Armor and technology levels (TL)

[madmike]

Some other books of inspiration would be;

King David's Spaceship - Jerry Pournelle

Some great stuff about weapons development and introduction of better projectile weapons which would be worth a look is the Destroyermen series by Taylor Anderson.

 

[Icosahedron]

Armour fell out of favour in the 1400s largely because it was ineffectual against the primitive firearms of the day. Whatever rule set you're using, the armour should provide protection against swords but not pistols.
A survivable crash will not destroy all the ship's equipment. With sufficient knowledge, (eg an engineer) the crew should be able to rig up charging devices, water purifiers, etc, and the ship's medic will be a whole order of magnitude more effective at treating wounds and diseases than anyone else on world - even with a limited kit. All of which could lead to rich or witch...
It will depend on how they play it and how they integrate with the locals, rather than what they have.

 

[McPerth]

Armour fell out of favour in the 1400s largely because it was ineffectual against the primitive firearms of the day. Whatever rule set you're using, the armour should provide protection against swords but not pistols.

IMHO that will depend on the exact tech developement of the planet, as things changed in this isse quite a lot between 1300 and 1492.

...and the ship's medic will be a whole order of magnitude more effective at treating wounds and diseases than anyone else on world - even with a limited kit.

Let me disagree with you in this statement. The ship's medic will probably not know about the medicinal herbs/plants/etc., nor about its endemic diseases and other health issues specific to this planet (and even this zone in the planet).

Also, without lab, radiology, etc. support, most doctors are quite blind today, and I envivion more so as tech develops and they become more tech dependent. And that will grow worse as most specialized is the medic, as they use to be more tech dependent and their knowledge outside their field becomes older...

Being a nurse with nearly 25 years of experience in an ER, and first aid instructor, my capabilities will be quite limited in this situation. I'd have no idea about the pathogens there, nor about the natural antibiotics (just to give you an example), and my drug supplies will be too limited (and precious, as irreplaceable) as to use it except on the most dire emergencies. And of course I could not call an ambulance for help...

I could, of course, resort to my first aid knowledge, but not knowing about the endemic health problems in he zone (or the whole planet), also here my knowledge would be heavily impaired.

It will depend on how they play it and how they integrate with the locals, rather than what they have.

And that is what makes a good rol playing situation

 

[Dragoner]

Armor fell out of general usage due to weight. However, there have always been armored troops of one degree or another....

 

[Timerover51]

Armour fell out of favour in the 1400s largely because it was ineffectual against the primitive firearms of the day. Whatever rule set you're using, the armour should provide protection against swords but not pistols.

I would suggest that you read Oman's Art of War in the Sixteenth Century before making such a blanket statement such as that. Armor, to include full plate armor was still in use past 1600.

 

[aramis]

I would suggest that you read Oman's Art of War in the Sixteenth Century before making such a blanket statement such as that. Armor, to include full plate armor was still in use past 1600.

Breast and back up through the 1750's.

 

[McPerth]

Breast and back up through the 1750's.

In Napoleonic army (up to 1815) the cuirassiers wore breast and back armor, and even in the Franco-Prussian war were cuirassiers used (though I'm not sure if they still used the breastplate).

 

[Greylond]

Actually France had Cuirassiers in the first year of WWI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuirassier#20th_Century

 

[Dragoner]

Soviets used a cuirasse in WW2 as well:

 

[Timerover51]

Medical Care

With respect to advanced medical knowledge and supplies on a low-Tech Level planet, I came across this in the book by Sir Samuel Baker about his travels in Abyssinia in 1861. It clearly gives some idea of what the reaction might be, and how to go about doing so without problems. These are two longer sections, but comments are scattered throughout the text.

Baker as a Physician-Abyssinia

My success as a physician had gained me many friends, as I studiously avoided the acceptance of any present in return for my services, which I wished them to receive as simple acts of kindness; thus I had placed the Sheik Hassan bel Kader under an obligation, by curing him of a fever; and as he chanced to combine in his own person the titles of both sheik and faky, I had acquired a great ascendency in the village, as my medicines had proved more efficacious than the talismans. "Physician, cure thyself," applied to the Faky, who found three grains of my tartar emetic more powerful than a whole chapter of the Koran.
We frequently had medical discussions, and the contents of my large medicine-chest were examined with wonder by a curious crowd; the simple effect of mixing a seidlitz powder was a source of astonishment; but a few drops of sulphuric acid upon a piece of strong cotton cloth which it destroyed immediately, was a miracle that invested the medicine-chest with a specific character for all diseases.

If not exactly a cure of their Mahometan souls, they acknowledged that I held the key to their bowels, which were entirely dependent upon my will, when the crowd of applicants daily thronged my medicine chest, and I dispensed jalap, calomel, opium, and tartar emetic. Upon one occasion a woman brought me a child of about fifteen months old, with a broken thigh; she had fallen asleep upon her camel, and had allowed the child to fall from her arms. I set the thigh, and secured it with gum bandages, as the mimosas afforded the requisite material. About twenty yards of old linen in bandages three inches broad, soaked in thick gum-water, will form the best of splints when it becomes dry and hard, which in that climate it will do in about an hour. There was one complaint that I was obliged to leave entirely in the hands of the Arabs, this was called "frendeet;" it was almost the certain effect of drinking the water that in the rainy season is accumulated in pools upon the surface of the rich table lands, especially between the Atbara and Katariff; the latter is a market-town about sixty miles from Wat el Negur, on the west bank of the river. Frendeet commences with a swelling of one of the limbs, generally accompanied with intense pain; this is caused by a worm of several feet in length, but no thicker than pack-thread. The Arab cure is to plaster the limb with cow-dung, which is their common application for almost all complaints. They then proceed to make what they term "doors," through which the worm will be able to escape; but, should it not be able to find one exit, they make a great number by the pleasant and simple operation of pricking the skin in many places with a red-hot lance. In about a week after these means of escape are provided, one of the wounds will inflame, and assume the character of a small boil, from which the head of the worm will issue. This is then seized, and fastened either to a small reed or piece of wood, which is daily and most gently wound round, until, in the course of about a week, the entire worm will be extracted, unless broken during the operation, in which case severe inflammation will ensue.

Note: The parasite worm described is the Guinea Worm, and Baker was correct that the source was the drinking water.

 

[McPerth]

With respect to advanced medical knowledge and supplies on a low-Tech Level planet, I came across this in the book by Sir Samuel Baker about his travels in Abyssinia in 1861. It clearly gives some idea of what the reaction might be, and how to go about doing so without problems. These are two longer sections, but comments are scattered throughout the text.

Baker as a Physician-Abyssinia

Note: The parasite worm described is the Guinea Worm, and Baker was correct that the source was the drinking water.

WHile those are interesting readings, IMHO don't reflect the point I tried to stress.

In 1861, medicine was light years from now, still closer to medieval one than today's. Most medical drugs were still natural ones, mostly made of herbs and aniamls, with no syntethized drugs, nor imagery (Rx, PET, ressonances, ecographies, etc.) to help diagnosis, so a physician could readily adapt to local remedies and make his diagnosis just by observation, heart beating count and temperature.

The big breackthroughts came after that with diagnosis (mostly analises, and imagery), sterilization, analgesics/antipyretics, antibiotics and anaestesics (and so surgery), and all of them came after that.

Today, few doctors would be able to make a minimally complex diagnosis wihtout blood sample (and probably urine) analysis, imagery, etc., and most of the cures will either be with synthetic drugs or complex surgery, impossible to do without hospital support. And I only envivion this to become "worse" (in the sense of being thechnology dependent, yet with better results) as technology advances, so less able to work without it.

Even today you could resort to some natural remedies, but is in Earth, where most are known, but in an alien planet, where the medic to be would have no idea about natural remedies (and which of them are true and which ones mere suprestition or placebo, without means to know it without lengthy studies), nor about local health problems (as the Ginea worm in your example), not about the racial/genetic illnesses of the population, nor their strenghts/weaknesses or different phisiologies (if there are different races/ethnic groups), I guess his medical skill will be (at best) severely impaired.

In fact, I guess Mr Baker, being less technology dependent, would do it better in this situation than most today's doctors, not to say any one used to TL 15 medicine.

 

[Timerover51]

You might be right about Baker being better able to cope with a low-Tech civilization than someone of Tech Level 15. Against that, not all planets are that level, and a medic used to a more frontier area, where a lot of the high-Tech level things are not available, might be able to manage to a degree.

 

[McPerth]

You might be right about Baker being better able to cope with a low-Tech civilization than someone of Tech Level 15. Against that, not all planets are that level, and a medic used to a more frontier area, where a lot of the high-Tech level things are not available, might be able to manage to a degree.

You're right not all will be used to TL15, but a ship's medic will be used (at least) to the TL of the ship, that we can assume it's the one of its sick bay. Aside from that, if the ship is a former Navy, Sscout o Marines (quite probable, as the CharGen benefits those careers), we can assume he learned the trade at TL 15.

 

[Cryton]

If I recall correctly, the only Traveller system to address this was MT. In which you got a negative DM for every TL category difference (in either direction) from your homeworld TL category. (categorys being High Stellar, Avg Stellar, Pre Stellar, industrial, ect, each covering 2-3 TLs)

Dunno if this helps any, and I don't remember the exact Mods. Will look them up tomorrow.

~RIch

Found it. p15 Refs Manual.

when working with more advanced tech than your used to: -1 skill level per TL that the tech is above your TL category. ( my TL is 11, Avg stellar [TL11 -13], the ship is TL15, so -2 skill levels to a min of skill lvl 1)

And a -1 skill Level per category lower the tech is than your used to. (my TL is 15 [High Stellar], the facility is Early Stellar [TL 9 - 10], 2 categories lower, so - 2 levels, minimum of skill lvl 1)

In either case, skill level can not be reduced lower than 1.

I hope knowing how its been done in the past helps.

~Rich

 

[McPerth]

I remembered the rule, but I though it was even harsher (difficult levels, instead of skill).

In this case, an Average Stellar TL medic acting on a preindustrial planet, see his skill youd be reduced by 4. So even a Doctor with medical 5 (quite good at his work, probably known far beyond his city) will be as good as a paramedic (Level 1). In fact, I stress that probably the paramedic would be more confortable at it than the famous doctor told about.

Still keeping MT is my favorite version...

 

[Icosahedron]

Sorry, I should have said that armour fell out of favour after the 1400s not in the 1400s. Except for increasingly ceremonial purposes and occasional attempts to update it with impossibly heavy plates. Modern materials are currently giving it a (temporary?) resurgence. Nevertheless, the point I was helpfully trying to make is still valid: Mediaeval armour will not stop a modern bullet, but is moderately effective against a sword. The rules you choose for weapons and armour should reflect that.

The medical issue depends to a large extent on YTU. If you have a universe of radically different worlds, each with their own flora and fauna, then medics may struggle without local knowledge, but if worlds have been terraformed or become homogenised over millennia, then knowledge will be more universal. In a related effect, the more individual worlds are, the more a medic will need to study different factors. Certainly a doctor who spends his life visiting a variety of worlds will cultivate techniques that are efficacious in a variety of situations, perhaps unlike a medic who spends his life dirtside in a robotic clean room, passing yet another RTA victim through the ER conveyor belt. It may even be a requirement for shipboard medics to learn ‘field medicine and surgery’. Certainly someone aboard should have Survival skill in that type of TU.

However, the second point I was making also remains valid: A crash landing that is mild enough for the crew to survive is unlikely to destroy stocks of engineering and medical supplies and equipment, most of which are considerably more damage resistant than the human body. Normal and cannibal stocks will last a very long time, more than long enough for someone to notice the ship is missing and organise a search and rescue.

Whether the crew escape the gallows/stake for that long is probably a matter for their interpersonal skills more than their ammo supply or their (non-existent) sword and bow skills. Which was my third point.

 

[aramis]

14ga steel plate over silk over cotton quilt will in fact nicely stop many pistol rounds, Icosahedron. A buddy of mine did some destructive tests. The steel slows it, the silk deforms and keeps it from penetrating the cotton, which spreads the force out. And the 14ga will just dead-stop a .22LR.

It will hurt. It will injure. But it will stop the bullet from going into the body itself. Which is all, really, that a kevlar vest does. Kevlar doesn't stop the energy - it spreads it out and prevents direct disruption of tissue, but often results in shattered ribs.

 

[Timerover51]

Sorry, I should have said that armour fell out of favour after the 1400s not in the 1400s. Except for increasingly ceremonial purposes and occasional attempts to update it with impossibly heavy plates. Modern materials are currently giving it a (temporary?) resurgence. Nevertheless, the point I was helpfully trying to make is still valid: Mediaeval armour will not stop a modern bullet, but is moderately effective against a sword. The rules you choose for weapons and armour should reflect that.

Most armor after 1400 was proofed by having pistol bullets fired at it at close range. If only dented, it passed proof. To penetrate some of the later plate armor, at least the back and breast plates required a heavy musket firing a lead ball weighing an ounce or more. Against anything short of a two-handed sword or halberd, plate armor provided pretty much complete protection. At the Battle of Lepanto in 1571, Don John of Austria, the Christian commander, wore a suit of full plate armor and used a two-handed sword in leading the attack on the Turkish flagship. The armor stopped everything fired at him, including some Turkish musket balls.

Pikemen wore back and breast plates throughout the 1600s during the 30 Years War and the English Civil War, until the pike went out of use with the introduction of the socket bayonet in the 1680s. Cavalry wore at least back and breast armor, in some cases, up through and past the Napoleonic Era simply because it could be made to stop pistols bullets and sword/saber strokes. Troopers who did not have back and breast armor would at least wear a 'buff coat" or heavy leather coat made of bull's hide, which was capable of stopping a normal saber stroke.

Again, I would highly recommend that you do some reading in Oman's Art of War in the Middle Ages (volume 2) and his Art of War in the Sixteenth Century for a better understanding of the use of armor and weapons of that period.

However, the second point I was making also remains valid: A crash landing that is mild enough for the crew to survive is unlikely to destroy stocks of engineering and medical supplies and equipment, most of which are considerably more damage resistant than the human body. Normal and cannibal stocks will last a very long time, more than long enough for someone to notice the ship is missing and organise a search and rescue.

How much medical equipment do you expect the average civilian ship or small military ship to be carrying? The typical merchant ship now carries a medical kit about the size of a large suitcase, with a medical handbook detailing typical diseases and injuries and how do treat them, along with a selection of drugs and bandages, to include some splints. I would anticipate a similar type kit on board in Traveller. A military ship would likely be carrying more. As for engineering supplies, those are probably going to be focuses on the ship's power plant and drives, and a lot of those are likely to be swap-out circuit boards. Mechanical engineering supplies are likely to be at a minimum, as there would be no need unless the ship was carrying something like an ATV as standard equipment. A Free Trader would like carry more supplies of both, but again, that would be for caring for the crew and vital ship equipment. A ship is not likely to have a full-scale machine shop onboard.

As for lasting long enough for someone to mount a search and rescue expedition, that might be the case for a military or Scout ship, or the ship of a major commercial line. Who is going to mount one for a Free Trader or retired Scout or a private ship? Who is going to even care or know if they are missing?

 

[Icosahedron]

I'll gladly bow to the superior knowledge of the armourers amongst us, though I'll still argue that armour will be significantly less effective against modern firearms than it was against firearms of the time.

I think again it may be a MTU vs YTU thing. A lot will depend on what firearms you're carrying - and, to link in the the other part of the discussion, what medical and engineering supplies you're carrying.
My players generally don't work on the principle of "What does a coastal fishing boat carry today? Ok that'll do for me, too." They tend to go with "What do I think the GM will throw at me this time and what's the best I can afford to carry?"
If at all possible, they try to carry Assault rifles, lasers, Snubs with HEAPs, Striker's Company Casualty Clearing Station and Mechanical Workshop modular kits as a minimum. Just a handgun, a medical bag and a couple of PCBs would be near-naked IMTU. YMMV.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

One thing that might be intriguing, if not outrageously potent, would be the portable near-infinite (compared to your time on-planet, hopefully) power source. Just having heat and electricity in a primitive culture would let you do *some* things that would increase likelihood of survival (cooking your food thoroughly) or amaze the locals (light with no flame).