Anti Vehicle Weapon Damage

[shankfisher]

]If you're trying to use Mongoose Traveller as a simulator... don't do that. Stick to something like GURPS, if that is already working for you (unless destroying a car by punching on it is not very realistic either).

I don't expect a simulation, I expect verisimilitude. That is, I expect the rules to meet at least vaguely my expectations I gather from the rules. An Air Superiority Fighter that's made of egg shells, or an air/raft that's destroyed by a low-tech barbarian with a sword just breaks the game. YMMV.

Tons? Then maybe someone has made a house rule that takes care of the issue. Hopefully it's realistic as well.

I don't pay the high price of Mongoose books to be told "go figure it out yourself." It's basically either an epic level of incompetence, or theft.

 

[infojunky]

There's lots of good in MgT, but the vehicles are not one of those things.

The issue is every time they touch a technical issue it changes. Vehicles is just the worst extreme of the situation.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I don't expect a simulation, I expect verisimilitude. That is, I expect the rules to meet at least vaguely my expectations I gather from the rules. An Air Superiority Fighter that's made of egg shells, or an air/raft that's destroyed by a low-tech barbarian with a sword just breaks the game. YMMV.

I figured you were thinking of another sword. Yes, that probably wouldn't look right in your verisimilitude.

 

[shankfisher]

Yes, that probably wouldn't look right in your verisimilitude.

It doesn't work for me or a lot of other people -- but then, I'm just reading the rules and expecting them to work. Judging by your comments here, that's expecting too much. Mongoose has tried at least three attempts to get it right and failed every single time. But hey, maybe I'll go play another game...

 

[Brandon C]

I don't expect a simulation, I expect verisimilitude. That is, I expect the rules to meet at least vaguely my expectations I gather from the rules. An Air Superiority Fighter that's made of egg shells, or an air/raft that's destroyed by a low-tech barbarian with a sword just breaks the game. YMMV.

My initial reaction is just to multiply hull and structure by ten. This doesn't quite fix the problem but it does reduce it, but I need to see what follow-on effects there are. Another fundamental problem going back to CT is that melee weapons do too much damage (to non-living objects).

I remember years ago when I realized how you destroyed a vehicle in GURPS: you didn't reduce hp to zero, you penetrated the armor with an incendiary or high explosive round, hoped that started an interior fire, and that fire caused the vehicle's fuel or ammo to explode. At that point, vehicle hp were pretty irrelevant.

 

[shankfisher]

The issue is every time they touch a technical issue it changes. Vehicles is just the worst extreme of the situation.

Well, if certain people in this thread prove to be the fan base, you can see why the quality is what it is. I wonder do they actually play the game? Do they listen to playtesters? Pity.

 

[shankfisher]

My initial reaction is just to multiply hull and structure by ten. This doesn't quite fix the problem but it does reduce it, but I need to see what follow-on effects there are. Another fundamental problem going back to CT is that melee weapons do too much damage (to non-living objects).

Since the weapons aren't dealing out a reasonable spread of damage you'll have problems with the weapon damages making sense with the higher HPs, I imagine. Nothing is properly scaled.

I remember years ago when I realized how you destroyed a vehicle in GURPS: you didn't reduce hp to zero, you penetrated the armor with an incendiary or high explosive round, hoped that started an interior fire, and that fire caused the vehicle's fuel or ammo to explode. At that point, vehicle hp were pretty irrelevant

And that makes a certain amount of sense, too. It's believable. Some of the 4e stuff, like machineguns killing battleships, is really wonky. The fixes are pretty solid though -- mostly returning to the more proven 3e rules. Honestly, Mongoose makes GURPS look like the gold standard for vehicles rules. But you probably already realized that!

 

[Brandon C]

Since the weapons aren't dealing out a reasonable spread of damage you'll have problems with the weapon damages making sense with the higher HPs, I imagine. Nothing is properly scaled.

Yeah, although this can be traced back to CT as well.

And that makes a certain amount of sense, too. It's believable. Some of the 4e stuff, like machineguns killing battleships, is really wonky. The fixes are pretty solid though -- mostly returning to the more proven 3e rules. Honestly, Mongoose makes GURPS look like the gold standard for vehicles rules. But you probably already realized that!

As I look though fixes for MgT, it starts looking a lot like GT, which makes me wonder why I'm not just using GT. So, I'm trying to find minimal changes.

 

[infojunky]

Well, if certain people in this thread prove to be the fan base, you can see why the quality is what it is. I wonder do they actually play the game? Do they listen to playtesters? Pity.

Actually you hit on the one of the issues, how the game Plays. But I digress.

I loved what MgT does with character creation it was one of the most brilliant bits done for Traveller in a long time, couple that with the fact that most of MgT1st is largely transparent to CT and visa-versa made for a great foundation.

The buildy bits on the other hand are a bit problematic. The biggest issue with ships was the absolute silence on how to treat a bunch of aspects of both Ship combat and design. Now in that case we had CT to fill in solutions in places that where problematic.

Now on to vehicles, it took them two tries to get a workable system for MgT1sted. But for the most part that system worked and was consistent with itself.

On a slightly broader view at Mongoose publishing history with one technical issues, every tech book they released has had a different base than the ones previous. Which leads to the mass of confusion of what anything specifically does. So it becomes a choice of what the specifications of your game are over what is actually published.

 

[kilemall]

Hmm, just doing a mental exercise with CT Striker, the rules don't say you can attack an air/raft with a broadsword, so you'd be in place to say its not possible at all. If you adjust the melee penetration by -4, the anti-personnel tables align and you could conceivably say that applies to vehicle damage.

At that point, broadswords do damage like a rifle and can be damaging external sensors, tires etc. At armor factor 7 they can't do damage at all. So it's still a bit squirelly, but it was handled before.

Old school CT didn't really deal with this sort of question at all, as the vehicles didn't have an armor factor OR subsystem damage.

As to broadswords vs. rifles, probably not far off re: nasty damage- different kinds of wounds, but bad enough.

If I were retrofitting for MgT, probably have tiered types of armor-

• melee
• gun
• vehicle
• starship

Going up each level, take 3D off. So a rifle firing on a vehicle takes 3D off, and a melee weapon attacking a vehicle takes 6D off.

 

[Brandon C]

Took a look at some other vehicle (as opposed to starship) damage system I have.

Twilight 2000 v2: no hull or structure points. The severity of damage was determined by weapon penetration minus armor. Damage knocked out various components. A catastrophic hit was possible if the location hit was fuel or ammo.

Traveller 2300: no hull or structure points. Severity of damage was determined by weapon damage minus armor. Damage knocked out various components. A catastrophic hit (caused by unspecified reasons) was possible.

Space 1889: hull points based on mass. Various components could be damaged. A cloudship or aerial gunboat could be destroyed by a boiler or ammo magazine explosion, in addition to hull points being reduced to zero.

GURPS Vehicles. This was a bit complicated. In the simple system, components were ignored and damage after armor was applied to hit points. In the advanced system, individual components had their own hp totals and destruction of components could degrade performance. A penetrating hit that started a fire could detonate fuel or ammo, regardless of hp remaining, destroying the vehicle. Body hp was important for determining collision damage.

So ... I think hull and structure points can safely be ignored in combat.

Weapon damage is still an issue, but really has been since 1977.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Weapon damage is still an issue, but really has been since 1977.

Car Wars had issues. So did Traveller 5.

I like the:

melee
gun
vehicle
starship

tiered idea from kilemall.

Often times, players will read the rules, assuming they will make every task check roll. That they will roll the highest damage for their weapon every time. That there will be clear skies in the days ahead, and that their characters will be performing while uninjured and fully rested at sea level at 1 atmo and 1G.

Still, Mongoose Traveller manages to keep its unintended consequences down to a minimum. For the rare encounter of a drifter actually using the broadsword, pictured in the MgT2 book, to cut a Ford Pinto in half... Could the car be repaired, even with a 24-hour Ford Pinto body shop right across the street? Hard to say with all the fighting going on at the moment during the city's unrest. Travellers armed with only car keys and snack food would not be able to just simply roll for repair to see if they fix the car on their own in the next 60 minutes, no matter how genius and strong and dexterous, etc, they all were. Or would they? Another unintended consequence maybe. "But the rules as stated say..."

Context be damned.

 

[Brandon C]

Car Wars had issues. So did Traveller 5.

Car Wars isn't a rpg As for T5, I've held a copy for about 3 minutes.

I like the:

melee
gun
vehicle
starship

tiered idea from kilemall.

This conflates two different things. Melee vs gun is a matter of effectiveness. Personal (melee + gun), vehicle and starship are a matter of scale.

Putting all weapons and armor on the same scale is the simplest solution.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

This conflates two different things. Melee vs gun is a matter of effectiveness. Personal (melee + gun), vehicle and starship are a matter of scale.

Putting all weapons and armor on the same scale is the simplest solution.

That's exactly what Matthew chose on during the playtest when this came up. Some players thought it strange that bullets couldn't shoot through car doors, or damage cars. Some players wanted hull and structure for vehicles. Some wanted just hull, or just armor. Different damage scaling was tried out. Some versions slowed down combat with more die rolls. Should 60D6 or D6x60 be used? Etc.

Eventually, all playtesting had to end (books closed, pencils put away, sheets turned in). The game had to be released.

 

[aramis]

Car Wars isn't a rpg As for T5, I've held a copy for about 3 minutes.



This conflates two different things. Melee vs gun is a matter of effectiveness. Personal (melee + gun), vehicle and starship are a matter of scale.

Putting all weapons and armor on the same scale is the simplest solution.

Car Wars is very much an RPG, at least once one has Deluxe ed. It's every bit as much an RPG as Boot Hill or Gangbusters, and more so than Dawn Patrol... Playable characters with skills (on a roughly no-0-1-2-3-4-5-6 scale), 2 attribute (Hits, prestige), and experience rules. Many played it only as a boardgame, but there was enough to run it as an RPG.

And yes, having multiple scales is the easiest solution.

 

[shankfisher]

I think the proper use of combat vehicles in an rpg needs to include:

Cumulative HP, for collissions, small arms, etc
Hit locations, targetable bu anti-vehicle weapons
critical component hits, targeted or random, with component HP
The vehicle health/endurance stat, to determine when it dies, restarts, etc
weapons and vehicle HP in proper scale
Repair and maintenance system, including retrofits, upgrades, salvage, scrap

These are needed as much for narrative purposes as anything. NPC vehocles can just explode but hero vehicles shrug off attacks, lose power, lose parts, have crippled components, limp home, are rebuilt, and go back into combat!

 

[infojunky]

If I were retrofitting for MgT, probably have tiered types of armor-

• melee
• gun
• vehicle
• starship

Going up each level, take 3D off. So a rifle firing on a vehicle takes 3D off, and a melee weapon attacking a vehicle takes 6D off.

This isn't a bad idea. But there are a couple of half steps that muck up the process. In that common commercial and light vehicles are as easily damaged by smallarms as people are. And Smallcraft which are much more vulnerable to fire than a starship.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I think the proper use of combat vehicles in an rpg needs to include:

Cumulative HP, for collissions, small arms, etc
Hit locations, targetable bu anti-vehicle weapons
critical component hits, targeted or random, with component HP
The vehicle health/endurance stat, to determine when it dies, restarts, etc
weapons and vehicle HP in proper scale
Repair and maintenance system, including retrofits, upgrades, salvage, scrap

How do you do it without slowing down or halting a game though?

 

[Brandon C]

Car Wars is very much an RPG

In the original pocket box, there were three skills and no attributes (no physical or mental ones).. Truck Stop added two skills, Sunday Drivers added none. These aren't characters, they are modular car components. While Deluxe added more skills, most were not directly relevant to autodueling and there were still no attributes. At best marginal as a rpg.

And yes, having multiple scales is the easiest solution.

No, it badly complicates things. Are LMGs personal weapons or vehicular weapons, since they can be used against both? Automatic grenade launchers? What about He shells fired from tank guns -- if fired at soldiers it is personal scale but if fired at a light vehicle is is vehicle scale.

What about heavy grav tanks or grav air defense vehicles firing at small craft, like troop landers?

Additionally, is battledress personal scale or vehicle scale? It has to deal with both on the battlefield.

No, the constant converting between scales is needlessly complicated. One scale for everything. Don't fear large numbers.

 

[Brandon C]

That's exactly what Matthew chose on during the playtest when this came up. Some players thought it strange that bullets couldn't shoot through car doors

Car doors are harder to shoot through than people think, especially with handguns.

, or damage cars.

Unless you hit hit the engine, drivetrain or fuel tank, it's hard for a bullet to significantly damage a car.

. Some versions slowed down combat with more die rolls. Should 60D6 or D6x60 be used? Etc.

D6x60.