Are there wars between Nobles in the OTU?

[Blue Ghost]

The topic says it all. Aside from "Rebellion", I was curious what people thought of nobles of various levels mustering their fleets to fight over single systems, worlds, continents, moons, towns, what not.

Minor wars between nobles and their forces. Does it happen? How do they manifest?

 

[Quint]

I can't really see in in the OTU - save possibly when done via corporate proxies. So it looks more like Tradewar rather than "Noble Conflict" - and when the nobles are actively fighting I expect it's more like Dune-esque "War of Assassins" instead of a open conflict.

Might make for an interesting dueling scenario though - ship vs. ship rather than just two nobles on a field at dawn...

D.

 

[infojunky]

Minor wars between nobles and their forces. Does it happen?

YES!.... I would think it is probably one of the favorite Spectator sports in the Imperium.

How do they manifest?

Like all other wars pretty much. I would suggest looking at the Histories of the Italian City States as a starter.

I would also suggest the article on the Imperial Rules of War in Library Data.

 

[GypsyComet]

Member worlds can come into conflict, including armed conflict. It is why the Imperial Rules of War exist.

The Imperial nobility are less likely to reach that level of conflict, but they have certainly done so. The Civil War was a throne war between nobles and others with power and ambition, and the hot trade wars and infighting in Deneb (Mongoose book) before and during the Civil War was between Imperial nobles. Most sectors probably don't have a recent history of noble conflict as bad as Deneb, but family feuds are certainly going to occur all over. Don't expect anything blatant in Core, where the Emperor might hear of it before it is resolved, but Old Expanses or Daibei have almost certainly have a few family matters get nasty.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

Member worlds can come into conflict, including armed conflict. It is why the Imperial Rules of War exist.

The Imperial nobility are less likely to reach that level of conflict, but they have certainly done so. The Civil War was a throne war between nobles and others with power and ambition, and the hot trade wars and infighting in Deneb (Mongoose book) before and during the Civil War was between Imperial nobles. Most sectors probably don't have a recent history of noble conflict as bad as Deneb, but family feuds are certainly going to occur all over. Don't expect anything blatant in Core, where the Emperor might hear of it before it is resolved, but Old Expanses or Daibei have almost certainly have a few family matters get nasty.

As Jim said, it certainly happens and that why the Imperial Rules of War exist.

The more common conflicts are amongst the big power blocs of worlds called duchies and counties...
* There is a lot of canon writing about the rivalries and sometimes conflicts between the duchies.
* Only a few of the older sectors have established break-downs on their duchies including the Spinward Marches, of course.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[jcrocker]

One of the GURPS books had a 'war' between two nobles from the same planet fighting over a disputed bit of land - the way it was described, it was more accurately described as a platoon-level skirmish.

With the Imperial Rules of War, you could easily see small actions away from civilians, so lots of action for PC groups, but large blitzkreigs would probably be ruled out.

 

[mike wightman]

Yes, I do believe subsector dukes at the very least will compete with each other to try and develop the worlds in their duchies and this will occasionally involve sponsoring unrest in a neighbouring subsector. This could be anything from funding rebels or supplying mercenaries, to espionage and full on 'trade war'.

What's more I think sector dukes probably 'encourage' such conflict - after all they wouldn't want a rival duke having a more powerful duchy and hence a greater claim to being sector duke; first among equals have to be a bit more equal

 

[Blue Ghost]

I don't recall the Imperial Rules of War. Are they in the Library Data?

 

[tjoneslo]

I don't recall the Imperial Rules of War. Are they in the Library Data?

http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Imperial_Rules_of_War

 

[Blue Ghost]

LD N-Z, okay ... I vaguely remember them ... but yeah, it's coming back to me ... somewhat. I remember skimming over them ... but internecine Imperial conflict wasn't part of any of my gaming sessions, therefore we never used them.

Okay, thanks.

I guess the next question would be, how often and on what scale do such conflicts take place?

Very interesting.

 

[MThompson016]

Hmm. I'd say they would happen when the stakes are worth it, conventional means have failed or are not acceptable to one of the parties, how much actual control the noble has over the territory, and if they can get away with it.

It might also come about as a result of political machinations. Baron of X may have politically embarrassed Baroness Y at the recent Conclave to elect a new Subsector Duke, plus he's been economically interfering with her demesne on the sly (nothing to prove conclusively, but their houses have been fighting for generations), and it could be time to Teach Him a Lesson.

 

[GypsyComet]

how often and on what scale do such conflicts take place

Between nobles: Privateer scale stuff mostly. Full blown Trade War or worse is frowned upon, as such shenanigans can rile up larger areas and possibly interfere with the security of the Imperium. Deneb got a house cleaning by Arbellatra for such things.

Member worlds on their own can conduct open warfare internally (balkanized worlds or worlds undergoing revolutions, etc) or against each other on planetary surfaces as long the Rules of War are observed. There is probably much less warfare between worlds in the Golden Age (1100s) than would have been the case prior to the Civil War when worlds were still working out regional power structures. Regions of the Imperium that show a lot of captive governments (Gov 6) were probably hot spots back in the day.

 

[flykiller]

Minor wars between nobles and their forces. Does it happen?

overtly, NEVER! we're all one big happy trade confederation.

covertly, all the time. "that planet is part of my duchy!" "no, MY duchy!" "MINE!" bam biff boom boff ... all behind the scenes of course. if you need a justification for piracy, there it is. not to mention "planetary navies", trade wars, missing ships, factions, coups, "uprisings", "revolutions", mercenaries, you name it.

could even be a matter of imperial policy, keep the nobility fighting each other instead of coming after the emperor.

I would suggest looking at the Histories of the Italian City States as a starter.

more like greek city states. athens kept records of their losses in combat for many years, it averaged 3% per year for as long as records were kept.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I feel some adventure seeds coming on. Stay tuned :smirk:

 

[Condottiere]

You need to keep all those mercenary companies occupied, until you can throw them into the teeth of the Zhodani and Sword Worlders.

 

[kilemall]

You need to keep all those mercenary companies occupied, until you can throw them into the teeth of the Zhodani and Sword Worlders.

So merc companies are sort of a freelancer militia, by subtle design?

 

[Condottiere]

I don't know if that was the original intent, though probably heavily influenced by Pournelle's CoDominium.

But going by current trends, maintaining a military is expensive, and introducing a highly trained and well equipped mercenary force into the equation, assuming they are exploited immediately before the other side knows they are there, probably does allow you to take the initiative and achieve whatever objectives you wanted before the other side has time to react, allowing you to negotiate from a position of strength.

Possession is nine tenths of the law, and if both sides are equally influential in the Imperium, holding the objective in any Imperium imposed settlement it's likely that it will remain with you.

 

[Garnfellow]

As GypsyComet suggested, check out the Mongoose Deneb book. Very interesting spin on an Imperial sector, with lots of Dune-like noble rivalries.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

When did all the nobles go self-centered?

Seriously, when did this all transition from the early rise of the Imperium under Cleon I? In the T4 books, during the rise of the 3rd Imperium, Cleon I used three methods to bring worlds in. Of these, B and C are relevant to discussion. The words constantly used were Loyalty, Honor and Service. This formed the basis the Milieu 0 book, so it is not an offhand reference:

A.Outright conquest (example: Julian Pacification Campaign). Did not work so well
B.Using the Scout Service to un-balkanize worlds(when possible), create ties via economic need, making the new world president/dictator/king a noble in the Imperium for loyalty.
C.Choosing CEOs/major players in the Sylean Fedederation, those willing to give up personal power for loyalty, honor and service.

OTOH, this discussion does bear out that the 3I was rotting and ready to fall when the Rebellion came :CoW: :devil:

 

[mike wightman]

I guess the next question would be, how often and on what scale do such conflicts take place?

Very interesting.

They have been going on for so long that there are rules that govern what you can get away with in a trade war...