Armor, weapon and materiel costs, and insurance.

[Murphy]

I am running a mercenary campaign, and my players have just recently ramped up their unit and re-outfitted it. It went from being a 8-man squad with TL10 gear to something like 18-man platoon with combat armor and gauss.

Took a lot of credits of course, here's the funny financial table:
Cr34,000 - New guns. It's 18 TL12 gauss rifles at Cr1,500 each, some ammo and grenades totalling Cr2,000, one laser rifle at Cr8,000 and two belt power packs at Cr3,500 each.
Cr60,000 - Salaries for NPC soldiers for two last months. Roughly Cr2,000/month per person, because "standard" Cr300 salaries for people risking their lives in the battlefield just don't make any sense to me.
Cr2,250,000 - 10-dton specialized G-Carrier.
Cr5,400,000 - TL12 Combat armor, 18 suits.

Pricing is from MgT, except the carrier (grav tech is less advanced IMTU so vehicle prices are different) and the salaries (roughly Cr2,000/month per person, because "standard" Cr300 salaries for people risking their lives in the battlefield just don't make any sense to me).

What puzzles me is the improbably high cost of combat armor compared to just about any TL12 gun. I can see the reason for it gameplay-wise, but I am not entirely comfortable with it. After all, a modern full body armor would hardly cost 100x as much as a firearm.

Tickets are also very oddly priced (at least the ones I've seen, even freight is more profitable than these). This is more easily remedied, though, not with extra cash but with something like the patron providing free insurance, repairs and legal permission to keep some of the captured equipment.

Would like to hear people's opinion.
Also, post YTU non-canon pricings

 

[far-trader]

Seems a bit light to be calling it a platoon. More like a section (half a platoon, two squads).

As for the combat armour expense I think it should be compared weapons wise to PGMP-12 which in CT was only half the cost of the armour (not including ammo/power). Not to gauss rifles and other lesser weapons. I'm a bit out of touch with the price of body armour RealLife but seem to recall it being significantly more than most regular weapons.

Speaking of the PGMP-12 though, it looks to me like the unit has forgotten to include a heavy weapons team or two. Exploit that

Combat Armour is going to last a long time and still be serviceable with little added expense imo. While weapons will require replacements and routine maintenance and operational expenses. Though the rules don't include such things as firing range use and time, wear and tear, firing range expendables, etc. etc. that drive the real cost of weapons up for an active unit.

Merc salaries and tickets always seemed about right to me, it was some other costs and salaries (notably trade and merchants) that I thought were out of whack and needed (easier fix imo) reducing... but whatever works for you I do agree some fixing is needed in that area imo.

 

[Murphy]

Wait a moment, are you saying armor will last longer than weapons? Are you serious?

Maybe I played too much Doom and Quake, but I was always under impression that armor is the thing that needs replacement often.

And what if there are casualties? Imagine the platoon (okay, section) is caught in an artillery fire and three soldiers perish. Will their armor still be serviceable? Because otherwise the unit just lost about 1MCr - the money spent to find, hire, train and equip them, and 90% of that is their combat armor! How many platoon-sized tickets are there that would cover 1MCr expenses?

I know, the obvious answer is "don't get caught in an artillery fire". Still, the point is valid unless they only take tickets to TL5-7 worlds... Although, as I said, if they are fighting on a TL11 world, they can probably replace lost gear from captured enemy stocks.

Now concerning PGMP-12. It is only KCr30-ish. The real big prices start at TL13-14, however the matching personal armor (battledress) cost also skyrockets to millions.

Also, isn't it odd that PGMP-12 requires battledress to fire, yet no battledress is avaliable at TL12? I guess it is fired from APC mounts or just by very strong troops?

 

[McPerth]

Merc salaries and tickets always seemed about right to me, it was some other costs and salaries (notably trade and merchants) that I thought were out of whack and needed (easier fix imo) reducing... but whatever works for you I do agree some fixing is needed in that area imo.

As I've seen it since CT LBB4 was released, the Cr 300 is what the soldier gets in cash, not the full cost for the unit master, as this same soldier must be lodged, fed and clothed (and all that at some decent standards if your unit is not to look like a mob).

Also, isn't it odd that PGMP-12 requires battledress to fire, yet no battledress is avaliable at TL12? I guess it is fired from APC mounts or just by very strong troops?

Also talking about CT, IIRC, PGMP 12 didn't require BD. that began with PGMP 13, quite more powerful.

As MGT, while FGMP require BD to avoid side effects by the radiation released, PGMP don't (though it an be handy, as they require quite strong users). The fact that only the strongest men can use it unhindered makes sense to me with a heavy support weapon.

I guess some kind of bipod/tripod may be used to reduce this prerrequisite (lowering the STR prerrequisite to 9-10, so to say). I know this is not in the rules, but I'd use as a house rule if I'd refereed MGT. Of course that will slow its deployement (more or less like a LMG).

Anyway, it would not be the first time I see those 'not yet existing prerrequisites' in MGT...
http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showpost.php?p=380380&postcount=1

 

[steventirey1985]

Central Supply Catalog, page 12 (for Mongoose Traveller) has rules for prototype stuff. Prototypes usually appear about 1 TL before the item comes into common use. Prototypes have the same stats as the normal item, but the first prototype created costs 2d6x5 what the normal item costs. But once that one is created, others can be made at normal cost.

Prototype Battledress exists at TL 12. And for the particle beams weapons, prototype triple turrets exist as early at TL 8. (Or, you could assume particle beam turrets don't appear until TL9, and at TL 8 the only weapon mounts for particle beams are barbettes and bays.)

At least as far as Mongoose Traveller is concerned, the TL listed for items is the first time they become widely available. Those items can and do exist before that TL, its just that they are rare or experimental versions.

 

[Murphy]

Found a thread at Mongoose forums that at the later pages sparks a combat armor/battledress price discussion:
http://forum.mongoosepublishing.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=35018

Yeah, the basic combat armor is KCr20 in CT and KCr200 in MgT. Seemed to settle on that MgT price is the black market price since the armor is not publicly avaliable. A point is also raised that a boarding vacc-suit is nearly just as good but 15x cheaper.

It seems I really should have put more thought into that instead of just going by the book. Not sure how to rectify the situation all while making sure my players don't feel cheated. Perhaps I just tell them of the problem and adjust the expenses retroactively.

 

[jshiggin]

I am running a mercenary campaign, and my players have just recently ramped up their unit and re-outfitted it. It went from being a 8-man squad with TL10 gear to something like 18-man platoon with combat armor and gauss.

Took a lot of credits of course, here's the funny financial table:
Cr34,000 - New guns. It's 18 TL12 gauss rifles at Cr1,500 each, some ammo and grenades totalling Cr2,000, one laser rifle at Cr8,000 and two belt power packs at Cr3,500 each.
Cr60,000 - Salaries for NPC soldiers for two last months. Roughly Cr2,000/month per person, because "standard" Cr300 salaries for people risking their lives in the battlefield just don't make any sense to me.
Cr2,250,000 - 10-dton specialized G-Carrier.
Cr5,400,000 - TL12 Combat armor, 18 suits.
.
.
.
Would like to hear people's opinion.
Also, post YTU non-canon pricings

Not enough consumables. Looks like you barely have enough ammo for a firefight, much less for training + days/weeks in the field.

Also, you're better off with CES than CA - you don't lose much survivability, but you have enough leftover coin for more men. A lot more men. A company is way more useful than a couple of squads...

 

[aramis]

Keep in mind: on a training day in basic back in 1987, we went through 180 rounds each for a morning of shooting. And another 180 rounds in the afternoon. A day of shooting milspec weapons can easily be 400-500 rounds per person per day. (While we were issued 3x30rd, we reloaded around 1000, and again after lunch, and again around 1430.)
Figure at least a 5-workday week for basic competence with the weapon... you'll need 2K rounds per person at those rates.

 

[McPerth]

Keep in mind: on a training day in basic back in 1987, we went through 180 rounds each for a morning of shooting. And another 180 rounds in the afternoon. A day of shooting milspec weapons can easily be 400-500 rounds per person per day. (While we were issued 3x30rd, we reloaded around 1000, and again after lunch, and again around 1430.)
Figure at least a 5-workday week for basic competence with the weapon... you'll need 2K rounds per person at those rates.

I guess energy weapons, recharging from any power source, will be a big saving in this way...

 

[jshiggin]

I guess energy weapons, recharging from any power source, will be a big saving in this way...

Savings on ammo will be wiped out by the upfront costs of the weapons + powerpacks. Remember, you need enough in the way of powerpacks so that each weapon can operate for a day and change without recharging.

Not like your enemy is going to give you a timeout when you need to recharge a powerpack.

Note that one laser rifle sans powerpacks costs enough to buy an ACR and about 20,000 rounds of ammo.

 

[BytePro]

Well, if one goes by internet sources - its 250,000 rounds per Iraq insurgent kill (vs 25,000 per kill in WWII).

Of course, I'm talking 'interent sources' here - so really, really fine grains of salt! I'd say such numbers obviously include training (and for all branches of the U.S. regardless of stationing) and may include stockpiling (the U.S. still has lots of munitions from prior wars). But one article quoted "What are you training for? To kill insurgents."...

 

[McPerth]

Note that one laser rifle sans powerpacks costs enough to buy an ACR and about 20,000 rounds of ammo.

That's just about 50 training days worth, according to Aramis figures...And while training you may assume you'll have time to reload your power packs.

As for myself, on my 6 weeks basic training i my military term (then compulsory in Spain), I fired a total of 12 shoots. As I did my term as Red Cross auxiliary, I didn't touch a weapon for the rest of my term, but many conscript soldiers, being in administrative posts, received little more weapons training in the year the term lasted. I guess training was taken a little (sic) less seriously in Spanish army then...

 

[aramis]

That's just about 50 training days worth, according to Aramis figures...And while training you may assume you'll have time to reload your power packs.

As for myself, on my 6 weeks basic training i my military term (then compulsory in Spain), I fired a total of 12 shoots. As I did my term as Red Cross auxiliary, I didn't touch a weapon for the rest of my term, but many conscript soldiers, being in administrative posts, received little more weapons training in the year the term lasted. I guess training was taken a little (sic) less seriously in Spanish army then...

US Army training standards boil down to the same maxim as the Marines, who use: "First and foremost a Marine; first and foremost a rifleman." I've known several REMF Army types who were concerned because they couldn't meet the standards at the range. The US Army takes it less seriously, but the maxim that every soldier is a rifleman is still the order of the day.

A buddy was in a medical unit. Rifle practice days were dreaded by the unit, but everyon put a couple hundred rounds downrange and (vaguely) on target.

 

[Omnivore]

One thing I note missing is any squad support weapons. I'd prefer RAM Auto-GL's over PGMP-12's but a couple of either type would greatly improve effectiveness. One laser rifle per section/platoon is fine since, not only can it fulfill the sniper role but also handy as a target designator for tac missiles.

 

[Murphy]

Heh heh. A company would indeed be more useful than a mere section, but it'll have to wait until they can afford a bigger ship instead of their old refitted Beowulf-class.

They're on a long ticket right now, meaning consumables are provided by the patron. They probably can even procure a grenade launcher or two for their next assignment if they remember to ask in advance.

Did a comparably easy commando mission in a mountainous region - preventing the enemy from evacuating a key industrial facility during a major offensive by the allied planetary army. Most of the enemy forces were away defending the lines so the main difficulty was making it through heavy anti-air defenses and performing insertion (yay for good pilot and TL advantage). Then they had to overcome some nasty security drones (no heavy weaponry bit them in the back, but EMP grenades helped), blow up all transport and withdraw before enemy could react.

I loosely based it on the air base assault mission from the game RTCW, where you had to steal an experimental plane. Made TL-appropriate changes of course. The team liked it.

 

[jshiggin]

Heh heh. A company would indeed be more useful than a mere section, but it'll have to wait until they can afford a bigger ship instead of their old refitted Beowulf-class.

Which highlights some of the problems with mercenaries in Traveller. It's expensive as all hell to move them any distance at all.

And takes a hell of a long time to boot. World X has an issue, needs to hire expert troops - they send someone offworld to look. If world X is a backwater (and it is, or they'd not need to hire offworld troops, they'd be able to buy the equipment and train their own men in advance), then they spend a couple of months just getting to where there might be people to hire.

And then another couple of months moving the mercs back home.

So, you need a specialist assault team, but won't have it for four or five months, and by then, you probably won't need it.

Or everything in your campaign conveniently happens one jump from where the players are right now....

Note that to a large extent, this problem is a side-effect of a two-dimensional universe. With a 3-D map, there are a lot more worlds within reasonable distances of any particular place....

 

[Murphy]

It all depends on how large is the demand for mercenary work.

I assume lots of ticket opportunities, which leads to lots of mercenary units around. Thus, if you are on a major travel route, there will probably be a few merc units avaliable locally at any time. If you are at a balkanized backwater (or border the Vargr Extents, or similarly troubled), some mercs will still visit on their own to check if a job is avaliable.

Small merc units would just travel randomly and take contracts. Bigger units should probably have a dedicated "market analyst" and thus know where to go next to maximize employment chances.

And if a merc is stuck for work, there are always long-term war zones (Efate and Feri come to mind immediately), although they are less appealing.

Edit:
With all that, merc units would still face the problem of bankruptcy. I did also up the profits so a well-trained unit could survive doing 1-2 successful tickets per year.