind the chin turret. 4 staterooms, the brig, the low births, an airlock to cargo area 2, and the crew commons are all here.
Deck 2
12 staterooms, galley, passenger commons, bridge, most electronic suits, and main engineering, and a passenger airlock/docking tube are on this deck.
That's about it.
I will also create and enlarged pdf file of a typical stateroom and a larger family suite. Hey, isn't that how this thread started?
Jaknaz
I emailed the webmaster for this site but maybe I can email the pdf deck plans to one of you guys for attaching it? Unless there is an easy way of posting files that I'm unaware of. I've never posted a doc. of any kind before.
I'll try to put up a better write up later, but here are the basic stats.
300 ton needle/wedge
Jump -4
Manuver - 4
Power plant 12 tons -(enough to power systems with +4 agility.
12 tons of fuel for power plant
90 tons of fuel for jump drive (Note: ship has onboard tanks for a J-3 but will need to add drop tanks to make a J-4. This allows more cargo/passengers with extra range)
Model 4 computer, long range comm, long range sensors - with fiber optics backup)
16 staterooms
12 low births
1 emergency low birth
1 brig for two or three prisoners "bounty hunter victims"
2 Turrets located on the dorsal spine with 2 pulse lasers and sand caster each. One turret over main engineering, one over commons.
1 pop-up (or pop-down "chin-turret") with 1 fusion gun and 1 mining laser (good for cutting into the hulls of ships) Note: If mining laser is used during combat, the +4 agility drops to +3. To access chin-turret crew ramp needs to be in up position and the space is accessed by an access panel that can be designed to look like "typical hull plating". There are about two tons of space left over to stash contraband. >
Total Cargo; 30 tons
Deck 1
Cargo area 1 has 15 tons of cargo space and is where vehicles can be stowed. A large loading ramp extends from aft.
Cargo area 2 connects to cargo area 1 via sliding doors. This has 15 tons as well.
Crew loads via gang ramp that swings down just behind the chin turret. 4 staterooms, the brig, the low births, an airlock to cargo area 2, and the crew commons are all here.
Deck 2
12 staterooms, galley, passenger commons, bridge, most electronic suits, and main engineering, and a passenger airlock/docking tube are on this deck.
That's about it.
I will also create and enlarged pdf file of a typical stateroom and a larger family suite. Hey, isn't that how this thread started?
Jaknaz
That's a clever idea! It can also be used for dealing with non-humans that may have different comfort requirements.
As an aside, you don't have to give each stateroom full bathroom facilities. Just like some bed&breakfast and small european hotels, each floor or suite of rooms share communal waste and shower systems. The most a single room will have is a private vanity and mirror. This way you can save on space.
Mind you the above setup will normally be for ship crews; only middle passage accommodations would share bathrooms.
In CT and T20, the systems include the worksations.
In TNE, T4, and MT, the worstation volumes are NOT included. In TNE and T4, you explicitly add workstations for the engineering, gunnery, and other such crewmen. Maintenance access is apparently included.
In MT, it includes space for access and maintenance, but not the controls themselves, which are added in a later step.
T20 bridge contents are in left column, page 262.
In TNE, T4, and MT, the worstation volumes are NOT included. In TNE and T4, you explicitly add workstations for the engineering, gunnery, and other such crewmen. Maintenance access is apparently included.
In MT, it includes space for access and maintenance, but not the controls themselves, which are added in a later step.
T20 bridge contents are in left column, page 262.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Good spot there on the T20 rules. So in T20 a Capital ship only needs to allocate bridge once and gets Main Bridge, Flag Bridge and Aux Con all in one allocation? (Or in other words the AHL only has one Bridge even though the deck plans show 3?)
RainOfSteel
SOC-14 1K
Good spot there on the T20 rules. So in T20 a Capital ship only needs to allocate bridge once and gets Main Bridge, Flag Bridge and Aux Con all in one allocation? (Or in other words the AHL only has one Bridge even though the deck plans show 3?) </font>[/QUOTE]But if the AHL allocates only one Bridge dTon allotment, one hit destroys all three of those deckplan compartments, because they're all only one design-time component. THB p.166 Special Subtable: rolls of 96-98: Bridge Destroyed. There is no mention of Aux Con or Flag Bridge hit locations.
Which is why I'd like to see my alternate Capital Ship Bridge rules become an option for the official design sequence.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
Good spot there on the T20 rules. So in T20 a Capital ship only needs to allocate bridge once and gets Main Bridge, Flag Bridge and Aux Con all in one allocation? (Or in other words the AHL only has one Bridge even though the deck plans show 3?) </font>[/QUOTE]But if the AHL allocates only one Bridge dTon allotment, one hit destroys all three of those deckplan compartments, because they're all only one design-time component. THB p.166 Special Subtable: rolls of 96-98: Bridge Destroyed. There is no mention of Aux Con or Flag Bridge hit locations.
Which is why I'd like to see my alternate Capital Ship Bridge rules become an option for the official design sequence. </font>[/QUOTE]I know, and i like your rules. THough I think the ideal solution would be someplace in between.
Besides, in Capital ship combat you actually expect to roll on the damage charts in T20?
A better solution, IMO, for it is to always use a hit location roll, and proportional hits by tonnage. (as it was in about draft 15... )
For T20 purposes, it changes the order a little bit.
1: Determine damage amount
2: Determine system hit
3: Subtract the damage from that system's share of the SP.
4: if this would take the system below 0 SP, applie remainder to another system.
Repeat 3 and 4 until no damage is left in the volley.
I'd break out the following systems:
Bridges (one pool per installed bridge, no matter how allocated on plans) at 2% SP each.
Batteries: one track per battery. Each battery gets (Battery Total Tonnage/Ship Tonnage)*Ship SP. Modulus into lines by the rating of the battery (reaminder distributed from high line down); when damage enters line, USP reduced by the line #.
MD, JD, PP: (Drive Tonnage/ShipTonnage)*Ship SP. Divide into sublines by modulus by drive rating. Lower lines get extra points.
Fuel Tonnage: one line, with (Fuel Tonnage/ShipTonnage)*ShipSP. Tonnage/FuelSP = tons per SP.
Computer: one SP per model number. Proportionately reduce subfactors... if you want to.
Crew hits: Damage done to hull, but crew also take damage. Or, alternatively, 2 SP per person; arrange into watches...
Hull: subtract out all the above tracks from Ship's SP, remainder is "hull".
This provides a much different set of results, and is much closer to what was actually tested by my group.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Some games theory here...
Most vehicular combat systems fall into one of several categories:
Cumulative damage effect
Critical Damage Effect
Threshold damage effect.
Cumulative Damage until Failure
Some examples:
Star Fleet battles, Starfire, Sky Galleons, Harpoon, Carwars: Cumulative damage effect. Each hit does X damage, which reduces function cumulatively
HG, BattleRider: Critical Damage effect. Any hit reduces systems. Damage is not tracked to the hull, per se, but effects of damage to systems not based upon size of system, but number of times it's been hit.
Star Wars D6. D6 Space, Heavy Gear, Jovian Chronicles: Multiple Threshold Damage. Unless damage sufficiently strong, no effect. Multiple "Minor Damage"'s do not accumulate into one "Boom!", but do tend to make the "Boom" more likely in some systems. Only worst level taken has effect.
Star Frontiers: Cumulative Damagge until failure. As long as hull points remain, and critical not rolled, damage has no immediate effects.
Full Thrust: Cumulative Damage until Failure; with critical damage at failure point. No effect of damage until threshold reached, damage just accumulates. When threshold crossed, critical effects applied, and some systems (possibly all or none) may be knocked out. When all DP gone, ship destroyed, even if all systems still functioning.
Several systems blend these to various degrees.
T20 is a cumulative damage until failure PLUS cumulative criticals.
Later editions of D6 SW made it so that damage levels accumulated (A second minor hit made a major hit, etc, for cumulative effect, but still, hits which are insufficient to result in a damage level are completely ignored.)
my suggestion is derived from playtest draft material, simplified, which worked well with the damages.... it will lengthen combats DRASTICALLY. It shifts to a cumulative effect model.
For T20 purposes, it changes the order a little bit.
1: Determine damage amount
2: Determine system hit
3: Subtract the damage from that system's share of the SP.
4: if this would take the system below 0 SP, applie remainder to another system.
Repeat 3 and 4 until no damage is left in the volley.
I'd break out the following systems:
Bridges (one pool per installed bridge, no matter how allocated on plans) at 2% SP each.
Batteries: one track per battery. Each battery gets (Battery Total Tonnage/Ship Tonnage)*Ship SP. Modulus into lines by the rating of the battery (reaminder distributed from high line down); when damage enters line, USP reduced by the line #.
MD, JD, PP: (Drive Tonnage/ShipTonnage)*Ship SP. Divide into sublines by modulus by drive rating. Lower lines get extra points.
Fuel Tonnage: one line, with (Fuel Tonnage/ShipTonnage)*ShipSP. Tonnage/FuelSP = tons per SP.
Computer: one SP per model number. Proportionately reduce subfactors... if you want to.
Crew hits: Damage done to hull, but crew also take damage. Or, alternatively, 2 SP per person; arrange into watches...
Hull: subtract out all the above tracks from Ship's SP, remainder is "hull".
This provides a much different set of results, and is much closer to what was actually tested by my group.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Some games theory here...
Most vehicular combat systems fall into one of several categories:
Cumulative damage effect
Critical Damage Effect
Threshold damage effect.
Cumulative Damage until Failure
Some examples:
Star Fleet battles, Starfire, Sky Galleons, Harpoon, Carwars: Cumulative damage effect. Each hit does X damage, which reduces function cumulatively
HG, BattleRider: Critical Damage effect. Any hit reduces systems. Damage is not tracked to the hull, per se, but effects of damage to systems not based upon size of system, but number of times it's been hit.
Star Wars D6. D6 Space, Heavy Gear, Jovian Chronicles: Multiple Threshold Damage. Unless damage sufficiently strong, no effect. Multiple "Minor Damage"'s do not accumulate into one "Boom!", but do tend to make the "Boom" more likely in some systems. Only worst level taken has effect.
Star Frontiers: Cumulative Damagge until failure. As long as hull points remain, and critical not rolled, damage has no immediate effects.
Full Thrust: Cumulative Damage until Failure; with critical damage at failure point. No effect of damage until threshold reached, damage just accumulates. When threshold crossed, critical effects applied, and some systems (possibly all or none) may be knocked out. When all DP gone, ship destroyed, even if all systems still functioning.
Several systems blend these to various degrees.
T20 is a cumulative damage until failure PLUS cumulative criticals.
Later editions of D6 SW made it so that damage levels accumulated (A second minor hit made a major hit, etc, for cumulative effect, but still, hits which are insufficient to result in a damage level are completely ignored.)
my suggestion is derived from playtest draft material, simplified, which worked well with the damages.... it will lengthen combats DRASTICALLY. It shifts to a cumulative effect model.
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