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Rules Only: Alternate Methods of Life Support Recharge?

Because cracking it can create interesting (and sometimes unpredictable) chemistry in the cracking process. Stuff you don't want mixing. Sometimes stuff which is explosive as it comes out of the solution in the electrolysis. Others which are simply corrosive to the processing gear.

Couldn't you simply use the fusion to turn it to plasma, though? Then cool it? Sort of the extreme version of boiling your water to remove impurities.

Of course if they run a bit long they will just have to eat the vegetarian MRE's that nobody would touch as long as there was anything better left.

Dude! The vegetarian MREs are great! The cheese tortellini was fantastic. Tell you what, I'll trade you my tuna patty for your veggie MRE! ;)

(Now, of course, all that might have changed......)
 
Dude! The vegetarian MREs are great! The cheese tortellini was fantastic. Tell you what, I'll trade you my tuna patty for your veggie MRE!

I happen to agree with you about that particular menu item (I had one just this past November on veterns day so it's still good) When I was in we had all the cans we had to open using that M-60 can opener that came with every ration.
 
I happen to agree with you about that particular menu item (I had one just this past November on veterns day so it's still good) When I was in we had all the cans we had to open using that M-60 can opener that came with every ration.

When I was a kid, dad would get leftover C-Rats from the armory on drill days... his unit of 5 people would get issued a case of 24 meals for a weekend, and the Col would send them home with volunteers... I ttok them to school as boxed lunches. I loved C-Rats. Especially the Corned Beef.
 
For ships with long-term goals in uncharted space, there must be some way to recharge life support in the wild or at very low-tech worlds.

My players will be the crew of a trade pioneer/exploration ship and it will be expected to be outside the Confederation (the known civilized world) for up to a year at a time.

I figure that by having the T5 120 day life support multiplied by the max number of inhabitants (divided by ten) multiplied by four it should last an Imperial Year (IMTU this is 360 days).

By this, I am assuming that for supply planning purposes you are using a year.

The food supply is a highly concentrated goop that the "food processor" turns into something almost as good as real food.

For planning purposes, the Army assumes 6 pounds of food per day per man, however, that is a 3,600 calorie per day diet, which is probably excessive for the crew of a starship with is spending considerable time in jump and normal space. Possibly 5 pounds per man per day would be adequate. Based on that sufficient food for a adequately varied diet for 6 persons for one year, to include frozen items, would take up one Traveller displacement ton of space, so for every 6 persons in your crew, you would need one ton of storage space. I am not sure why you would need the complexity of a food processor that might develop problems. If your crew is a mixed one, with men and women, the food allowance is quite generous. Assuming adequate reprocessing facilities, a water supply of about 200 gallons per person should be more than adequate, and one Traveller displacement ton of water for every 18 crew should be sufficient.

Air is easy to replenish at a planet with breathable air or by getting it from water or ice.

I am assuming that by "air" you actually mean "oxygen", in which case the water supply acts as an immediate back up supply for emergencies.

Fuel for this ship is radioactives and they have a small processing plant if they can find ore.

The ship has the ability to separate out U-235 from natural uranium, or produce Pu-239? Isotope separation is not exactly easy, and the quantity of uranium needed for processing would be quite high. The Plutonium would have to be artificially produced in some form of breeder reactor, and then separated from the associated highly radioactive by-products. I would submit that it would be much easier to carry some additional fuel in specialized containers for avoid inadvertent critical mass issues.

They have a skilled doctor and lots of supplies. Yes, if they have to take on food at a primitive planet it will take more space to store than the concentrated goop and hopefully somebody will know how to cook.

With respect to medical supplies, I can furnish you with some reasonable estimates, as your planning factor is one year. As for acquiring food from other planets, that might be difficult depending on the planet bio-chemistry. Some of Earth's plants, specifically the hydrogen cyanide contained in manioc, have quite effective defense mechanisms. However, by carrying standard type food items, you are guaranteed storage space, cooking facilities, and cooks. Poor food is the fastest way I know to ruin morale.

As for shampoo, I'm assuming sonic showers like in the pulp SF I used to read. Hopefully they'll find toilet paper before they run out.

Those are basically sundry supplies, for which planning factors also exist, as long as you are using a year.

Note: I was trained as an Army supply officer, and have retained my interest in supply and logistics. I also have spent some time studying the development of army rations over the years from the Continental Army to the present day.
 
I would submit that it would be much easier to carry some additional fuel in specialized containers for avoid inadvertent critical mass issues.
"Captain, I cleaned up the stores like you asked. I even re-organized. I grouped everything together proper-like."
"You did what?!?" :eek:
As Captain is running aft to the cargo hold, "You wouldn't believe it, but someone had scattered the fuel canisters all over the storage space. They were as far apart from each other as they could get. It was crazy!"

Poor food is the fastest way I know to ruin morale.
It ranks pretty dang close behind death and dismemberment, though well ahead of rank boredom. The British Navy had to use pretty draconian discipline to instill a culture that would except hardtack and saltpork for months on end. *shudder*
 
The British Navy had to use pretty draconian discipline to instill a culture that would except hardtack and saltpork for months on end. *shudder*

Put a little lime in it and its not bad with Rum the Lash and Sodomy.
 
"Captain, I cleaned up the stores like you asked. I even re-organized. I grouped everything together proper-like."
"You did what?!?" :eek:
As Captain is running aft to the cargo hold, "You wouldn't believe it, but someone had scattered the fuel canisters all over the storage space. They were as far apart from each other as they could get. It was crazy!"


It ranks pretty dang close behind death and dismemberment, though well ahead of rank boredom. The British Navy had to use pretty draconian discipline to instill a culture that would except hardtack and saltpork for months on end. *shudder*

And lemons and limes, in various presentations and depending on the beliefs of the particular ship captain and the laws at the time, and sauerkraut.

I'm given to understand that if the boredom didn't get you, the taste of the water after a few weeks at sea probably would, which was why they took to adding a bit of rum to it. I guess the grog made up some for the discipline they had to endure.
 
I've been reading the Horatio Hornblower series - so refreshing what I already knew, and adding new knowledge about early 19th century naval stuff. It's good reading, though a little surprising in a few spots.
 
I've been reading the Horatio Hornblower series - so refreshing what I already knew, and adding new knowledge about early 19th century naval stuff. It's good reading, though a little surprising in a few spots.

C.S Forester was a very good naval historian as well as writer. There is also a biography of Hornblower around, and I would recommend getting the Hornblower Companion, which gives maps and the story background behind each book.
 
By this, I am assuming that for supply planning purposes you are using a year.

Yes. This is also the longest I expect the ship to be away from "civilized" planets. Not to mention it has to get back to the Confederation to pay their mortgage...

For planning purposes, the Army assumes 6 pounds of food per day per man, however, that is a 3,600 calorie per day diet, which is probably excessive for the crew of a starship with is spending considerable time in jump and normal space. Possibly 5 pounds per man per day would be adequate. Based on that sufficient food for a adequately varied diet for 6 persons for one year, to include frozen items, would take up one Traveller displacement ton of space, so for every 6 persons in your crew, you would need one ton of storage space. I am not sure why you would need the complexity of a food processor that might develop problems. If your crew is a mixed one, with men and women, the food allowance is quite generous. Assuming adequate reprocessing facilities, a

These people need a daily diet of approximately 7,000 calories. While they are human, they have a small symbiont which requires the extra food.

water supply of about 200 gallons per person should be more than adequate, and one Traveller displacement ton of water for every 18 crew should be sufficient.

That I've always worried about, because water is one of the main needs of human beings.

I am assuming that by "air" you actually mean "oxygen", in which case the water supply acts as an immediate back up supply for emergencies.

It can, but then you don't have the water, which is almost as important. It's easier to find a planet or an icy body somewhere unless the need is *extremely* critical.

The ship has the ability to separate out U-235 from natural uranium, or produce Pu-239? Isotope separation is not exactly easy, and the quantity of uranium needed for processing would be quite high. The Plutonium would have to be artificially produced in some form of breeder reactor, and then separated from the associated highly radioactive by-products. I would submit that it would be much easier to carry some additional fuel in specialized containers for avoid inadvertent critical mass issues.

The ship carries an extremely large amount of extra fuel in the proper containers.

I figure that by TL 12 (or even 10), with the control over the strong and perhaps weak forces implied by the various dampers, a small 4 ton device will be able to convert ore to fuel fairly rapidly, assuming that you can get enough ore. I believe the conversion rate is one ton of high-grade ore for one fuel rod.

These people don't want to run out of fuel in the middle of nowhere.

With respect to medical supplies, I can furnish you with some reasonable estimates, as your planning factor is one year. As for acquiring food from other planets, that might be difficult depending on the planet bio-chemistry. Some of Earth's plants, specifically the hydrogen cyanide contained in manioc, have quite effective defense mechanisms. However, by carrying standard type food items, you are guaranteed storage space, cooking facilities, and cooks. Poor food is the fastest way I know to ruin morale.

I'd be interested in the estimates of medical supplies.

As for the plants, most of the planets will have been previously settled by humans before the Shattering and the Long Night. There are also ways to test for known toxins in food and to remove them (or just use different foods or make more goop).

And yes, there is storage of real food, but (IMTU) goop is one of the best ways to store food compactly. The idea was from Freelance Traveller, but I forget what issue. The food processor turns goop into something that looks and tastes like real food. Assuming the quality of the good and processor is an integer between 0.85 and 1.0, the actual quality of the output food is the goop's quality multiplied by the food processor's quality.

At higher TLs there are probably much better ways.

Those are basically sundry supplies, for which planning factors also exist, as long as you are using a year.

Note: I was trained as an Army supply officer, and have retained my interest in supply and logistics. I also have spent some time studying the development of army rations over the years from the Continental Army to the present day.

I'd be curious about the development of food rations, but you might want to take it to another thread where it wasn't "Rules Only".

The only thing I know about food is how to cook it, given that the ingredients come from a store. And if it stays in my fridge too long, it turns interesting colors and should be tossed. I try not to have to toss things too much, though that is mainly Lee's job. :)
 
C.S Forester was a very good naval historian as well as writer. There is also a biography of Hornblower around, and I would recommend getting the Hornblower Companion, which gives maps and the story background behind each book.

I didn't know about the biography, but I have the companion. (Though, I haven't opened it, yet.) An acquaintance was giving away a couple of boxes of books (to a good home) and I picked up the entire series, with the companion.
 
Yes. This is also the longest I expect the ship to be away from "civilized" planets. Not to mention it has to get back to the Confederation to pay their mortgage...

A year's planning factors per man tends to smooth out out of the ordinary instances.

These people need a daily diet of approximately 7,000 calories. While they are human, they have a small symbiont which requires the extra food.

The 3,600 calories a day is close to what a lumberjack is burning up, and your crew is not engaging in any form of sustained physical activity, so the 3.000 calories a day is more than generous. Therefore, this symbiont is burning up as many calories per day as a human engaged in strenuous physical activity. It must have an incredibly high metabolic rate, and generate a lot of heat as well.

That I've always worried about, because water is one of the main needs of human beings.

The 200 gallons per man does assume high-efficiency recycling equipment. You are also going to recover a fair amount of metabolic water as well.

It can, but then you don't have the water, which is almost as important. It's easier to find a planet or an icy body somewhere unless the need is *extremely* critical.

For drinking, cooking, and limited sanitation requirements, a man needs about 5 gallons of water per day. Looking up the oxygen consumption of a human gives figures ranging from less than 2 to 6 pounds per day. A gallon of water contains 7.4 pounds of oxygen. Therefore, a gallon of water should supply sufficient oxygen for one person per day, if electrolyzed into oxygen and hydrogen. I would view the water supply as a more than adequate reserve, but you could always double the water supply as an oxygen backup as well. Water is a very efficient means of storing oxygen if you have the ability to electrolyze it.

The ship carries an extremely large amount of extra fuel in the proper containers.

I figure that by TL 12 (or even 10), with the control over the strong and perhaps weak forces implied by the various dampers, a small 4 ton device will be able to convert ore to fuel fairly rapidly, assuming that you can get enough ore. I believe the conversion rate is one ton of high-grade ore for one fuel rod.

These people don't want to run out of fuel in the middle of nowhere.

That is more accurately one ton of yellowcake, or uranium ore concentrate to one low-enriched uranium fuel rod. One ton of uranium metal gives you 0.7 kilograms/1.4 pounds of pure U-235. I am assuming that your reactor is using 93% U-235, similar to the current nuclear submarine reactors. You are going to have to process a lot of pure uranium metal meet your U-235 needs, which means processing a lot of lower-grade ore into yellowcake. And you have to find the ore deposit, and mine it. So your ship is also going to have to carry a far amount of mining equipment, and then have some means of concentrating the low-grade ore, or are you planning to run all of this through your 4 ton separator? Have you thoroughly thought the implications of finding and processing your fuel during the voyage? My recommendation is take the extra fuel with you. Refueling a reactor is also not the easiest thing to do.

I'd be interested in the estimates of medical supplies.

For medical supplies a planning factor of 0.3 pounds per man per day should be adequate, and this would include special rations for those requiring medical care. For what I called sundries, figure on 1 pound per man per day, and this would be generous. The stowage factor for both the sundries and medical supplies would be about 5 mass tons per 1 Traveller displacement ton.

As for the plants, most of the planets will have been previously settled by humans before the Shattering and the Long Night. There are also ways to test for known toxins in food and to remove them (or just use different foods or make more goop).

And yes, there is storage of real food, but (IMTU) goop is one of the best ways to store food compactly. The idea was from Freelance Traveller, but I forget what issue. The food processor turns goop into something that looks and tastes like real food. Assuming the quality of the good and processor is an integer between 0.85 and 1.0, the actual quality of the output food is the goop's quality multiplied by the food processor's quality.

At higher TLs there are probably much better ways.

I go with Murphy's Law. If a food processor unit can break down it will, and likely right after you enter jump space.

I'd be curious about the development of food rations, but you might want to take it to another thread where it wasn't "Rules Only".

For a quick overview of ration development, you might want to look at the following website of the US Army Quartermaster Foundation.

http://www.qmfound.com/history.html
 
It's worth noting that the Navy makes available about 2500 cal a day aboard ship, and 3600 for deployed seabees and seals... but also provides that active combattants and manual laborers can run to 5000 cal a day. And also note that aboard ship, those who need more can get it, and most don't need more than about 2200 a day, some even less.

The Army routinely makes available 3600 calories, with the expectation of most troops not eating that much outside of combat, and allowing that some will eat more.
 
It's worth noting that the Navy makes available about 2500 cal a day aboard ship, and 3600 for deployed seabees and seals... but also provides that active combattants and manual laborers can run to 5000 cal a day. And also note that aboard ship, those who need more can get it, and most don't need more than about 2200 a day, some even less.

The Army routinely makes available 3600 calories, with the expectation of most troops not eating that much outside of combat, and allowing that some will eat more.

And in Alaska, the troops, in theory if they eat everything, about 4000 to 4400 calories per day when deployed on a winter field exercise, although at the guys normally did not eat everything, there was a strong tendency to loose weight in severe cold. Partly that was water loss as well, given the very dry air when the air temperature is about 40 below, without counting wind chill.

Unloading a C-130 by hand on the Fort Greely air strip at 62 below zero straight cold without including wind chill from the prop blast, they did not turn the engines off, was quite interesting.
 
Dang - sounds like you would have preferred a LAPES run. Then you just have to pick everything up off the runway infield. *brrrrrrrrr*

(I spent a bit of time at Eielson in Jan/Feb once.)
 
Dang - sounds like you would have preferred a LAPES run. Then you just have to pick everything up off the runway infield. *brrrrrrrrr*

(I spent a bit of time at Eielson in Jan/Feb once.)

Given the snow cover, that would have been very interesting. Actually, lack of snow cover.

We had the Rangers fly straight in from Fort Stewart, Georgia, and we told them that there was 3" of snow on the ground. They thought that was a misprint for 3' and jumped accordingly. Out of 400 guys, they lost 75 guys to broken legs, arms, and sundry other injuries in the drop, and then they tried to run for 20 hours a day in 40 below weather. Inside of 72 hours, 200 were down with bronchitis and pneumonia. They were the aggressors for the exercise, and took themselves totally out of it. That year we had to borrow a company of Canadians and a reserve Marine company from Minnesota as replacement aggressors. Odd thing was that my supply platoon had to support them too. The Canadians used different stuff, so we were buying a bunch of kerosene on local purchase, and then had to airlift some material in for them too.
 
And in Alaska, the troops, in theory if they eat everything, about 4000 to 4400 calories per day when deployed on a winter field exercise, although at the guys normally did not eat everything, there was a strong tendency to loose weight in severe cold. Partly that was water loss as well, given the very dry air when the air temperature is about 40 below, without counting wind chill.

Unloading a C-130 by hand on the Fort Greely air strip at 62 below zero straight cold without including wind chill from the prop blast, they did not turn the engines off, was quite interesting.

Arctic Warfare Training Center (AWTC) has upped the available calorie count for combat exercises recently - last I heard, about 4 years ago, 6K to 7K per troop in the field, and moving to more fats and proteins in the diet on offer to deployed troops. I know some troops who lost weight eating 6 MRE's per day during AWTC - 7200 cal. They're also pushing hydration more. (I "lost" a player for 4 weeks to a refresher at AWTC... he noticed some serious changes between 1988 and 1999. Another friend went through in 2005, and with them comparing, the two noticed serious changes in diet on offer.)

And yes, Greely is unpleasantly cold... but -62°F ... that's extreme even for Greely. Ok, it's around the annual lowest overnight low. (Greely is on our nightly news' weather segment. I seldom have to put up with anything below -15°F.)
 
I am so happy that I am living in the rainshadow desert area of washington state!

Down here in Richland we really don't get much snow...jan to feb with maybe some in march...and it's gone in a few weeks.

All I have to worry about near Hanford is radioactive tumbleweeds...google it...it's kind of cool in a weird sort of way.
 
Arctic Warfare Training Center (AWTC) has upped the available calorie count for combat exercises recently - last I heard, about 4 years ago, 6K to 7K per troop in the field, and moving to more fats and proteins in the diet on offer to deployed troops. I know some troops who lost weight eating 6 MRE's per day during AWTC - 7200 cal. They're also pushing hydration more. (I "lost" a player for 4 weeks to a refresher at AWTC... he noticed some serious changes between 1988 and 1999. Another friend went through in 2005, and with them comparing, the two noticed serious changes in diet on offer.)

And yes, Greely is unpleasantly cold... but -62°F ... that's extreme even for Greely. Ok, it's around the annual lowest overnight low. (Greely is on our nightly news' weather segment. I seldom have to put up with anything below -15°F.)

I was there from October of 1975 to March of 1978, so that was before they started upping the diet. On the drive up from Fort Richardson, the tempts were running 40 below at night, and that was true for most of the exercise. Forty Below is a different order of cold from what most people are used to. Metal starts acting really funny.
 
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