Armor and technology levels (TL)

[McPerth]

One thing that might be intriguing, if not outrageously potent, would be the portable near-infinite (compared to your time on-planet, hopefully) power source. Just having heat and electricity in a primitive culture would let you do *some* things that would increase likelihood of survival (cooking your food thoroughly) or amaze the locals (light with no flame).

That's why I talked about having some solar cells (probably canibalized form other equipment). As low power imput as they have, they could (with time) reacharge most batteries. It's just up to the players not to spend their scarce power faster than they can recharge it.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

Well, a fusion power source wouldn't need recharging, though it would need more hydrogen. Or a bunch of stuff from the local garbage pit if it's a Mr. Fusion.

 

[McPerth]

If you look at the fuel efficiency rate of CT and MT fusion plants, they will need enough hydrogen as not to say they don't need recharging :devil:.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

They could probably drill a well and suck enough water out of the ground to supply it. Maybe even out of the air. (This assumes their scoops/purifier/whatever isn't broken, of course.)

 

[Frankymole]

Jack and Mesh were the wrong way around in one of the tech level tables in either the LBBs or Basic/Traveller Book... does anyone know definitely which TLs jack and mesh ought to appear at?

 

[Timerover51]

Jack and Mesh were the wrong way around in one of the tech level tables in either the LBBs or Basic/Traveller Book... does anyone know definitely which TLs jack and mesh ought to appear at?

Jack would be available at Tech Level 0 to 1, as being around at the start of the Bronze Age, and going forward. Mesh, i.e. Chain Mail, might be Tech Level 1 ro 2, depending on where you put the Iron age. Chain Mail was used somewhere around the 3rd century or so BC.

 

[Timerover51]

Here is some interesting data on armor penetration using some pretty potent black powder weapons. The "drachm" Baker is referring to is a measure of weight equal to 1/16th of an ounce of 437.5 grains. The rifles used by Baker probably had a black powder efficiency of about 20 to 22 foot pounds of muzzle energy per grain of powder. Given his care at loading, energy yield would likely be close to the 22 foot pounds per grain. The rifle was firing a spherical belted ball. Baker was one of the leading big game hunters in the world during the Victorian Era. The excerpt comes from his book on Ceylon.

I once tried a very conclusive experiment on the power of balls of various metals propelled by an equal charge of powder.

I had a piece of wrought iron five-eights of an inch thick, and six feet high by two in breadth. I fired at this at one hundred and seventy yards with my two-grooved four-ounce rifle, with a reduced charge of six drachms of powder and a ball of pure lead. It bulged the iron like a piece of putty, and split the centre of the bulged spot into a star, through the crevice of which I could pass a pen-blade.

A ball composed of half zinc and half lead, fired from the same distance, hardly produced a perceptible effect upon the iron target. It just slightly indented it.

I then tried a ball of one-third zinc and two-thirds lead, but there was no perceptible difference in the effect.

I subsequently tried a tin ball, and again a zinc ball, but neither of them produced any other effect than slightly to indent the iron.

I tried all these experiments again at fifty yards' range, with the same advantage in favor of the pure lead; and at this reduced distance a double-barreled No. 16 smoothbore, with a large charge of four drachms of powder and a lead ball, also bulged and split the iron into a star. This gun, with a hard tin ball and the same charge of powder, did not produce any other effect than an almost imperceptible indentation.

if a person wishes to harden a bill for any purpose, it should be done by an admixture of quicksilver to the lead while the latter is in a state of fusion, a few seconds before the ball is cast. The mixture must be then quickly stirred with an iron rod, and formed into the moulds without loss of time, as at this high temperature the quicksilver will evaporate. Quicksilver is heavier than lead, and makes a ball excessively hard; so much so that it would very soon spoil a rifle. Altogether, the hardening of a ball has been shown to be perfectly unnecessary, and the latter receipt would be found very expensive.

If a wonderful effect is required, the steel-tipped conical ball should be used. I once shot through fourteen elm planks, each one inch thick, with a four-ounce steel-tipped cone, with the small charge (for that rifle) of four drachms of powder. The proper charge for that gun is one-fourth the weight of the ball, or one ounce of powder, with which it carries with great nicety and terrific effect, owing to its great weight of metal (twenty-one pounds); but it is a small piece of artillery which tries the shoulder very severely in the recoil.

The 5/8 inch of wrought iron, 0.625 inches, would approximate 0.24 inches of hard steel plate in resisting penetration. The conversion factor from wrought iron to hardened steel is 2.6 to 1.

 

[Icosahedron]

Jack and Mesh were the wrong way around in one of the tech level tables in either the LBBs or Basic/Traveller Book... does anyone know definitely which TLs jack and mesh ought to appear at?

Jack would be available at Tech Level 0 to 1, as being around at the start of the Bronze Age, and going forward. Mesh, i.e. Chain Mail, might be Tech Level 1 ro 2, depending on where you put the Iron age. Chain Mail was used somewhere around the 3rd century or so BC.

Mesh is described in LBB1 (1977) as "similar to chain mail but lighter and stronger." This suggests that chain mail is inferior in protection and that Mesh will be available at a higher TL.

Striker (1981) lists: Jack TL1, Mesh TL4.

 

[Timerover51]

Mesh is described in LBB1 (1977) as "similar to chain mail but lighter and stronger." This suggests that chain mail is inferior in protection and that Mesh will be available at a higher TL.

Striker (1981) lists: Jack TL1, Mesh TL4.

Mesh armor is only good at stopping hand weapons, principally cutting and slashing weapons, and does little to stop something like a bodkin arrow, crossbow bolt, or bullet from a gunpowder weapon. Putting it at Tech Level 4, which is presumably somewhere around 1800 or so makes little to no sense whatsoever.

As for mesh being "lighter and stronger" than chain mail, short of getting into something like titanium, I am not exactly sure how you are going to do that if you are using iron as your base material. If mesh is only available at higher Tech Levels, exactly where does Chain Mail, which is definitely superior to Jack, fit in then or even appear in the armor scheme?

 

[mike wightman]

Mesh armour in Traveller is not chain mail.

Go and read the Dumarest novels to find out what the CT idea of mesh is.

 

[Icosahedron]

Mesh armor is only good at stopping hand weapons, principally cutting and slashing weapons, and does little to stop something like a bodkin arrow, crossbow bolt, or bullet from a gunpowder weapon. Putting it at Tech Level 4, which is presumably somewhere around 1800 or so makes little to no sense whatsoever.

As for mesh being "lighter and stronger" than chain mail, short of getting into something like titanium, I am not exactly sure how you are going to do that if you are using iron as your base material. If mesh is only available at higher Tech Levels, exactly where does Chain Mail, which is definitely superior to Jack, fit in then or even appear in the armor scheme?

Dunno. I didn't write the rules, I'm just letting you know what they say.

I haven't read Dumarest, but I'd imagine that Mesh works on a similar principle to Cloth and whereas original chain mail is definitely iron, there's no saying what material Mesh is made from. The original rules didn't cover chain mail, so you'd have to decide for yourself where to fit it in (unless a later rule set covers it).
Traveller's combat rules are far from perfect.

 

[aramis]

Modern double-ring mail is lighter, better at stopping arrows and blades, more durable than Medieval chain. It's not just the difference between steel and iron, but also the use of machine links, microwelds, and being able to make the link a coil rather than just a ring (providing extra expansion potential). But Mesh isn't of need ring.

It could be the dumarest style "woven wire inside plastic". Metal reinforced spectra has been proposed for new body armors for police - the metal mesh to slow blades, and to aid the spectra in resisting "blunt trauma from deformation", with the spectra to stop bullets and blades as well. (Spectra is much better vs blades than is kevlar. Cutting it to make fencing armor is a nightmare!)

 

[McPerth]

It could be the dumarest style "woven wire inside plastic". Metal reinforced spectra has been proposed for new body armors for police - the metal mesh to slow blades, and to aid the spectra in resisting "blunt trauma from deformation", with the spectra to stop bullets and blades as well. (Spectra is much better vs blades than is kevlar. Cutting it to make fencing armor is a nightmare!)

Could it be built at TL 4 as mesh is in CT?

 

[Timerover51]

Modern double-ring mail is lighter, better at stopping arrows and blades, more durable than Medieval chain. It's not just the difference between steel and iron, but also the use of machine links, microwelds, and being able to make the link a coil rather than just a ring (providing extra expansion potential). But Mesh isn't of need ring.

It could be the dumarest style "woven wire inside plastic". Metal reinforced spectra has been proposed for new body armors for police - the metal mesh to slow blades, and to aid the spectra in resisting "blunt trauma from deformation", with the spectra to stop bullets and blades as well. (Spectra is much better vs blades than is kevlar. Cutting it to make fencing armor is a nightmare!)

I will defer to your vast and infinite knowledge of all things concerning armor, ammunition, weapons, and cease making any more comments regarding them, as clearly, I am mistaken in all such areas.

 

[aramis]

I will defer to your vast and infinite knowledge of all things concerning armor, ammunition, weapons, and cease making any more comments regarding them, as clearly, I am mistaken in all such areas.

I have friends who destructively tested modern machine made chain (gauntlets intended for guys doing work in industrial fish packing lines) vs their purchased modern iron wire, modern steel wire, and hand forged iron link chain. SCAers all.

I'm not certain if fishcutter's gauntlets count as mesh, but I can say they allowed less penetration (and a bit more blunt trauma) to the watermellon under than medieval style chain, especially over a quilted arming cap.

And the Dumarest mesh is VERY much a woven metal mesh in a plastic jacket. Possibly made to look like leather.

 

[Jame]

Thanks for the ideas.

The players are crashing on this planet, and only know roughly about weapons and armor used in the era due to holoreels or holodisks. Due to the latter, no one is an expert, but knows of the weapons.

I did not think this far ahead, but players would be only able to build armor and weapons of the time period. Once lasers charges and bullets run out, the players will be force to use crossbows, swords, axes, etc.

I will see if I can find the Challenge magazines made mention.

Thanks

I would say that the PCs would not be able to make the weapons/armor of the locals unless their background is in manufacturing or they have a couple of ranks in Craft Blacksmith as a hobby. They could still USE the weapons/armor, of course...

Aren't lasers able to be charged from a ship's generator if it still works?

 

[atpollard]

Mesh armour in Traveller is not chain mail.

Go and read the Dumarest novels to find out what the CT idea of mesh is.

Just as a 'public service' (FYI) sort of thing:

Classic Traveller Mesh Armor: "A jacket or body suit made of natural or synthetic leather and reinforced with a lining of flexible metal mesh, similar to chain mail but lighter and stronger"

Dumarest Armor: "Looking down he saw scratches in the gray plastic of his tunic. They were deep enough to reveal the gleam of protective mesh buried in the material" (Jester, 13)

Use or ignore as you see fit.
(I got no dog in this fight.)

 

[Timerover51]

I have friends who destructively tested modern machine made chain (gauntlets intended for guys doing work in industrial fish packing lines) vs their purchased modern iron wire, modern steel wire, and hand forged iron link chain. SCAers all.

I'm not certain if fishcutter's gauntlets count as mesh, but I can say they allowed less penetration (and a bit more blunt trauma) to the watermellon under than medieval style chain, especially over a quilted arming cap.

And the Dumarest mesh is VERY much a woven metal mesh in a plastic jacket. Possibly made to look like leather.

Having never read the Dumarest of Terro novels, I have not to foggiest idea nor do I particularly care what he did or did not wear.

As I indicated, you clearly have an infinitely greater knowledge of armor, weapon, ammunition, and weapon effects development over the past 5,000 years since the Sumerians and into the far future then I can possibly ever have.

 

[atpollard]

[Chainmail] armor is only good at stopping hand weapons, principally cutting and slashing weapons, and does little to stop something like a bodkin arrow, crossbow bolt, or bullet from a gunpowder weapon. Putting it at Tech Level 4, which is presumably somewhere around 1800 or so makes little to no sense whatsoever.

As for mesh being "lighter and stronger" than chain mail, short of getting into something like titanium, I am not exactly sure how you are going to do that if you are using iron as your base material. If mesh is only available at higher Tech Levels, exactly where does Chain Mail, which is definitely superior to Jack, fit in then or even appear in the armor scheme?

TL 4 in Classic Traveller is roughly 1860 to 1900. By that time Titanium was known and its extraction was [just barely] possible. So a flexible composite armor like Mesh, could indeed be stronger and lighter than chainmail due to the use of titanium - it just says 'metal' in the rule book.

As you point out, this does indeed create a gap between the TL 1 Leather Armor and the TL 4 Mesh ("bullet proof vest") that was historically filled by chainmail and medieval plate armors. From the description of TL 4 mesh, we know that chainmail is heavier and weaker than mesh, so that provides a starting point for stating out the missing armors.

Personally, I would copy the protection for mesh and make medieval chainmail both heavier and more expensive ... hand wrought links are going to take a lot more fabrication man-hours than machine drawn wire, and steel is heavier than titanium. YMMV.

 

[rancke]

TL 4 in Classic Traveller is roughly 1860 to 1900.

Not quite. The technology that we had on Earth between 1860 and 1900 corresponds roughly to TL4, but it's not a perfect fit. TL4, for example, covers revolvers, but rifles and pistols (magazine weapons, I presume) are TL5. Yet the first revolver patent was issued in 1836 (TL 3! ) although arguably the kinks weren't ironed out completely until 1847 (Still TL3, though). And the first magazine rifles showed up at the beginning of that 1860-1900 period. So it seems like we on Earth were advanced in weapons technology. Who'da thunk?


Hans