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Funny how I caught this. Page #2 of this entire thread. In the post when Bill is responding to Kafka, quoting from Rats & Cats. Those poor Koreans! Thanks for the laugh, Bill. :D


Mal,

Ooops! That's what I get for "cutting & pasting" from a .pdf!

I'll go back and fix it.


Regards,
Bill
 
I already covered that. Would you make the same sort of ruckus if told that an aquatic race can't walk on land? It's just something that they can't do. It's not about "removing options" or other such nonsense at all.


drh,

I know I said I'd step out, but this is just too egregious.

An aquatic race walking on land? Is that you analogy? It isn't as if Mongoose released a Walking supplement, then released an Aquatic Race supplement, and we all expected the Aquatic Race to be able to walk. After all, the word "aquatic" does not normally equate "walking". The word "Aslan" on the other hand doesn't automatically equate "non-psionic".

The Aslan are psionic, it's been an option for them since the beginning, and Mongoose has seen fit to remove that. It's that simple.

Now, Mongoose certainly has every right to remove it, they've their license after all, and we've every right to be disappointed.

Maybe I'm confusing you with someone else...

No, but you're forgetting you own question.

You asked "Why should someone new to Traveller actually care whether or not they can play psionic Aslan?" and I answered from the perspective of someone new to Traveller. That's all.

I certainly don't expect to agree with us, I also don't expect you to attempt to even try to understand our position, but I must insist that you remember what you've posted and attempt to remain consistent within your own posts. Okay?

Thank you.

You're welcome.


Regards,
Bill
 
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The psionics rule for Aslan stays, no matter how ravenous your sense of entitlement over our products. If anything, the criticism on this thread has given us all the more reason not to change it, and possibly to veer even further from established canon. :smirk:

Now, back to those Vagr... mmm, bigger antlers I think. :devil:
Well, for one thing, it's pronounced "Vargr" ... or is this another one of your canon changes? :smirk:
 
Now, I would like to know if anyone knows of a good reason for Mongoose to make this change. It's a more restricting change, with no good reason for it that I know of. If there isn't a good reason, then perhaps Mongoose should get rid of it, since it removes an option.

Core principle of game design: What you take out is often more important than what you put in.

Options are good. Unlimited options are not.
 
There's a fairly simple explanation as to why Aslan are born in a 1:3 male/female ratio.


Peter,

Ishmael has started a thread in the IMTU forum for this very discussion. We don't want ideas like the one you posted getting lost in the discussion here.

Would you mind cutting & pasting you post over there? Or would you allow someone else to do it?


Regards,
Bill
 
Core principle of game design: What you take out is often more important than what you put in. Options are good. Unlimited options are not.


Matt,

That's a new one. I also happen to agree with it.

As a game designer, what benefits to you see in removing psionics from the Aslan slate of options? I'm honestly asking this as a serious question. Do you feel it would make an alien character easier for players and GMs to handle? Sort of cutting like down on the workload during a session?

I've another serious question too, if you aren't too fed up with us yet. In this post Don McKinney admits that he, Robject, and Marc all missed the changes Mongoose made in the way bay weapons are handled. Will Mongoose stick with those changes despite the admission that they weren't actually approved? Or do you view this as an issue of errata? If so, will Mongoose change it when you publish another version of High Guard?

Finally, has Mongoose every considered an errata system similar to that at SJGames?

Thank you for your time.


Regards,
Bill
 
The psionics rule for Aslan stays, no matter how ravenous your sense of entitlement over our products. If anything, the criticism on this thread has given us all the more reason not to change it, and possibly to veer even further from established canon. :smirk:

Now, back to those Vagr... mmm, bigger antlers I think. :devil:

Fordy:

That's precisely the attitude that ticks off the grogs.
 
Fordy:

That's precisely the attitude that ticks off the grogs.

Really? They seem to spend most of their time ticked off for much less. Whether we try to accommodate everyone or no one, it seems to make little difference to the attitude of a certain few.

My post was, in the main, made in jest. We won't deliberately stray from canon unless we deem it necessary (or even preferable). As licencees, it's our call to do that. The only people we answer to are the licence holder and our customers, and they seem pretty happy with what we're doing.
 
My post was, in the main, made in jest. We won't deliberately stray from canon unless we deem it necessary (or even preferable). As licencees, it's our call to do that. The only people we answer to are the licence holder and our customers, and they seem pretty happy with what we're doing.

But we are giving serious thought to antlers. . .
 
That's a new one. I also happen to agree with it.

An old lesson learned at Games Workshop, of all places. . .

As a game designer, what benefits to you see in removing psionics from the Aslan slate of options? I'm honestly asking this as a serious question. Do you feel it would make an alien character easier for players and GMs to handle? Sort of cutting like down on the workload during a session?

That is certainly a factor. Aliens in Traveller are, well, alien. They are far more than humans dressed up in bodysuits, which brings an additional layer of complexity to playing them. So, for our first Alien Module, it makes a certain sense sense to skip over a part of the rules that many people consider optional anyway.

However, by far the greater part is the idea that if all major alien races have psionics to one degree or another, then that is an immensely boring situation. What makes them so special? However, if you have one psionic heavy race and one with little to none (with other in-between), then that creates some interesting dynamics.

It should also be pointed out that the statement in question within the Aslan book may not be the be all and end all. Think of the Alien Modules as (detailed) primers on the race - these are the established facts as the vast majority of people understand them. That doesn't mean surprises can't happen.

Will we feature psionic Aslan in a future book as a one of these rare surprises? We have no hard plans to do so, but it is possible - if we do, they will be portrayed as something very, very special, precisely because they go against the understood norm.

Remember our other take on the Traveller universe - it is a very, very, very big galaxy. Anything can happen.

For now (and the foreseeable future), we are simply addressing what is 'standard' and well understood.

Now, if I was the one writing the new Traveller OTU material (and you may judge it is better that I am not!), I would not be laying out everything as fact - you would be reading, say, xenobiologist reports on the various alien races, documents from scouting parties, etc, each giving their _opinion_ on what it is they are seeing. So, the xenobiologist may confidentely claim there are no Aslan psionics at all. But is he right?

Of course, with that method, you won't be able to trust anything you read, especially when two different people are telling you two different things, and both are clearly biased!

That is a very interesting way of approaching a setting, and we will adopt it somewhere along the line. Writing as 'God' is not always the best way of doing things. . .

I've another serious question too, if you aren't too fed up with us yet.

Heh :)

In this post Don McKinney admits that he, Robject, and Marc all missed the changes Mongoose made in the way bay weapons are handled. Will Mongoose stick with those changes despite the admission that they weren't actually approved? Or do you view this as an issue of errata? If so, will Mongoose change it when you publish another version of High Guard?

This questions goes to several different levels. None of them have overriding importance on the others (so don't latch on to just one answer!), but they are all valid.

1. They were approved. We have a piece of paper that says so. They may have been missed during the approval procedure but, to be frank, it was not big enough an issue for it to stand out.

2. High Guard is a good book. The are some practical (printing) problems to revising something that actually _works_.

3. The fact that it is different from what has gone before is, again, not a major issue. What is _vitally_ important is that our books have their own internal consistency. This goes further than bay weapons, and on to the various points raised about Aslan and, say, the exploration of the Trojan Reaches. Our main concern is being consistent, rather than maintaining consistency (if you see where I am going).

All that is not to say there will never be a High Guard II or High Guard Second Edition, which may introduce some other funky new things, revise bay weapons (that _is_ unlikely), and feature power points. It is not planned and not on the schedule, but it is a possibility we have already considered for the future, depending on the feedback we get.

Finally, has Mongoose every considered an errata system similar to that at SJGames?

We've looked at lots of different systems for every step of the book creation process. For example, since Psion we have had a new proofing process in play designed to hammer out the issues that arose specifically over the Traveller range. Seems to be working, as we have had few complaints from any book since :)

The absolute, critical component to handling errata is timing - you have to be quick about it.

I read on one forum the other day where someone was complaining that we had released errata for a book one week after it went on sale. Now, _that_ had me scratching my head - like it was a bad thing that we had reacted within days. The other possibility, of course, is that the poster believed that errata breeds over time, and that a book goes out error free, and it is our fault if problems occur in less than a year :)

We endeavour to fix problems, when they occur (and they will, for every publisher, let alone every gaming company), as quickly as possible. However, it should also be noted that not everything raised by readers is an error. Bay weapons, for example. Not an error, thus not requiring errata. You may want something different and, if we were able to write an RPG specifically for you, that is what you would have.

At the end of the day, we produce the games we want to play, in the fashion we want to play them. And that, I think, is about as honest as I can be about our approach.
 
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Matt,

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

However, if you have one psionic heavy race and one with little to none (with other in-between), then that creates some interesting dynamics.

Of course you do realize you had that dynamic already? Zhodani/Droyne as the psionic heavy races, Hivers as the little to none race, and everyone else including the Aslan as the in-betweens?

It's your license, so it's your call.

1. They were approved. We have a piece of paper that says so. They may have been missed during the approval procedure but, to be frank, it was not big enough an issue for it to stand out.

We'll have to disagree on that. I suppose it's my nuclear engineering background, but IMHO "missing" is not the same as "approving" and it doesn't matter one whit if the paperwork is properly signed if an error has been made.

As for it not being a big issue, that depends on whether you think invalidating 30+ years of ships designs is a big issue or not.

Of course, TNE partially invalidated 17 years of ship designs in 1994. ;)

All that is not to say there will never be a High Guard II or High Guard Second Edition...

A poor choice of words on my part. Instead of second "version" or "edition", I should have wrote second "printing". You'll eventually have to print more copies of MgT:HG and you'll be making certain corrections then, hence my question.

The absolute, critical component to handling errata is timing - you have to be quick about it.

You also have to be constantly looking for errata and that's the open secret behind the SJGames approach. Like you, they realize that you simply cannot find everything that needs to be found during writing, playtesting, or editing and still publish products in a timely fashion and at a reasonable price. There will be mistakes, mistakes must be admitted, mistakes must be corrected, and mistakes can be found at any time.

That's why their errata system is "open". You can submit an errata report and, after they investigate, the errata document for the product in question is updated. It could be a typo, missing numbers, or a sentence that cause confusion. It also doesn't matter when the errata is noticed. It could be days, months, or years after the initial publication and they'll still accept an errata report. This gives them thousands of "free" eyes working over long periods of time.

Of course, each report has to be investigated and each piece of reported errata may not become official errata, but the system is in place and - most importantly - SJGames admits mistakes occur, wants to hear about possible mistakes, investigates mistakes, and attempts to fix mistakes.

Their system is also independent of their fora. They don't want the "signal" of errata reports lost in the "noise" on the fora. There's a completely separate line of communication for errata, they publicize that fact in their FAQ and routinely on their boards. If a poster mentions errata in the thread and a mod notices, the poster is directed to the errata system.

I read on one forum the other day where someone was complaining that we had released errata for a book one week after it went on sale. Now, _that_ had me scratching my head - like it was a bad thing that we had reacted within days.

That has me shaking my head too. You identify and react to a problem that quickly and it's somehow a problem? Huh?

However, it should also be noted that not everything raised by readers is an error.

Very much agreed.

Bay weapons, for example. Not an error, thus not requiring errata.

We'll just have to disagree there. From my point of view, the approval process failed. It produced a "false positive" as it were. However, now that you've stated your position I do not expect Mongoose to correct the issue. It just means I won't be using your version of High Guard which isn't very much of an knock-on effect in the grand scheme of things.

At the end of the day, we produce the games we want to play, in the fashion we want to play them.

Not only in the fashion that you want to play them, but in the fashion that others do to.

And that, I think, is about as honest as I can be about our approach.

And I'd like to thank you for being honest. Trotting out rationalizations, either before or after the fact, only exacerbates the all too general perception that Mongoose does not really care.

Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions.


Regards,
Bill
 
Now, back to those Vagr... mmm, bigger antlers I think. :devil:
But we are giving serious thought to antlers. . .

I like moose antlers more than deer antlers. Bludgeoning attacks are generally underrepresented in alien species and the 'crunch' of bones and 'thud' of blunt force against wet meat makes for a memorable combat ambiance. :)
 
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Matt,

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions.

Great posts, Bill. Thanks for the "less heat, more open discussion" angle. I like it.

Matt said:
They were approved. We have a piece of paper that says so. They may have been missed during the approval procedure but, to be frank, it was not big enough an issue for it to stand out.

Bill said:
We'll have to disagree on that. I suppose it's my nuclear engineering background, but IMHO "missing" is not the same as "approving" and it doesn't matter one whit if the paperwork is properly signed if an error has been made.

As for it not being a big issue, that depends on whether you think invalidating 30+ years of ships designs is a big issue or not.

It's not a big issue at all, if you don't mind not being able to use those designs unless you translate them. T5 has the same challenge. The designs should be translated if you want to make full use of the new system.

Bill said:
[regarding SJG's errata system]
That's why their errata system is "open". You can submit an errata report and, after they investigate, the errata document for the product in question is updated. It could be a typo, missing numbers, or a sentence that cause confusion.

Sounds like a good system...
 
Of course you do realize you had that dynamic already? Zhodani/Droyne as the psionic heavy races, Hivers as the little to none race, and everyone else including the Aslan as the in-betweens?

The Hivers are. . different. . .

We'll have to disagree on that. I suppose it's my nuclear engineering background, but IMHO "missing" is not the same as "approving" and it doesn't matter one whit if the paperwork is properly signed if an error has been made.

However, you are presuming it would have been flagged and changed if it was picked up. For various reasons, I am not convinced that is the case.

As for it not being a big issue, that depends on whether you think invalidating 30+ years of ships designs is a big issue or not.

Honestly? It isn't. If we had put warp drives in them, _then_ there would have been a big issue.


Of course, TNE partially invalidated 17 years of ship designs in 1994.

And that is the point - unless we kept the same construction system, differences on one sort or another would be inevitable (we did, briefly, consider keeping CT's construction system, but ruled it out on several grounds - you'll want to know what, the biggest was complexity).

There were several sacred cows we drafted up before creating the ship construction system (indeed, we did this with most areas of the rules), that we would not change. The rest was fair game - and, whichever way you look at it, bay weapons were never going to be sacred cows.

A poor choice of words on my part. Instead of second "version" or "edition", I should have wrote second "printing". You'll eventually have to print more copies of MgT:HG and you'll be making certain corrections then, hence my question.

Ah, with you. No. They are not considered errors.

That's why their errata system is "open". You can submit an errata report and, after they investigate, the errata document for the product in question is updated. It could be a typo, missing numbers, or a sentence that cause confusion. It also doesn't matter when the errata is noticed. It could be days, months, or years after the initial publication and they'll still accept an errata report. This gives them thousands of "free" eyes working over long periods of time.

To be fair, we already have this - anyone can send us an email!

Not only in the fashion that you want to play them, but in the fashion that others do to.

Well, actually, no.

I'll clarify that.

If we have a hundred people writing in and telling us they want something a certain way, when I (say) have written it another, the chances are we'll change it. The biggest example of that was the way White Stars were handled in A Call to Arms - I still think the 1st edition stats are the best!

However, where we don't have this clarity (such as with, say, bay weapons :)), we have to go with our best feeling on the issue - basically, how we want to play the games at our office and at our homes.

Without wanting to sound too poncey about it, as artists, that is the way we have to work. If we start prodoucing games we _think_ other people want to see, rather than those _we_ really want to play, well, I think that is the start of a slippery slope.

Trotting out rationalizations, either before or after the fact, only exacerbates the all too general perception that Mongoose does not really care.

You have to understand that, sometimes, we really don't :) If someone comes on to a forum (any forum) and says that everyone at Mongoose is a tossface and that Matthew is the biggest one of them all, then no, we don't spend too much time worrying or caring about what they think.

However, you asked a few questions about games and how they are made - and that just happens to be my favourite subject :)

If someone comes on to a forum and asks genuine (not pointed) questions, I'll do my best to answer. If they come up with a point that they want changed in one of our games, and we like it, _and_ it is practical to do, the chances are it will be done. TBeard's OTU reference sheet is an example of that.

Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions.

You're welcome.
 
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That's why their errata system is "open". You can submit an errata report and, after they investigate, the errata document for the product in question is updated.

Anyone is free to start an errata thread on our forums. The one for Mercenary came in very handy when I was preparing the book for second printing.
 
On a side note, I actually like how MGT handles bay weapons (Well, mostly, enough that I'll go with it). After all, now I can install a bay on a 400 ton SDB... :devil:
 
On a side note, I actually like how MGT handles bay weapons (Well, mostly, enough that I'll go with it). After all, now I can install a bay on a 400 ton SDB... :devil:

Yea, I do like that. I like the idea of a small destroyer that can kick butt and take names. Makes a very deadly vessel in a fleet.
 
Anyone is free to start an errata thread on our forums.


MongooseFordy,

Let me repeat the part of my description of SJGames' system you seemed to have missed:

Their system is also independent of their fora. They don't want the "signal" of errata reports lost in the "noise" on the fora.

Errata reports are too important to be posted on your fora. They'll get lost in the "noise". People will respond to them, rebut them, elaborate on them, argue over them, attack them, defend them, and generally bury the intent the original poster's report under several dTons of commentary as the thread morphs onto new topics.

With a separate system, all your errata checkers receive are actual errata reports, all they need to deal with are errata reports. They can immediately begin to determine whether the report requires action or not. They needn't spend time separating wheat from chaff, signal from noise, or digging the original report out of a multi-page thread.


Regards,
Bill
 
Errata reports are too important to be posted on your fora. They'll get lost in the "noise". People will respond to them, rebut them, elaborate on them, argue over them, attack them, defend them, and generally bury the intent the original poster's report under several dTons of commentary as the thread morphs onto new topics.

Fair point. It's also the reason why the Mercenary thread on this site was of significantly less use during the revision.

We do, however, have a Rulesmasters section on the forum. Perhaps a facility on the site might be viable to post errata confidentially and to bypass the problems you've outlined.

I'll speak to the powers that be.
 
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