Anti Vehicle Weapon Damage

[rgrove0172]

With the Hull ratings of most military vehicles being quite high (90 etc.) the various weapons that they would typically face (large support guns, TAC missiles, AP RAM Grenades etc.) dont seem to have a chance to hurt them. Even with an AP of 10 or so these weapons, like the TAC, do only d8 or thereabouts in damage. Averaging 28 or so damage points, even if armor isnt an issue is not going to bring the vehicle down for some time.

Am I missing something?

Im trying to work up some additional RPG type weapons, shoulder launched ATGMs etc and Im thinking they should have a chance to take out an APC in one shot but if so, they would be more powerful than some of the massive siege type weapons listed in the Catalog.

Help?

 

[Adam Dray]

I haven't really used the vehicle combat system. It sounds like the armor and damage values make combat vehicles nigh impenetrable.

I believe you add Effect to damage rolls, so that helps a little bit.

If you're concerned, add a die of damage to anti-vehicle weapons, maybe?

 

[Adam Dray]

I just reread the MgT2 vehicle combat rules. You're looking at the Central Supply Catalog, which I don't have ready access to right now.

I'd say that if you want to assault a vehicle with TAC missiles, here's how you do it.

1. Don't fight fair. Get into a good position to gain any kind of modifiers the referee will give you for tactics or anything else.

2. Aim for parts of the vehicle that have no armor, or weaker armor. By the rules (p134), the roof and floor use half values for armor.

3. Criticals mean everything. Any attack with Effect of 6+ engages a Critical Hits Location roll, and extra damage from the critical hit ignores Armor. Any kind of DM increases Effect (so see #1). Aim for +1 DM. Closer range also lowers difficulty of rolls, and thus increases Effect.

[I wrote this and then realized you probably don't need the 101, so I apologize in advance.]

A TL12 laser rifle does 5D+3 damage (average 20). That won't penetrate the 50-70 AP of an Armored Fighting Vehicle (AFV), even on a max roll (33 + Effect). Still, it will cut through a regular car (2 Armor) like butter.

Heavy weapons are required to take on armored vehicles. Still, rockets appear to deal 4D or 5D damage, which doesn't threaten an armored tank. The PGMP and FGMP deal 1DD and 2DD damage, respectively.

Vehicle-mounted heavy weapons include heavy SMG (4D, Auto 3), light autocannon (6D, Auto 3), cannon (1DD), laser cannon (1DD, AP 10), and fusion gun (3DD, AP 20). Note that the AP means "armor penetration" and that is the amount of vehicle armor that is ignored before determining what the armor soaks.

When damage is DD and not D, it's "destructive." You don't add Effect to that damage but you multiply the damage by 10.

So you shoot at an AFV (Hull 60; Armor 50, 60, or 70, depending on facing) with a laser cannon (1DD, AP 10). You hit with Effect 2. You roll 1D damage and multiply by 10. Say you get 30 damage and hit the rear (Armor 50). With AP 10, you are facing effective Armor 40, so 30 damage doesn't penetrate. Roll a 5 or 6, and you're dealing 50 or 60 damage against Armor 40, and 10-20 is getting through. 3-6 hits like that disables the vehicle. Or get a critical hit and start rolling on the chart. AFVs are really tough.

The G/Carrier has Armor 80-120. I have no idea how you damage this thing. Try to get underneath it in the back, where the Armor is 40, with a nuke?

Really, why are you shooting at TANKS with hand-held weapons?

A PGMP against it would deal 20-120 damage a shot, though. Pocket nukes deal 6DD (60-360).

Does Central Supply really list RPGs and TACs as non-destructive damage?

And what's this D8 business? Do you mean 8D (8-48 damage)?

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

If vehicles are going to be armored, then weapons are going to be DD. See nature of beast.

 

[kilemall]

Wasnt there the add on of better penetrators in Mgt1E CSC? Super-AP, that sort of thing.

 

[Brandon C]

Wasnt there the add on of better penetrators in Mgt1E CSC? Super-AP, that sort of thing.

Yes. Semi-AP, AP, Super-AP, Mega-AP and Ultimate-AP. This lets you ignore a certain amount of armor based on the number of dice damage the weapon did.

8D AP ignored 8 points of armor, 8D Super-AP ignored 16 points, etc. I think Super-AP was the best for any man portable weapon, although there might be a plasma weapon a step up.

 

[shankfisher]

The most disapppointing aspect of MGT is the vehicles combat. The stats are all over the place and make no sense. It's flashy, but ultimately just a mess. I can't find anything usable about it.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

The most disapppointing aspect of MGT is the vehicles combat. The stats are all over the place and make no sense. It's flashy, but ultimately just a mess. I can't find anything usable about it.

Which vehicle combat rules are you using instead?

 

[Brandon C]

Which vehicle combat rules are you using instead?

I wouldn't be surprised if he uses the ones from GT: Ground Forces

 

[shankfisher]

I wouldn't be surprised if he uses the ones from GT: Ground Forces

Well, somewhat. I like the ones from Paul Elliott. His Retro 2d6 rules and Zaibatsu include some good basic rules -- including for collisions. I added a HP system (based on mass) as way to track accumulated HP damage. For combat I added facing and hit location. At some point I may publish something through CE, maybe. But as it is, I can't see how someone could think a vehicle combat system where you can destroy a car with one hit from a sword ever got published.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I can't see how someone could think a vehicle combat system where you can destroy a car with one hit from a sword ever got published.

Which car and which sword was used?

 

[shankfisher]

Which car and which sword was used?

A broadsword does 4d damage. A ground car has 2 armor and hull 12; an air/raft has 2 Armor and Hull 16. What happens when you swing and do 19 points damage to either of these vehicles? In fact, the ATV has armor 6 and 60 Hull. It will take about 8 average swings with a broadsword to destroy an ATV. Many of the other vehicles in the vehicles book will be destroyed by a broadsword in one hit.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Destroyed can simply mean undriveable. You can change the broadsword to one that you're used to seeing in cinema, rather than the one listed in the Weapons chapter.

 

[shankfisher]

Destroyed can simply mean undriveable. You can change the broadsword to one that you're used to seeing in cinema, rather than the one listed in the Weapons chapter.

"A heavy two-handed sword" and "Once a vehicle has been reduced to zero Hull, it is wrecked and becomes totally inoperable, and is beyond any repair."

As I said, this is a mess. There seems to be no perception of how to scale damage to mass/size or any consistency between weapon damage, armor, etc. It's just a shame.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

"A heavy two-handed sword" and "Once a vehicle has been reduced to zero Hull, it is wrecked and becomes totally inoperable, and is beyond any repair."

You do know that there is a context for "repair" here.

As I said, this is a mess. There seems to be no perception of how to scale damage to mass/size or any consistency between weapon damage, armor, etc. It's just a shame.

Can you give another example with another weapon and vehicle?

 

[shankfisher]

You do know that there is a context for "repair" here.

"it is wrecked and becomes totally inoperable, and is beyond any repair" is pretty clear.

Can you give another example with another weapon and vehicle?

Any handgun will destroy, beyond repair, an air/raft in 2-3 shots. The P51 in the vehicle book should be armed with pistols -- it needs handguns to shoot itself down, not machineguns. There's tons of these issues and they've been discussed frequently on the Mongoose boards.

 

[Brandon C]

Are these problems MgT 1e or 2e, or both?

 

[infojunky]

As I said, this is a mess. There seems to be no perception of how to scale damage to mass/size or any consistency between weapon damage, armor, etc. It's just a shame.

Just be glad you weren't part of the playtest. We honestly tried to fix the problems. Or at least get to a point of it being internally consistent.

Let me put it this way, it took two tries for Mongoose to get a working vehicles system for 1st edition. Why should it be any different for 2nd edition?

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

"it is wrecked and becomes totally inoperable, and is beyond any repair" is pretty clear.



Any handgun will destroy, beyond repair, an air/raft in 2-3 shots. The P51 in the vehicle book should be armed with pistols -- it needs handguns to shoot itself down, not machineguns.

Ok. The MgT2 Vehicle book is another thing. It treats all vehicles as minions. Just as the MgT2 core book treats all animals as minions. That is the direction Mongoose has gone with their cinematics. If you're trying to use Mongoose Traveller as a simulator... don't do that. Stick to something like GURPS, if that is already working for you (unless destroying a car by punching on it is not very realistic either).

There's tons of these issues and they've been discussed frequently on the Mongoose boards.

Tons? Then maybe someone has made a house rule that takes care of the issue. Hopefully it's realistic as well.

 

[shankfisher]

Let me put it this way, it took two tries for Mongoose to get a working vehicles system for 1st edition. Why should it be any different for 2nd edition?

There's lots of good in MgT, but the vehicles are not one of those things.