General Armor and Weapons As Mustering Out Benefits

[Chris Barlow]

Weapons and armour mustering out benefits

I agree with those that say limit players on both weapons and armour. Weapon wise the most damaging I let players have are gauss rifles and laser rifles. With armour I never let them have battle dress or combat armour. However if the players can make a persuasive argument, I will let them have vacc suits or hostile environment vacc suits as "armour".

 

[kilemall]

I agree with those that say limit players on both weapons and armour. Weapon wise the most damaging I let players have are gauss rifles and laser rifles. With armour I never let them have battle dress or combat armour. However if the players can make a persuasive argument, I will let them have vacc suits or hostile environment vacc suits as "armour".

IMTU I have Reflec as less a laser wavelength reflector and more a heat reflector. So it has applications in fire fighting, shipyard and damage control work.

 

[McPerth]

I agree with those that say limit players on both weapons and armour. Weapon wise the most damaging I let players have are gauss rifles and laser rifles. With armour I never let them have battle dress or combat armour. However if the players can make a persuasive argument, I will let them have vacc suits or hostile environment vacc suits as "armour".

Well, having tailored vacc suits as armour (in the versions where they exist, of course) has even some logic. After all, they are tailored...

 

[CaptRet]

I just replaced my MGT 1st ed with the 2nd ed, and that has an elegant solution to the Armor mustering-out benefits conundrum. Rather than allowing mustering-out characters to take just any armor (up to and including Combat Armor), the player is limited to an armor item up to Cr 10,000 and TL 12 - a second roll of Armor means either receiving a second item with the same limitations, or trading in the first award for an item costing up to Cr 25,000. Note that for those using the CSC, even TL 8 Vacc Suits cost 12,000.

 

[CaptRet]

With respect to weapons, the MGT 2nd ed likewise has a reasonable solution to weapons mustering-out benefits. The individual is limited to mustering-out weapons up to Cr 1,000 and TL 12. So the most advanced weapon you can take under that system is the ACR (or Snub pistol or Accelerator Rifle/Gyrojet Rifle). Anything more advanced (or more expensive - such as the Laser Carbine) you have to acquire yourself.

 

[CaptRet]

I just replaced my MGT 1st ed with the 2nd ed, and that has an elegant solution to the Armor mustering-out benefits conundrum. Rather than allowing mustering-out characters to take just any armor (up to and including Combat Armor), the player is limited to an armor item up to Cr 10,000 and TL 12 - a second roll of Armor means either receiving a second item with the same limitations, or trading in the first award for an item costing up to Cr 25,000. Note that for those using the CSC, even TL 8 Vacc Suits cost 12,000.

Interestingly, if you get two results of Armor as a Benefit, you can turn in the first set (value up to 10,000 credits and TL-12) for a TL-12 suit valued up to 25,000 credits. With the CSC, that allows for a Boarding Vacc Suit whose armor protection starts to approach that of Combat Armor (and give respectable Rads protection) - and I can just hear the explanation given to local law enforcement ("Armor ? It's not armor officer. It's my vacc suit.) Per the CSC, such suits are often used by merc units that can't afford combat armor.

 

[nobby-w]

I agree with those that say limit players on both weapons and armour. Weapon wise the most damaging I let players have are gauss rifles and laser rifles. With armour I never let them have battle dress or combat armour. However if the players can make a persuasive argument, I will let them have vacc suits or hostile environment vacc suits as "armour".

Bear in mind that under the Book1/Book4 rules a gauss rifle can do 16D damage with a 10 round burst and 40D with a panic fire attack (or 52D or 56D depending on how you interpret the rules), and gets the group hits from automatic fire rule. It also gets pretty good hit bonuses against all armour types. Under the CT RAW it's the most powerful small arm in the OTU by quite a considerable margin.

Also, by any reasonable interpretation of the material describing the OTU, as of 1105 it's likely been the most widely manufactured small arm in the Imperium, most of the Imperium's neighbours and nearby extra-Imperial space for the better part of a millenium.

It might not have the wow factor of a FGMP but it definitely has more dakka. In practice, the solution to the problem of super weapons is to nerf them a bit, rather than get into convolutions justifying why the party can't get hold of a weapon that should be as common in and about Imperial space as the AK is in 21st century Terra.

 

[CaptRet]

Bear in mind that under the Book1/Book4 rules a gauss rifle can do 16D damage with a 10 round burst and 40D with a panic fire attack (or 52D or 56D depending on how you interpret the rules), and gets the group hits from automatic fire rule. It also gets pretty good hit bonuses against all armour types. Under the CT RAW it's the most powerful small arm in the OTU by quite a considerable margin.

Also, by any reasonable interpretation of the material describing the OTU, as of 1105 it's likely been the most widely manufactured small arm in the Imperium, most of the Imperium's neighbours and nearby extra-Imperial space for the better part of a millenium.

It might not have the wow factor of a FGMP but it definitely has more dakka. In practice, the solution to the problem of super weapons is to nerf them a bit, rather than get into convolutions justifying why the party can't get hold of a weapon that should be as common in and about Imperial space as the AK is in 21st century Terra.

I think we are conflating the concept of what you can receive as a mustering-out Benefit with what a Traveller party conceivably could get their hands on via game play (e.g, using Streetwise to find an arms dealer who will sell you a military weapon, or a mini-adventure to find/steal a cache of them). The advantage of the mustering-out Benefit is that it costs the Traveller nothing (other than opportunity cost of not having received a different Benefit) and is immediately available to him/her at the outset of the game. I agree that the Arms Room Sergeant isn't going to let the Traveller leave with what would be cutting edge, or even standard issue, weapons and equipment. So the Traveller should be limited to the equivalent of military surplus, battlefield souvenirs, etc., and the Traveller should choose the most expensive and effective options available meeting that criteria (and no, organized western military forces - such as the US Army - don't allow you to keep and ship home as souvenirs automatic weapons taken/found on the battlefield). The AK-47 and its derivatives and M-16/M-4 family of weapons are ubiquitous among various military forces, revolutionaries and terrorists worldwide, but the fully automatic versions are not commonly obtainable in reasonably law-abiding societies. Even illicit users had to go through the process of acquiring them (CSC has a process and costs for purchases in various law level environments). So a good souvenir/private weapon for mustering-out could be the obsolete (except on some worlds) ACR, and the Gauss Rifle is what you perhaps could buy on a low law-level world (or through a shady arms dealer).

 

[nobby-w]

I think we are conflating the concept of what you can receive as a mustering-out Benefit with what a Traveller party conceivably could get their hands on via game play (e.g, using Streetwise to find an arms dealer who will sell you a military weapon, or a mini-adventure to find/steal a cache of them). [ . . . ]

This is exactly the wrong approach that people take to this. It's not really an issue about availability so much as an issue about why folks are toey about them in the first place. Gauss rifles may or may not be legal to own in any given world but as of the Published 1105 setting they've been in production for something like a milennium, if not back into pre-Cleon days of the Sylean Federation. They are going to be on the grey market in quantity. There are even legitimate arms dealership companies like Interstellarms that get a mention in the Traveller source material.

They could be illegal locally, perhaps requiring some work to obtain, but the Imperium itself has no policy on trafficking anything smaller than WMDs and has a policy of turning a blind eye to local brushfire wars. Just within the grey market within Spinward marches one would expect to see many millions of Imperial or extra-Imperial manufacture (Zhodani, Sword World, Darrian, Aslan, Vargr, independent extra-Imperial polities) from several frontier wars and hundreds or thousands of local conflicts over the past centuries.

Under the RAW it's mass-murder on a stick. How is this possibly not the weapon of choice for low-rent gangland drive-by shootings or the shenanigans of whatever makes up the local equivalent of the mob or cartels?

That's a rhetorical question - the answer is 'of course it is'. I don't have an issue with Gauss Rifles per se, but the CT and Striker RAW have them crazy overpowered. The correct solution is not to make up contrived explanations about how parties at your table can't get hold of them because reasons. If you're going to do that they may as well not exist in the first place (which is also a legitimate approach, btw). The correct solution is to nerf them so they don't overbalance party-level fire combat scenarios. This is really a minor piece of house ruling to fix on a game that's famous for house ruling, and yet for some reason people seem unwilling to do it. I don't really understand why - maybe it's a canon thing.

 

[CaptRet]

This thread was originally about mustering-out benefits, not what is available overall in a campaign. I'm not adverse to Travellers obtaining in play higher-end military equipment (up to and including combat armor and battledress) if they go through the appropriate efforts (and law level risks) to acquire it (and, if necessary, explain to the authorities why they have it). Fully automatic AKs and M-16s are widely available now - but obtaining and shipping them from legitimate sources still requires end-user certificates. In Traveller parlance, that would mean you can show you are working for a government, or a recognized mercenary unit or private security service. Of course they are also available via illicit sources (some of that stock could well have been diverted from its intended end-user, some captured, stolen, etc.), but that should mean the equivalent of in-play efforts to find the dealer (easier on some worlds than others) or cache, robbing an armory, or taking it as spoil. It would be comparatively easy to find an automatic weapon (probably an AK variant) in the bazaars of Afghanistan, but not so easy in the cities of western Europe or the US (where the police authorities would take a jaundiced view if someone was so equipped).

 

[nobby-w]

I was in the British Army - they didn't give me the option of keeping my SLR, let alone the sterling smg and the browning 9mm they also trained me to use.[ . . . ]

There is some historical precedent for it; for example veterans were allowed to keep their rifles after the Civil War (a chain of events that led to the formation of the NRA), and up until WWI or so it was common practice in pretty much all armed forces for officers to buy their own service pistols, which they would often keep on leaving the service. Practices like this went on as late as WWII in some cases, although by then it mostly applied to captured weapons kept as souvenirs. In some cases (typically automatic weapons such as submachineguns) the weapon had to be deactivated, but even then there were cases where requirements were loose enough to get the weapons back in a form that could be re-activated. I remember reading somewhere about German SMGs kept as souvenirs by American veterans. They could be disabled by either milling the firing pin off the bolt or pouring concrete into the barrel. Folks used to combine parts from two guns into a single working one, and at one point these were quite common in the U.S.

The Merkins still run a scheme called the Civilian Marksmanship Programme where folks can buy surplus small arms, although that's subject to restrictions on what can be held legally as a civilian. On the British side, the authorities flogged off surplus .303's by the truckload after WWI, WWII and after the switch to 7.62 in 1957. Surplus SLRs just got flogged in New Zealand and Australia at least (not sure what the Poms did with theirs), as they were not fully automatic and therefore (at the time) legal to own without requiring anything more than an ordinary firearms licence. I've seen surplus Bren guns in a shop in Christchurch available for 400 kiwi pesos - you could keep it activated if you had a class C (collectors) licence. That was 1987, mind - they're a bit more uptight about that sort of thing now.

It's not hard to see this sort of thing going on in a society with a more militaristic culture, although perhaps requiring the weapon to be brought into compliance with local regulations, for example by disabling autofire capability.

 

[CaptRet]

After WW 2 the weapons that a GI could bring home were bolt action rifles (already obsolescent by 1942, and obsolete by the end of the war - made good deer rifles though), pistols (also available on civvy street), and deactivated automatic weapons (which, as you noted, conceivably could be made active by an enterprising gunsmith). From WW 1 onward we get a real difference between the capabilities of military and civilian weapons. The authorities did not countenance demobilized troopers having state-of-the-art military equipment (smgs, grenade launchers, automatic assault rifles such as the STG-44, etc.) - not that somewhere someone couldn't get his hands on it, but it would take some doing, deliberate contravention of the law and keeping it from police notice. So in Traveller terms, I see as plausible mustering-out benefits obsolete/obsolescent weapons, with "current" military equipment requiring in-game efforts to acquire (e.g. using Streetwise and Persuade), or enrolling in a recognized mercenary unit or security firm.

 

[RandyB]

After WW 2 the weapons that a GI could bring home were bolt action rifles (already obsolescent by 1942, and obsolete by the end of the war - made good deer rifles though), pistols (also available on civvy street), and deactivated automatic weapons (which, as you noted, conceivably could be made active by an enterprising gunsmith). From WW 1 onward we get a real difference between the capabilities of military and civilian weapons. The authorities did not countenance demobilized troopers having state-of-the-art military equipment (smgs, grenade launchers, automatic assault rifles such as the STG-44, etc.) - not that somewhere someone couldn't get his hands on it, but it would take some doing, deliberate contravention of the law and keeping it from police notice. So in Traveller terms, I see as plausible mustering-out benefits obsolete/obsolescent weapons, with "current" military equipment requiring in-game efforts to acquire (e.g. using Streetwise and Persuade), or enrolling in a recognized mercenary unit or security firm.

The Prohibition of automatic weapons ownership by civilians in the US was not made official until 1934. Prior to that date, for example, the famous Thompson submachinegun, aka "Tommy gun", was advertised for sale to civilians - and legally sold to them. In Classic Traveller terms, the 1934 act raised the Law Level in the US regarding firearms to 4. (Possibly "3 plus licensing and fees" if you want to get that detailed.)

 

[CaptRet]

The Prohibition of automatic weapons ownership by civilians in the US was not made official until 1934. Prior to that date, for example, the famous Thompson submachinegun, aka "Tommy gun", was advertised for sale to civilians - and legally sold to them. In Classic Traveller terms, the 1934 act raised the Law Level in the US regarding firearms to 4. (Possibly "3 plus licensing and fees" if you want to get that detailed.)

And it was the high incidence of violent criminal activity using automatic weapons such as Thompson smgs and BARs (e.g. Barrow gang, Machinegun Kelly, St. Valentine's Day massacre, etc. etc. etc.) that led FDR to ask for a "New Deal on Crime," leading to strict (prohibitive at the time) taxation, registration and licensing of automatic weapons in the US. The Act also regulated "short barrel rifles," "short barrel shotguns" (both categories essentially concealable weapons, have strict definitions), suppressors ("silencers"), and "destructive devices" (grenades, bombs, "explosive missiles," poison gas). Frankly, the police were often out-gunned by criminals with automatic weapons.

 

[RandyB]

And it was the high incidence of violent criminal activity using automatic weapons such as Thompson smgs and BARs (e.g. Barrow gang, Machinegun Kelly, St. Valentine's Day massacre, etc. etc. etc.) that led FDR to ask for a "New Deal on Crime," leading to strict (prohibitive at the time) taxation, registration and licensing of automatic weapons in the US. The Act also regulated "short barrel rifles," "short barrel shotguns" (both categories essentially concealable weapons, have strict definitions), suppressors ("silencers"), and "destructive devices" (grenades, bombs, "explosive missiles," poison gas). Frankly, the police were often out-gunned by criminals with automatic weapons.

Keeping it Traveller, it was a jump of 1-2 Law Levels regarding firearms in a single act of government. If you want to avoid "Yanks in Space" IYTU, understanding when and how the familiar norm came about reveals non-'Yanks" alternatives.

 

[CaptRet]

Keeping it Traveller, it was a jump of 1-2 Law Levels regarding firearms in a single act of government. If you want to avoid "Yanks in Space" IYTU, understanding when and how the familiar norm came about reveals non-'Yanks" alternatives.

There is the even more restrictive Australian model adopted in 1996, from Wikileaks article:

A person must have a firearm licence to possess or use a firearm. Licence holders must demonstrate a "genuine reason" (which does not include self-defence) for holding a firearm licence and must not be a "prohibited person". All firearms must be registered by serial number to the owner, who must also hold a firearms licence.
The National Firearm Agreement defines categories of firearms, with different levels of control for each, as follows:.

Category A
Rimfire rifles (not semi-automatic), shotguns (not pump-action or semi-automatic), air rifles including semi-automatic, and paintball guns.

Category B
Centrefire rifles including bolt action, pump action and lever action (not semi-automatic) and muzzleloading firearms made after 1 January 1901.

Category C
Pump-action or self-loading shotguns having a magazine capacity of 5 or fewer rounds and semi-automatic rimfire rifles up to 10 rounds. Primary producers, farm workers, firearm dealers, firearm safety officers, collectors and clay target shooters can own functional Category C firearms.

Category D
All self-loading centrefire rifles, pump-action or self-loading shotguns that have a magazine capacity of more than 5 rounds, semi-automatic rimfire rifles over 10 rounds, are restricted to government agencies, occupational shooters and primary producers.

Category H
Handguns including air pistols and deactivated handguns. This class is available to target shooters and certain security guards whose job requires possession of a firearm. To be eligible for a Category H firearm, a target shooter must serve a probationary period of 6 months using club handguns, after which they may apply for a permit. A minimum number of matches yearly to retain each category of handgun and be a paid-up member of an approved pistol club.[15] Target shooters are limited to handguns of .38 or 9mm calibre or less and magazines may hold a maximum of 10 rounds. Participants in certain "approved" pistol competitions may acquire handguns up to .45 calibre, currently Single Action Shooting and Metallic Silhouette. IPSC shooting is approved for 9mm/.38/.357 SIG, handguns that meet the IPSC rules, larger calibres such as .45 were approved for IPSC handgun shooting contests in Australia in 2014, however only in Victoria so far.[16] Barrels must be at least 100mm (3.94") long for revolvers, and 120mm (4.72") for semi-automatic pistols unless the pistols are clearly ISSF target pistols; magazines are restricted to 10 rounds.

Category R/E
Restricted weapons include military weapons such as machine guns, rocket launchers, full automatic self loading rifles, flame-throwers and anti-tank guns.

Certain antique firearms (generally muzzle loading black powder flintlock firearms manufactured before 1 January 1901) can in some states be legally held without a licence.[17] In other states they are subject to the same requirements as modern firearms.

 

[RandyB]

There is the even more restrictive Australian model adopted in 1996, from Wikileaks article:

A person must have a firearm licence to possess or use a firearm. Licence holders must demonstrate a "genuine reason" (which does not include self-defence) for holding a firearm licence and must not be a "prohibited person". All firearms must be registered by serial number to the owner, who must also hold a firearms licence.
The National Firearm Agreement defines categories of firearms, with different levels of control for each, as follows:.

Category A
Rimfire rifles (not semi-automatic), shotguns (not pump-action or semi-automatic), air rifles including semi-automatic, and paintball guns.

Category B
Centrefire rifles including bolt action, pump action and lever action (not semi-automatic) and muzzleloading firearms made after 1 January 1901.

Category C
Pump-action or self-loading shotguns having a magazine capacity of 5 or fewer rounds and semi-automatic rimfire rifles up to 10 rounds. Primary producers, farm workers, firearm dealers, firearm safety officers, collectors and clay target shooters can own functional Category C firearms.

Category D
All self-loading centrefire rifles, pump-action or self-loading shotguns that have a magazine capacity of more than 5 rounds, semi-automatic rimfire rifles over 10 rounds, are restricted to government agencies, occupational shooters and primary producers.

Category H
Handguns including air pistols and deactivated handguns. This class is available to target shooters and certain security guards whose job requires possession of a firearm. To be eligible for a Category H firearm, a target shooter must serve a probationary period of 6 months using club handguns, after which they may apply for a permit. A minimum number of matches yearly to retain each category of handgun and be a paid-up member of an approved pistol club.[15] Target shooters are limited to handguns of .38 or 9mm calibre or less and magazines may hold a maximum of 10 rounds. Participants in certain "approved" pistol competitions may acquire handguns up to .45 calibre, currently Single Action Shooting and Metallic Silhouette. IPSC shooting is approved for 9mm/.38/.357 SIG, handguns that meet the IPSC rules, larger calibres such as .45 were approved for IPSC handgun shooting contests in Australia in 2014, however only in Victoria so far.[16] Barrels must be at least 100mm (3.94") long for revolvers, and 120mm (4.72") for semi-automatic pistols unless the pistols are clearly ISSF target pistols; magazines are restricted to 10 rounds.

Category R/E
Restricted weapons include military weapons such as machine guns, rocket launchers, full automatic self loading rifles, flame-throwers and anti-tank guns.

Certain antique firearms (generally muzzle loading black powder flintlock firearms manufactured before 1 January 1901) can in some states be legally held without a licence.[17] In other states they are subject to the same requirements as modern firearms.

And there are less restrictive models, represented in the UPP for worlds as lower Law Levels. Given that Traveller RAW has no laws restricting small arms ownership outside of planetary jurisdictions, it's the Referee's call - there is no automatic "it must be this way".

 

[nobby-w]

[ . . . ]
I see as plausible mustering-out benefits obsolete/obsolescent weapons, with "current" military equipment requiring in-game efforts to acquire (e.g. using Streetwise and Persuade), or enrolling in a recognized mercenary unit or security firm.

I went through a thought process like this at one point, but go back to gauss rifles as an example for a moment. Per a reasonable interpretation of the OTU, as of 1105 this has been the primary small arm of most high-tech armed forces for (in many cases) centuries. There might or might not be a ready supply of 'obsolete' weapons to hand out to random grunts mustering out.

I'm really not making making any representations about what you should let your party start with or have access to in a given campaign. Rather, I've endeavoured to deconstruct some of the underlying reasons that folks get hot under the collar about this in the first place. The high tech weapons in Book 4 are too powerful, to the extent of being an appreciable design flaw in the RAW.

There are no other sci-fi games where the fan base argues about this stuff to the same extent, or anywhere near. I've seen folks arguing about this for 30 years or more, and there's a simple fix: nerf the weapons so they're not disproportionately powerful. It's a minor piece of house-ruling, and *poof* now this is all a non-issue. Instead, we get endless wittering about what characters can or can't get access to IYTU because reasons.

 

[whartung]

I'm really not making making any representations about what you should let your party start with or have access to in a given campaign. Rather, I've endeavoured to deconstruct some of the underlying reasons that folks get hot under the collar about this in the first place. The high tech weapons in Book 4 are too powerful, to the extent of being an appreciable design flaw in the RAW.

Not sure how the Gauss Rifle is overpowered compared to any other automatic weapon in the game.

Is that simply because it does 4D damage vs 3D? 3D is "just right" compared to 4D?

Other than that, it's just a rifle. In 99% of the situations outside of the military a rifle might see some use, odds are the difference between 3D and 4D won't matter (the idea that the gauss rifle is going to "hurt more" than a high velocity .30 caliber bullet is pretty moot).

For hunting, having a lighter, effective rifle for large game is a great benefit. I mean, who doesn't like dragging a .300 Magnum over the hills and through the dales.

If the gauss rifle is ubiquitous for centuries in the military, it's going to be ubiquitous on the surplus market, in the aftermarket, in civilian hands (laws permitting).

I would love a personal Gauss Rifle, even it were just semi-automatic.

 

[nobby-w]

Not sure how the Gauss Rifle is overpowered compared to any other automatic weapon in the game.

Is that simply because it does 4D damage vs 3D? 3D is "just right" compared to 4D?
[ . . . ]

Discussed earlier in the thread, it's the 10 round burst with autofire bonuses where the 4D becomes 16D and gets access to the group hits rules. If you really want to minmax it, take a look at what it might do under the panic fire rules (40D, 52D or 56D depending on how you want to interpret the RAW).

Anyway, it's pretty trivial to nerf, maybe toning down the +4/+7 auto fire bonus and large burst sizes. You could make the damage 3D if you wanted, as well.

I used to use Striker (which was even worse for this, if anything) and handled it by toning down the autofire bonus and and dex mods, and introducing rules for armour piercing rounds that capped the positive bonus on the personal wound table.

I've seen many pointless arguments like the one in this thread, driven by the imbalance and folks unwilling to admit it, positing rather contrived arguments to justify their positions. In a game famous for house-ruling, this can be trivially house-ruled away to a non-issue by nerfing the excesses. If the munchkin wants his gauss rifle, let him have it but you can structure the game so he can have his agency without it being too hard to DM.

If you want to do starships-and-sixguns, you can stick to book 1. You can do a universe with higher ambient tech by frigging the rules so the high tech weapons balance.