General Armor and Weapons As Mustering Out Benefits

[Condottiere]

Offence and defence tend to even out at their technological levels; it should be gauss weapons versus combat armour.

Game mechanicswise, the default advanced combat rifle round has the same damage potential as the default assault rifle round, with an eighty percent increase in effective range, a kilogramme lighter, presumably a faster rate of fire and lighter ammunition.

 

[nobby-w]

[ . . . ]
Even with military electronics, there's likely no need for a 50 year shelf life on it.

IBM guarantees parts for 40 years for their mainframe products, and DEC used to use manufacturing techniques designed for avionics to produce components for the VAX. You can make electronics with a nice, long shelf life if you want to spend money.

Capacitors are really what craps out most of the time, although this can vary with the type of capacitor. Whether a battery could be made to last that long is another problem. Modern batteries don't have that long a shelf life although there is research in progress into nano-material based technologies that could radically increase the shelf and service life of lithium cells.

Having said this, a conventional projectile weapon is purely mechanical, and ammunition technology has allowed it to have shelf lives of half a century or more while still remaining viable. One could argue that with current technology we don't really have a pressing need to go with radically different technology than we have now - maybe bigger and more powerful if some significant improvement in body armour technology becomes widespread.

However, if something equivalent to TL11 combat armour were come onto the market, then you could (per Striker) armour infantry with something equivalent to 20mm of RHA. With current armour piercing technology (if you take something like a .50 cal SLAP round as a benchmark) then you might need a rifle with a muzzle energy in the 10kJ range to be effective against that type of armour. Better armour piercing tech might bring that down a bit.

At that point you've got a disruptive innovation that needs something better. Perhaps a gauss rifle that can fire a lighter projectile at higher velocities. Maybe superdense materials could be used to make the penetrators of such ammunition. If you go down that route you've still got to make a rifle that can be deployed in the field and stored and serviced with reasonably practical logistics. Problems of shelf life would have to be solved for whatever technology was employed.

 

[kilemall]

I donno.

I'm beginning to doubt it's efficacy.

In game mechanic effects, it's slightly less effective than a Survivalist round, basically a twenty two long rifle, and apparently, our laws of war outlaw high explosive smallarms ammunition.

Outlaws em on planets, not ships.


Ships that have planetary bombardment missiles and lasers, mind you.

 

[kilemall]

Offence and defence tend to even out at their technological levels; it should be gauss weapons versus combat armour.

Game mechanicswise, the default advanced combat rifle round has the same damage potential as the default assault rifle round, with an eighty percent increase in effective range, a kilogramme lighter, presumably a faster rate of fire and lighter ammunition.

Hmm, Striker has the Gauss being not much more of a penetrator over ACR but putting on one helluva personal machine gun at great ranges, twice as much ammo per clip, and mostly equal to the assault rifle's best damage at 3-5x the range.



Big part of why I prefer the Striker mechanics over CT or others, that range thing matters both in pen and damage.


The 'sleeper' ability of the ACR is in that HE round against just cloth/CES or less equipped opponents. I guess the Geneva Convention is over with by TL10.

 

[RandyB]

Hmm, Striker has the Gauss being not much more of a penetrator over ACR but putting on one helluva personal machine gun at great ranges, twice as much ammo per clip, and mostly equal to the assault rifle's best damage at 3-5x the range.



Big part of why I prefer the Striker mechanics over CT or others, that range thing matters both in pen and damage.


The 'sleeper' ability of the ACR is in that HE round against just cloth/CES or less equipped opponents. I guess the Geneva Convention is over with by TL10.

Historically, treaties have not outlasted their signatories. No reason to believe that will change in any projected future.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Hmm, Striker has the Gauss being not much more of a penetrator over ACR but putting on one helluva personal machine gun at great ranges, twice as much ammo per clip, and mostly equal to the assault rifle's best damage at 3-5x the range.



Big part of why I prefer the Striker mechanics over CT or others, that range thing matters both in pen and damage.


The 'sleeper' ability of the ACR is in that HE round against just cloth/CES or less equipped opponents. I guess the Geneva Convention is over with by TL10.

Nope. You simply don't target personnel with HE rounds. What you do is target something inanimate behind them, and if they happen to get in the way, they're collateral damage. Regrettable of course, but legal. Works for WP and napalm ('scuse me -- it's "Incindi-gel" now) too.

They're legal for anti-materiel use, but illegal for anti-personnel use.

 

[kilemall]

Nope. You simply don't target personnel with HE rounds. What you do is target something inanimate behind them, and if they happen to get in the way, they're collateral damage. Regrettable of course, but legal. Works for WP and napalm ('scuse me -- it's "Incindi-gel" now) too.

They're legal for anti-materiel use, but illegal for anti-personnel use.

Hmm, well I am postulating a more or less spacefaring version of the current nationalities IMTU, with treaties still in play and one of the major story lines is someone IS making ACR HE rounds out in the Cloud and someone is planning to use them at some point. So it's an actual story line hence my focus on direct anti-personnel use.

 

[Condottiere]

In war, hollow point is illegal as well.

Not for law enforcement.

Also, how effective are ten millimetre slugs at I believe one hundred fifty metres per second?

 

[kilemall]

In war, hollow point is illegal as well.

Not for law enforcement.

Also, how effective are ten millimetre slugs at I believe one hundred fifty metres per second?

I assume you are referring to snub pistol rounds, yes?


LE at least in the US can use hollow point, it has both that stopping power long as the target isn't armored and it is less likely to penetrate walls very far. The treaty limits are more for rifle rounds that are going to lay on one heck of a hurting. I have Striker rules for that in my CT thread.
So yes, snub pistols are more a 'ship security' weapon, it's range problems make it less then ideal for combat anyway. So it might get a pass on Geneva type limitations.


Hmm, gets me thinking- perhaps the correct form factor for the Accelerator round is a pistol.
You don't have recoil or increased range/power from a longer barrel, so doesn't matter that you put a rifle-sized round in a pistol frame. Just fewer rounds and maybe a little less range accuracy, same rifle pen at long range function.
Yes, seems to work like an SMG but longer range punch and zero-G advantage, at the expense of vulnerability close in.

 

[wellis]

Nope. You simply don't target personnel with HE rounds. What you do is target something inanimate behind them, and if they happen to get in the way, they're collateral damage. Regrettable of course, but legal. Works for WP and napalm ('scuse me -- it's "Incindi-gel" now) too.

They're legal for anti-materiel use, but illegal for anti-personnel use.

Isn't that actually a misconception, like the claim that .50 explosive bullets are illegal to use against enemy personnel?

 

[whartung]

IBM guarantees parts for 40 years for their mainframe products, and DEC used to use manufacturing techniques designed for avionics to produce components for the VAX. You can make electronics with a nice, long shelf life if you want to spend money.

IBM and DEC don't have their electronics running around in snow, sand, mud, rain, and 110 degree heat in the hands of someone named "Joe".

Having said this, a conventional projectile weapon is purely mechanical, and ammunition technology has allowed it to have shelf lives of half a century or more while still remaining viable. One could argue that with current technology we don't really have a pressing need to go with radically different technology than we have now - maybe bigger and more powerful if some significant improvement in body armour technology becomes widespread.

Yes, conventional weapons are, but we were talking about Gauss Rifles -- which are unconventional even if ubiquitous.

The AR-15 pattern rifle is the US Military's longest serving long arm (50+ years now I guess). It's fair to say that fire arm technology suitable for the field has plateaued.

Companies and militaries have been working on next generation rifles for quite some time, but nothing of note has broken through in terms of high technology. They seem to have most of the problems with bullpups solved apparently, however.

 

[Panzerkraken]

The AR-15 pattern rifle is the US Military's longest serving long arm (50+ years now I guess). It's fair to say that fire arm technology suitable for the field has plateaued.

Companies and militaries have been working on next generation rifles for quite some time, but nothing of note has broken through in terms of high technology. They seem to have most of the problems with bullpups solved apparently, however.

I think you'll find that honor belongs to the M14, still in active service as the Mk 14 EBR.

However, I agree with you on the firearms technology plateauing. I had a nice, rousing argument the other day with a friend over bullpup vs. traditional vs. alternate layout (G11/P90) for action in a combat rifle. We never did settle on one being better than the other, it all comes down to what's comfortable for the users.

 

[CaptRet]

Never really saw the concern, but we’ve always played in Outland/Firefly type campaigns where rifles, pistols and knives were to be expected. But the heavier stuff we always steered away from, even for Army and Marine characters. Kept it special when every once in a while a VRF Gauss gun or a PGMP was in play.

Maybe he shipped it home a few pieces at a time ?

 

[Condottiere]

I did a little research on the ssubject of advanced combat rifles and the US Army last week, to figure out likely Confederation slugthrower policies.

They conducted tests thirty years ago to find a replacement, and it seems that unless there was at least an overall fifty percent improvement in performance, which none of the candidates had, it wasn't worth their while.

They concluded that required High Explosive tipped bullets.

However, it does seem that the rifle and probably the cartridge slowly evolved since then, to suit current doctrines and battlefield experiences.

The next big innovations are likely reliable caseless rounds and dead on sighting and tracking, meaning lighter ammunition and one shot one kill.

There's going to be a tension between outranging your opponents and closing the gap.

 

[CaptRet]

Beginning in 2014, the US Army began evaluation of a "smart rifle" (made by Tracking Point), that has laser sights and a built-in computer. The ACR is not long in coming.
Quoting from the Daily Mail article:

A laser rangefinder is used by the shooter looking through the scope to identify the target that he or she wants to hit.The high-tech sight then takes into account humidity, wind and the typical ballistic drop from a bullet fired over a distance.Once the target has been selected, the scope provides cross-hairs which have to be lined up with the pin that is dropped on the target. To ensure accuracy, the shooter can not even squeeze the trigger unless the cross-hairs and pin are aligned.

 

[kilemall]

I did a little research on the ssubject of advanced combat rifles and the US Army last week, to figure out likely Confederation slugthrower policies.

They conducted tests thirty years ago to find a replacement, and it seems that unless there was at least an overall fifty percent improvement in performance, which none of the candidates had, it wasn't worth their while.

They concluded that required High Explosive tipped bullets.

However, it does seem that the rifle and probably the cartridge slowly evolved since then, to suit current doctrines and battlefield experiences.

The next big innovations are likely reliable caseless rounds and dead on sighting and tracking, meaning lighter ammunition and one shot one kill.

There's going to be a tension between outranging your opponents and closing the gap.

Since that contest was actually called ACR, I'm assuming that is what prompted that naming and firearm qualities in our game rifle, with built-in assumptions that some advanced tech really better then current panned out.


One of the things I like about original Striker was that interplay between armor and weapon development, with sometimes offense and sometimes protection having the upper hand.

 

[kilemall]

Beginning in 2014, the US Army began evaluation of a "smart rifle" (made by Tracking Point), that has laser sights and a built-in computer. The ACR is not long in coming.
Quoting from the Daily Mail article:

A laser rangefinder is used by the shooter looking through the scope to identify the target that he or she wants to hit.The high-tech sight then takes into account humidity, wind and the typical ballistic drop from a bullet fired over a distance.Once the target has been selected, the scope provides cross-hairs which have to be lined up with the pin that is dropped on the target. To ensure accuracy, the shooter can not even squeeze the trigger unless the cross-hairs and pin are aligned.

To me that would be the advent of the 'electronic sight' from CT.


The game ACR proper is a bit beastly- in Striker it's penetration and effective/long range is equal to the TL6 HMG, I'm assuming that's effectively an M2 .50 cal. To me, the ACR is a hightech G11 that works out the bugs.


The ACR is quite the leap-small ammo packing such a wallop, probably materials technology to allow for a barrel that is handling very high pressures, whatever quality measures for said barrel to handle auto fire, and a lot of recoil tech to handle the increased power.

The common rifleman carrying a handheld M2 in rifle form certainly is a jump in firepower.

 

[whulorigan]

The ACR is quite the leap-small ammo packing such a wallop, probably materials technology to allow for a barrel that is handling very high pressures, whatever quality measures for said barrel to handle auto fire, and a lot of recoil tech to handle the increased power.

I have always interpreted the ACR to use an outgrowth of or advancement upon Electrothermal Chemical (ETC) propellant (introduced in TNE also, IIRC).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrothermal-chemical_technology

 

[kilemall]

I have always interpreted the ACR to use an outgrowth of or advancement upon Electrothermal Chemical (ETC) propellant (introduced in TNE also, IIRC).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrothermal-chemical_technology

<Shrug> LBB4 doesn't specify, I am going with the round weights but plenty of room for other interpretations. Whatever makes you feel fuzzy, a happy 'my world is the way I like it' ref is likely more at ease with his reffing.

 

[Condottiere]

One difference is that caseless rounds are reliable enough to use in full automatic, and I would presume that the manufacturing process would make them cheaper than the cased ones we have today.

Since the propellant part of the round is completely consumed, you don't need an ejection slot, though removing a dud might be more complicated, which is why I assume it's one reason it's technological level ten, where this may happen once in five, ten or a hundred thousand times.

I might be misremembering, but nine millimetre bullets were conceived to have a six millimetre sabot, six millimetres the normal ACR bullet, and a Pournelle invented compromise between NATO standard and the previous one; sabots, I'm told, tend to bounce around on the ground when firing from a prone position, possibly back to the shooter, and his friends shouldn't stand too close to him.