General Armor and Weapons As Mustering Out Benefits

[AnotherDilbert]

I used to use Striker (which was even worse for this, if anything) and handled it by toning down the autofire bonus and and dex mods, and introducing rules for armour piercing rounds that capped the positive bonus on the personal wound table.

Sorry, I don't understand. I used CT Striker too, but I can't remember the Gauss Rifle being outstanding, it's just a bit better that an ACR, but not that much?

It has a bit better penetration, range, and autofire bonus, but worse Dex DM. The gauss rifle will not achieve many more hits, if at all. Neither will penetrate hitech battle dress or combat armour.



In the LBB1 system +4/+7 is only against unarmoured targets, against which even an auto-rifle is quite sufficient to kill everyone in sight, as far as I can recall.

An LMG can fire 5 ten round bursts at +6 vs unarmoured (or up to 15 with panic fire), each burst potentially doing 21D damage for a total of 315D damage in the extreme case. Isn't that even more overpowered?

 

[CaptRet]

I think the biggest issue is that the gauss rifle increases the odds (over other slug throwers) of the projectile penetrating higher grade/TL individual armor (especially combat armor and battle dress). As government forces (Imp Marines, army, law enforcement, etc.) are apt to be in armor, that increases the odds of civilian access to weapons that could cause casualties among such forces.

 

[Condottiere]

Within the Traveller context, small arms slug throwers upto gauss rifles seem a viable mustering out benefit, especially if it's obtained and stored in a permissive legal environment, like your own spaceship.

Most jurisdictions will permit licensed weapons if the user can demonstrate a need for it.

Importing restricted weapons even temporarily probably requires aforementioned demonstration of need, followed by red tape and expensive licensing, possibly the process lubricated through networking and liberal distribution of funds.

 

[Diveguy]

IMTU I actually tend towards a model of "Service members are typically given there service weapon when discharged, and are expected to maintain proficiency with it" for several of my polities. This provides a nice militia/reserve base to supplement the main forces when required. Sort of based on the Swiss model as it were, but not 100%.

 

[nobby-w]

[ . . . ]
An LMG can fire 5 ten round bursts at +6 vs unarmoured (or up to 15 with panic fire), each burst potentially doing 21D damage for a total of 315D damage in the extreme case. Isn't that even more overpowered?

Why yes it is, now that you mention it, although that doesn't make he Gauss Rifle any less overpowered.

 

[kilemall]

Sorry, I don't understand. I used CT Striker too, but I can't remember the Gauss Rifle being outstanding, it's just a bit better that an ACR, but not that much?

It has a bit better penetration, range, and autofire bonus, but worse Dex DM. The gauss rifle will not achieve many more hits, if at all. Neither will penetrate hitech battle dress or combat armour.

The Gauss Rifle is more likely to pile up a lot of minor wounds against CA armored opponents which adds up to Major pretty quick and neutralizes CES armor.


In my hopped up mutated version it's more like to generate more hits some of which could be lethal chest/head shots and others various limb extremities, so 1-6D with a trend towards 2D with the increased protection of Combat Armor.



Unarmored is a more serious matter, Gauss Rifles work out to delivering the same per round penetration/damage as a .50 cal round. It's effectively a .50 cal MG in a combat auto-rifle format.


For reliable lower tech can-opening I would go with a TL12 railgun version of a LAG, and of course at TL13+ the x-ray lasers become the standard light arm for short of PG/FGMP operations.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I used CT Striker too, but I can't remember the Gauss Rifle being outstanding, it's just a bit better that an ACR, but not that much?

It has a bit better penetration, range, and autofire bonus, but worse Dex DM. The gauss rifle will not achieve many more hits, if at all. Neither will penetrate hitech battle dress or combat armour.

The Gauss Rifle is more likely to pile up a lot of minor wounds against CA armored opponents which adds up to Major pretty quick ...

Against, lower tech armour, yes, but not against TL14+ armour, presumably used by the major combatants (Impie, Zho, Solomani, etc).

... and neutralizes CES armor.

As does the ACR with DS ammunition.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

An LMG can fire 5 ten round bursts at +6 vs unarmoured (or up to 15 with panic fire), each burst potentially doing 21D damage for a total of 315D damage in the extreme case. Isn't that even more overpowered?

Why yes it is, now that you mention it, although that doesn't make he Gauss Rifle any less overpowered.

Why would anyone bother to use hi-tech gauss weapons to mow down unarmoured troops (or more likely civilians?) when low tech machine guns are much more effective?


Gauss rifles are made for the hi-tech battlefield where armour is ubiquitous, it effect against unarmoured troops are just an irrelevant side-effect.

Gauss rifles are meant to fight combat armour and battle dress:

Tech level 13: All infantry is generally now in combat armor and equipped with gauss rifles. Battle dress is issued to selected assault troops.

ACRs are meant to fight cloth-type armour:

Tech level 10: The basic infantry weapon becomes the advanced combat rifle capable of firing a 4 cm RAM grenade. Personal uniform consists of the combat environment suit, and all helmets incorporate radio communication gear and IR/light amplification night vision sensors.

 

[kilemall]

Against, lower tech armour, yes, but not against TL14+ armour, presumably used by the major combatants (Impie, Zho, Solomani, etc).



As does the ACR with DS ammunition.

In general the gauss brings improvements in ammo weight/count, range, and autofire against light targets. It goes obsolete same as any other weapon past a point.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

In general the gauss brings improvements in ammo weight/count, range, and autofire against light targets. It goes obsolete same as any other weapon past a point.

Quite, but that only makes the Gauss rifle a bit better, at a bit higher TL, than its predecessors, not massively overpowered.

 

[nobby-w]

[ . . . ]
Gauss rifles are meant to fight combat armour and battle dress:


ACRs are meant to fight cloth-type armour:

Are you trying to argue that gauss rifles are not overpowered because they're intended to be used against armoured targets?

In both CT and Striker, weapons intended for use against armoured targets tend to be insta-kill against targets not wearing heavy armour. The RAW for both systems largely conflate armour penetration ability with damage and don't really accommodate armour piercing rounds that don't necessarily do lots of damage when they hit. This is one of the key balance issues with the systems.

Here are some probabilities - Assume a protagonist armed with a gauss rifle firing at a target wearing cloth armour. Skill 2, no dex mods, effective range. Death=9D house rule.

Roll	Hits	Av. Dam
2	0	0
3	1	19.8 (5.67D)
4	1	19.8 (5.67D)
5	2	39.7 (11.33D)
6	2	39.7 (11.33D)
7	3	59.5 (17D)
8	3	59.5 (17D)
9	4	79.3 (22.6D)
10	4	79.3 (22.6D)
11	5	99.1 (28.33D)
12	5	99.1 (28.33D)

The average is 54.8 damage and a near 100% chance of at least one hit. The average damage is about 2.5x the hit points of an average traveller character and the defender would need defensive DMS of -4 or better from cover or evasion for the average outcome to be less than a 1-shot kill. The effective range for a Gauss rifle under the Striker RAW is 600m. The stats for book 1/4 are just as bad if not worse.

I'm not making any arguments about in-game concepts or who might use what weapons in what context. This is purely a critique of the mechanics taken from the POV of a typical campaign based around a bunch of yobs in a scout ship. There are significant balance issues in the RAW and I don't see that the argument you've put forward refutes this.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Gauss rifles are meant to fight combat armour and battle dress:

ACRs are meant to fight cloth-type armour:

Are you trying to argue that gauss rifles are not overpowered because they're intended to be used against armoured targets?

Yes.

As I tried to point out the Gauss rifle is used on the battlefield together with and against combat armour and battle dress.

The ACR is used together with and against CES.

Evaluating a TL-12 Gauss rifle based on its performance against TL-6 cloth armour isn't relevant.

So the relevant comparison is an ACR vs. CES compared with a Gauss rifle vs. Combat Armour. I haven't bothered doing the calculations.

I did similar calculations for the humble auto-rifle and promptly abandoned the LBB2 combat system as unworkable.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Sorry, I missed the most important part of your post.

I'm not making any arguments about in-game concepts or who might use what weapons in what context. This is purely a critique of the mechanics taken from the POV of a typical campaign based around a bunch of yobs in a scout ship. There are significant balance issues in the RAW and I don't see that the argument you've put forward refutes this.

I quite agree, but that is already true for an auto-rifle, or basically any other automatic weapon.

That is why I abandoned the LBB2 system and used Striker instead.

 

[nobby-w]

[ . . . ]
That is why I abandoned the LBB2 system and used Striker instead.

Striker still has balance issues of this sort - the example above was from Striker. I used Striker for much the same reasons as you describe, but the Integration with Traveller RAW still need quite a bit of nerfing. Combinations like gauss rifles and cloth armour are much more typical of adventurers than (say) combat armour and I've seen loads of attacks doing 24, 30, 36D of damage without the player necessarily rolling outlandishly high. Even the humble shotgun is pretty frightening under Striker RAW, not to mention the autoshotgun.

In practice, I did a fair bit of nerfing to re-balance - trimming dex mods to +1, trimming autofire bonuses a bit, capping positive DMs on the personal wound table to half the weapon's penetration for armour piercing rounds, enhancing evasion and cover bonuses and so forth. I also added a richer set of rules for getting surprise and using tactics and recon skill to improve the effects of evasion, cover and initiative.

The resulting balance, although an improvement, is still pretty lethal. The ability to score multiple hits and wide variation in the possible damage makes even the lowliest of small arms a potential one-shot kill. One still has to be circumspect about what you equip antagonists with unless you want your party to spend a lot of time rolling new characters.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Striker still has balance issues of this sort - the example above was from Striker. I used Striker for much the same reasons as you describe, but the Integration with Traveller RAW still need quite a bit of nerfing.

I was quite liberal with cover and concealment DMs. I reckoned anyone standing around in the open in a firefight deserved whatever they got.

Keeping the fire out of effective range decreases lethality. If the players like gauss rifles too much engage them from extended range with lasers.

The occasional enemy with better combat armour (hence more or less immune to gauss rifles) can also make the players look for diversified weapons capabilities.

But, yes, combat tended to be quite dangerous, so was something to be avoided...

 

[Condottiere]

At default, gauss rifles are meant as solutions to what current personnel protective gear then available.

You could use cheaper darts to deal with anticipated unarmoured opposition, which includes the benefit of being lighter and smaller.

 

[whartung]

Why would anyone bother to use hi-tech gauss weapons to mow down unarmoured troops (or more likely civilians?) when low tech machine guns are much more effective?

Run what you brung.

As they say, "if you're expecting trouble, bring a rifle". Why would you not want the most effective tool available in a situation like this.

I just don't see folks saying "I don't expect THAT much trouble" to bring something less, when all things considered, it's ergonomically not that much different from the lesser rifles. It's not like deciding to take a common rifle vs a belt fed machine gun.

Plus there's simply manual of arms, familiarity, etc. Use what you know.

By this time, there are billions of GRs scattered hither and yon across the imperium. Unless the local infrastructure simply can't support them (magazines break, can't be recharged, ammo is only made on that ONE world that's the Imperial Armory), I'd expect to find them everywhere that has contact with Imperial travelers.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Run what you brung.

As they say, "if you're expecting trouble, bring a rifle". Why would you not want the most effective tool available in a situation like this.

Even easier to mount a MG on your vehicle.

A rifle is a good compromise, but only really optimal at medium range. Indoors you probably want a shorter weapon. In space you want a recoilless weapon.

Since a gauss rifle would be banned more or less anywhere with a measurable law level, you can't expect to be able to carry them outside of wilderness, or possibly the starport. A hunting rifle or shotgun is much more likely to be legal, if perhaps a bit conspicuous in startown...

An SMG is more convenient to carry, and a handgun much more convenient. A weapon you actually brought is much better than an inconvenient weapon you didn't bring.

If you really expect trouble you may want heavier weapons...

By this time, there are billions of GRs scattered hither and yon across the imperium. Unless the local infrastructure simply can't support them (magazines break, can't be recharged, ammo is only made on that ONE world that's the Imperial Armory), I'd expect to find them everywhere that has contact with Imperial travelers.

Agreed, there will be piles of surplus gauss rifles available, just as there will be piles of surplus laser rifles, ACRs, and assault rifles from lower tech worlds.

And Travellers will probably prefer gauss weapons since they are measurably (slightly) better. Unless they expect to use them in space.

But that also means that they and their enemies really will want to find some reasonable armour. Running around naked in a high-tech firefight is not advisable. I expect there will be reasonably armoured surplus high-tech vacc suits available from the same Imperial sources.

And when everyone has armour you haven't changed much except created a little bit of power inflation in the game.

But if the players insist on carrying gauss rifles everywhere they can, I wouldn't try to stop them, just make sure the opposition is also reasonably armed.

 

[CaptRet]

Even easier to mount a MG on your vehicle.

A rifle is a good compromise, but only really optimal at medium range. Indoors you probably want a shorter weapon. In space you want a recoilless weapon.

Since a gauss rifle would be banned more or less anywhere with a measurable law level, you can't expect to be able to carry them outside of wilderness, or possibly the starport. A hunting rifle or shotgun is much more likely to be legal, if perhaps a bit conspicuous in startown...

An SMG is more convenient to carry, and a handgun much more convenient. A weapon you actually brought is much better than an inconvenient weapon you didn't bring.

If you really expect trouble you may want heavier weapons...



Agreed, there will be piles of surplus gauss rifles available, just as there will be piles of surplus laser rifles, ACRs, and assault rifles from lower tech worlds.

And Travellers will probably prefer gauss weapons since they are measurably (slightly) better. Unless they expect to use them in space.

But that also means that they and their enemies really will want to find some reasonable armour. Running around naked in a high-tech firefight is not advisable. I expect there will be reasonably armoured surplus high-tech vacc suits available from the same Imperial sources.

And when everyone has armour you haven't changed much except created a little bit of power inflation in the game.

But if the players insist on carrying gauss rifles everywhere they can, I wouldn't try to stop them, just make sure the opposition is also reasonably armed.

The heavier vacc suit is a good way around armor restrictions and law levels - while combat armor is definitely military in nature and you could fall afoul of the local gendarmerie, even a boarding vacc suit is ultimately a vacc suit (just happens to have armor that puts it in the class of lower tech level combat armor). "This officer ? Why it's my vacc suit - very protective from radiation, don't you know." Of course, there will be many situations where a vacc suit would be inappropriate (can't really see one strolling down the high street in a highly popluated, strict law level metropolis). But out in boonies ...

 

[Skibdy]

In a game where there are catalogues of different guns and other Gucci stuff its no surprise that players will aspire to it. There are also 'heavy weapon' skills in the game so the whole set up is geared towards the 'idea' that there are these powerful weapons in the game.

Of course GM's will have an idea of where they want the game to go and will quite rightly want to control what the players have access to but a lot of that can be done by the law level and even 'convention'. Even if the law level allows you to walk around with Gauss rifles and combat armour, it could be frowned upon by society and players may be refused access to pretty much everywhere by owners etc. Let the players have their toys but they can only be used on 'special occasions' and the rest of the time they're not going to be any better armed and armoured than most other folk.