Are there wars between Nobles in the OTU?

[Murph]

Even if you had Nobles that wanted to War on each other, it would not work, since you would have anarchy across the Imperium. Not going to happen. Granted the Daimyo did it in pre-shogunate Japan, but once the Tokugawa's came in, all the local war stuff stopped, or the noble died. That is why you have the 47 Ronin. If you allow Nobles to war on each other, you have chaos, and an empire that falls apart at the first blow worse than anything GDW did with the Rebellion.

Local nobility is an entirely different critter. They will have their world or themselves as their primary concern and reason for being obstreperous. IN THEORY they are entirely separate from Imperial Nobles, who are supposed to be more concerned with the big picture. IN PRACTICE the Imperial Nobility can't help but be made up of local folks fairly often, so partisanship happens, grudges over past deals are unavoidable, and both Local and Imperial nobility are going to mix it up.

The Locals, being essentially planetary rulers, are covered under the Imperial Rules of War. The Imperium is not stupid, and knows that its thousands of member worlds are NOT going to get along all the time. The Imperium would rather everyone got along, traded back and forth, and made all parties lots of money. Reality is that people are frequently stupid, stubborn, vain, and proud, and have long but selective memories. Including the local rulers. ESPECIALLY the local rulers.

Imperial nobles are supposed to be above all that, but, shockingly, are just as Human (or whatever) as everyone else. The difference that sticks is that they are NOT covered by the Imperial Rules of War, but are instead bound by their oaths of Fealty to the Emperor. Their conflicts are *supposed* to stay in the boardroom, the Ducal or Imperial Court, or the negotiating table. Open conflict, either their own or being dragged into a local squabble, does not look good and will hamper their careers, and possibly shorten their lives, if discovered. So they try to stay covert. Industrial sabotage to force a contract you lost to go back out to bid; "lost" shipments (and ships) to make a rival look less reliable; social traps to make a rival's heir look like a liability to throw a succession into doubt; news suppression and enhancement; blackmail, extortion, and murder by proxy.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Even if you had Nobles that wanted to War on each other, it would not work, since you would have anarchy across the Imperium. Not going to happen. Granted the Daimyo did it in pre-shogunate Japan, but once the Tokugawa's came in, all the local war stuff stopped, or the noble died. That is why you have the 47 Ronin. If you allow Nobles to war on each other, you have chaos, and an empire that falls apart at the first blow worse than anything GDW did with the Rebellion.

Murph, I think if you look beyond medieval Japan (which is a good example) you find all kinds of petty wars across Europe and Asia, even in Meso America and the classic era in the Mediterranean.

It sounds like what you're frowning on are large civil wars between two factions vying for supremacy. That's a different animal in my opinion, but shares a common root with "lesser wars", so to speak.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

Non-Aligned worlds are essentially World-States as in each world functions as a distinct polity... Much as in the way the ancient Greek cities functioned as City-States, but sometimes came together in the form of supra-polities to accomplish group goals such as repelling invaders...

This comes from the Wiki (...which in turn comes from primary sources):
Government Structure:
Feudal Confederation: The Imperium can be best thought of as a form of feudal confederation. Member worlds of the Imperium agree to pay taxes and obey a few fundamental laws which the Imperium promulgates, known as the High Laws.

Third Imperium Duties:
In return, the Imperium agrees to patrol the space between the worlds, to protect interstellar trade, to encourage travel and commerce, and to arbitrate diplomatic relations between worlds. Beyond this, individual worlds are left to their own devices so long as they acknowledge the power of the Imperium to rule the stars.

So, larger polities are essentially supra-polities...

*** Has anyone done any research or work on polity (governments) existence and formation in Traveller? ***

I have been studying it for awhile as a side diversion hobby sort of thing. I'd be interested to see what others have learned and to share more of what I have learned.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[flykiller]

Even if you had Nobles that wanted to War on each other, it would not work, since you would have anarchy across the Imperium.

think of it as controlled anarchy.

if you look beyond medieval Japan (which is a good example) you find all kinds of petty wars across Europe and Asia, even in Meso America and the classic era in the Mediterranean.

not to mention the united states. the whiskey rebellion, bleeding kansas, range wars, water wars, mob wars, union wars, the siege of athens, and present day drug cartel wars.

 

[flykiller]

Member worlds of the Imperium agree to pay taxes and obey a few fundamental laws

a few? there would be full-scale treaties between member worlds and the imperium. and not just "the standard treaty" either, each would be tailored to the world in question at the time of entry.

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

The duke of Regina has control over the Imperial worlds in the Jewel subsector. I wonder how he feels about the appointment of a new duke to the Jewel subsector (see MgT canon for this one).

An appointment like this is commonly known as a 'March Duke' (see Imperiallines #7), and on the face of it, it could be seen more as an indication of the Imperium's awareness of an upcoming war with the Zhodani than anything else. This may not even be a permanent position -- or at least that could conceivably have been what some sector-level seneschal told Duke Norris to keep him from hitting the roof over it.

That said, anyone reading the TNS reports from 1105-1110 can easily note that the Aledon family (Duchy of Regina), the Muudashirs (Duchy of Mora) and the hault-Oberlindeses (Baron Feri) were caught up in some kind of internecine conflict, together or otherwise. The hault-Oberlindeses spent 1105 fending off vague threats of action against them from the Imperial Navy, having one of their own merchant vessels subsequently blown up by the Imperial Navy, and dealing with the eruption of a world war on their own Baronial back yard. Duke Norris's actions up to and during the FFW are old news to most of us, although it's perhaps a bit less known that his chief antagonist during this time, Admiral Lord Frederick Santanocheev, is the great nephew (and protégé) of Duchess Delphine of Mora.

 

[maksimsmelchak]

a few? there would be full-scale treaties between member worlds and the imperium. and not just "the standard treaty" either, each would be tailored to the world in question at the time of entry.

I think what is meant is that there would only be a few laws that would affect the common man / sophont / person.

And tax codes that fill rooms from floor to ceiling... Or vice-versa...

Of course, there are probably planetary libraries full of useless laws... LOL ;-)

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

 

[Selandia]

Local nobility is an entirely different critter..

If I rule a system was a generic statement. And as you point out yourself, sophonts are sophont and wathever might they hold they will use:

Reality is that people are frequently stupid, stubborn, vain, and proud, and have long but selective memories. Including the local rulers. ESPECIALLY the local rulers.

As long as you have muscle, specialy legaly sanctionned muscle, so as long as "might makes right " (to quote) there will be profitable use of muscle.

As to anarchy, I love order when it is an "order" that serves me, specially if I instituted it. Somebody else's creation short change me? I might cheat, or if I have enough clout create anarchy to upset current order and pick-up the part.

The Empire want stability? The Vilani sure, the TI? At what price? Lets say Baron Nono is incompetent, bordeline traitor. The Duke Dandolo send a squad of his "Guardia di Finanze" to arrest him. Nono, hardly more than a robber baron with henchmen in uniform (his father earned the title by outstanding services but the heir is a waste) knows that he has nothing to loose and is willing to shoot it out, claiming that the Duke is doing an illegal seizure for personnal enrichment. Will the TI tolerate Nono's alledged treachery and tel the Duke to shut up? Will the TI go over the head of the Duke and send Imperial resources to trample both if need be to stabilize things? Will they let the Duke (all those vote and political alliances in the Moot are used for something anyway) "do his job"?

I vote for having as many armed conflict as you can come up with.

BTW Only in late feodalism (absoluto-feodale)does monarch stop intra nobility wars in Europe.

have fun, blow them all

Selandia