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Who ever said it was? Your point seems to be that changes to canon only matters to people who knows and cares about canon. What a surprise. What you don't seem able to grasp is the corollary: that changes to canon matters to people who knows and cares about canon. Guess into what category the people who are posting about it falls? I'll givde you a hint: They're not newcomers.

The point is, it's important to you. That doesn't necessarily mean it's actually important objectively. Some people obsess and argue about the color of the nacelles of the new starship Enterprise in the new star trek movie, that doesn't necessarily mean that it actually makes any difference to the majority of people who enjoy the film.

Bicker and debate among yourselves about it by all means, but don't expect Mongoose or anyone else to care. They're not aiming the game at people who are so entrenched in the older editions that they'll automatically criticize anything that they come up with because it's different in some obscure way that only they care about.


We're not. we're treating it like we'd like to avoid it happening again.

Dream on. It's changed over every edition that's been released and that's not going to stop.
 
Time to get back on topic, people.


Aramis,

Message received.

Sorry, drh, I won't be playing anymore. :(

Do swing by the IMTU Aslan thread though. It is rather interesting and, whether it or not it's your cup of tea, another viewpoint cannot do anything but help.


Regards,
Bill
 
<shrug> If you say so.

Personally, I am skeptical of strident "get a life" comments from folks who engage in the same behavior they condemn.

But that's just me.

Just as well I didn't make any strident "get a life" comments then.

Tell you what. Someone should make a poll on the Mongoose boards that asks the question "do you care if the Aslan have psionics or not". And make one here too. See what the difference is. I think that most people on the Mongoose boards wouldn't give a damn about it. I suspect that a majority of people here probably wouldn't either, but the only ones who care enough about it are the ones posting on this thread.
 
Sorry, drh, I won't be playing anymore. :(

My question to you was related directly to this topic (namely, the Aslan preview and the contents of it). I'm afraid that you're not going to weasel out of responding to me that easily. Unless of course you don't really have an answer to my question.
 
The point is, it's important to you. That doesn't necessarily mean it's actually important objectively. Some people obsess and argue about the color of the nacelles of the new starship Enterprise in the new star trek movie, that doesn't necessarily mean that it actually makes any difference to the majority of people who enjoy the film.

Bicker and debate among yourselves about it by all means, but don't expect Mongoose or anyone else to care. They're not aiming the game at people who are so entrenched in the older editions that they'll automatically criticize anything that they come up with because it's different in some obscure way that only they care about.

Now, you're missing something here. Just because you don't care doesn't mean that nearly everyone, or even most of everyone, doesn't either. This has nothing to do with "criticizing anything that they come up with because it's different in some obscure way that only they care about." Many things they have come up with have actually been *gasp* complimented by those complaining about this part. And how do you know that only we care about it?


Dream on. It's changed over every edition that's been released and that's not going to stop.[/quote]

And since it will happen no matter what, there is no point in trying to reduce how much it happens? So murder should be legal?
 
The point is, it's important to you.
Exactly. That's why I spend time writing about it.

That doesn't necessarily mean it's actually important objectively.
It's an imaginary universe. What objective standard do you propose to apply?

Some people obsess and argue about the color of the nacelles of the new starship Enterprise in the new star trek movie, that doesn't necessarily mean that it actually makes any difference to the majority of people who enjoy the film.
Of course not. It only makes a difference to the people that it makes a difference to. You seem to assume that it's the sort of issue that can be resolved by a show of hands. "How many cares? And how many don't care? The nays have it; no one cares..."

Bicker and debate among yourselves about it by all means, but don't expect Mongoose or anyone else to care. They're not aiming the game at people who are so entrenched in the older editions that they'll automatically criticize anything that they come up with because it's different in some obscure way that only they care about.
Why can't they aim the game at both groups? The people who don't care don't care what they get, so why not give them what the people who care wants?

Dream on. It's changed over every edition that's been released and that's not going to stop.
Not if everybody has your attitude, it won't.


Hans
 
sorry, but I've got to comment.

It's what the ref says!
I think its obvious to anyone by now that while I'll base things off of the otu, I certainly don't let it dictate how or what I play.
Frankly, if anyone lets a game supplement supplant their own imagination, then maybe they are playing the wrong game.

The otu does have its purpose..
It should stimulate the imagination, not straight-jacket it.

back to the topic.... while the preview has little that I , myself, might use... it does look to be good quality. There's not much else I can say about it.
 
drh,

With Aramis' suggestion in mind I was going to answer your question via a PM, but I decided, given your history of selective quoting, it would be better to answer it public. (Last post in this thread, Aramis, I promise.)

Without any further folderol, here are my answers to your questions:

Why should someone new to Traveller actually care whether or not they can play psionic aslan?

They would care if they were interested in both psionics and the Aslan. The option should be there, whether or not anyone actually uses said option.

Mongoose produced a Psion supplement for MgT before the Aslan supplement. Psionics are obviously part of the MgT setting and nothing in the Psion book says anything about limiting psionic usage in alien races, so a MgT player or GM would naturally expect the Aslan can use psionics until they bought the Alsan book. Now, if I'd bought Psion first, because as a player or GM I was interested in using psionics in whatever capacity in my games, I'd be disasppointed when MgT said I couldn't use psionics with the Aslan.

Of course, the quote from the preview doesn't mean I can't use psionics with the Aslan, I can still if I come up with my own rules. But why should I have to make my own rules? That's why I'm buying supplements after all, so I don't have to make up my own rules. Why not include the rules in the Aslan supplement and allow me the option to use or ignore them? If the rules were included I could still ignore them when playing the Aslan in a game without psionics, but without the rules I'm either forced to ignore psionics whether I want to or not or create my own rules. With the Aslan book, Mongoose removed an option the Psion supplement had presented and placed the work of restoring it on me as the GM.

Or that the Aslan arrived in the Trojan Reaches at a certain time?

I've actually less bothered with this than psionics. It's still nothing more than yet another example of shoddy research or no research, but it won't impact new players as much as removing the psionics option will. Psionics is a basic part of the setting while history is more along the lines of chrome. History only enters the picture when a GM begins to run out of his own ideas, or the time to flesh out his own ideas, and needs to begin supplementing his campaigns with published materials. It happened to me and I'm sure it happened to you also.

A GM who used MgT and it's history while crafting his campaign is going to run into trouble when he tries to incorporate previous materials that used Traveller history. The backstories won't fit in places and how easily he can use published materials all comes down to how well things fit together. There's already enough goofs, gaffes, and whoppers to deal with, so adding more really doesn't help the situation.

Again, this is a minor detail but adding to the work a GM is forced to do isn't really helping.

Obviously it's important to you that they do, but why should it be important to someone who's never bought into Traveller before and who doesn't know anything about the OTU?

As I wrote above, Mongoose released Psion first so someone who is new to Traveller would have every expectation of using that supplement with the Aslan supplement. When they see they can't use psionics with the Aslan without making their own rules, they'll be mildly disappointed. They'll either not use psionics with the Aslan or buckle down to create their own rules.

However, after they play Traveller for a period of time and begin to use previously published materials to supplement their campaigns, they'll learn that the Aslan are psionic in every previous version and they'll ask - just as we are asking now - why Mongoose chose to remove that option from MgT.

I don't think they'll be satisifed with Mongoose's explanation either.

And those are my answers.


Regards,
Bill
 
My question to you was related directly to this topic (namely, the Aslan preview and the contents of it). I'm afraid that you're not going to weasel out of responding to me that easily. Unless of course you don't really have an answer to my question.
That's inappropriate. Bill was responding to a direct request from a moderator. And whatever else you want to say about him, I have never associated "weaseling" with anything I have ever read from him on this board. He also invited you to join him on the other active Aslan thread on this board (which spawned from this one), even though you've already stated that you don't care enough about this topic to join in over there.

But if you don't care so much, then why do you keep egging him on? Do you go out in the woods and poke bears for fun, too?

Tell you what. Someone should make a poll on the Mongoose boards that asks the question "do you care if the Aslan have psionics or not". And make one here too. See what the difference is. I think that most people on the Mongoose boards wouldn't give a damn about it. I suspect that a majority of people here probably wouldn't either, but the only ones who care enough about it are the ones posting on this thread.
But that's what this thread is all about. Mongoose dropped by with a preview of their Aslan/Outrim Void supplement, and submitted it to the people on this board for review. Or at least if it wasn't for us to review, then I have frankly no idea why they went out of their way to let us know about it.

The very first issue that was brought up was the matter of psionics in Aslan. And of course there have been other things, too; I agree with Hans that what Mongoose has shown us of their interpretation of the early history of Trojan Reach is just plain wacky.

And Aramis wasn't trying to be all mean and grognardy when he mentioned the psionics thing; he was simply providing them with a little free, open source, fact-checking. You know ... being helpful. In fact, that's what a lot of this thread is all about: free, open source fact-checking. Very little of it is vitriolic at all, especially to anyone who claims to be in publishing for a living. Both my grandfathers were in the biz; and anything short of a crowbar to the head was considered polite debate among the people they worked with.
 
That's inappropriate. Bill was responding to a direct request from a moderator.

I don't think Aramis' post was aimed at him. Or me. As far as I could see we were both on topic. If it was aimed at us then he should have been much more specific about it.


But if you don't care so much, then why do you keep egging him on? Do you go out in the woods and poke bears for fun, too?

Because he seems very keen to demand answers from people (as a condition for answering questions that they ask, at that), yet when asked to specifically answer a question from someone else he just backs off under the proverbial skirt of a moderator? No. Sorry, but if he makes such demands for answers from others then I think it's perfectly fair to demand answers from him too. But as it is he had the decency to answer later, so that's fine.


But that's what this thread is all about. Mongoose dropped by with a preview of their Aslan/Outrim Void supplement, and submitted it to the people on this board for review. Or at least if it wasn't for us to review, then I have frankly no idea why they went out of their way to let us know about it.

Just to let you know that there was a preview of what was in store? The people who review it are on the playtest, not out here.
 
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They would care if they were interested in both psionics and the Aslan. The option should be there, whether or not anyone actually uses said option.

I already covered that. Would you make the same sort of ruckus if told that an aquatic race can't walk on land? It's just something that they can't do. It's not about "removing options" or other such nonsense at all.

Mongoose produced a Psion supplement for MgT before the Aslan supplement. Psionics are obviously part of the MgT setting and nothing in the Psion book says anything about limiting psionic usage in alien races, so a MgT player or GM would naturally expect the Aslan can use psionics until they bought the Alsan book.

Psion is not an OTU book, and does not cover the OTU exclusively. I don't have it myself, are any OTU races even mentioned in the Psion book at all? There is no "MgT setting" either - all those black covered-books are generic SF books for use in any/all settings that use the Mongoose Traveller rules.


Of course, the quote from the preview doesn't mean I can't use psionics with the Aslan, I can still if I come up with my own rules. But why should I have to make my own rules? That's why I'm buying supplements after all, so I don't have to make up my own rules.

Maybe I'm confusing you with someone else, but didn't you once spend a lot of time going on about how it was so great back in the good old days when not everything was explained in the rulebooks and you had to make your own rules for things and use your imagination and creativity, and how much better that was than being spoonfed rules for every occasion? If so, you seem to have changed your tack dramatically now.


A GM who used MgT and it's history while crafting his campaign is going to run into trouble when he tries to incorporate previous materials that used Traveller history.

Unless he doesn't do that at all. Seriously, how many people actually use books from previous editions (possibly many generations back) in their current games using the current generation of rules? Especially when they have been superseded with a new version of that book? Would you use the old CT High Guard with the MGT rules given that MGT already has its own High Guard that is actually designed to be fully compatible with it?

You nailed the problem on the head. The problem is people are trying to use older material with new material and expecting it to be compatible when it isn't and has no obligation to be either. Stop doing that, and the problem goes away.



As I wrote above, Mongoose released Psion first so someone who is new to Traveller would have every expectation of using that supplement with the Aslan supplement.

I sure don't. I don't expect to be able to use every black book that Mongoose releases in the OTU setting at all. But maybe that's because I understand how they're releasing the books and what purpose they're for better than you do.


However, after they play Traveller for a period of time and begin to use previously published materials to supplement their campaigns, they'll learn that the Aslan are psionic in every previous version and they'll ask - just as we are asking now - why Mongoose chose to remove that option from MgT.

Again, you're assuming that they would look at previous versions. I don't think that's a given at all.


I don't think they'll be satisifed with Mongoose's explanation either.

I think they'll just shrug and not care myself.


And those are my answers.

Thank you.
 
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DrH:

The use of previous editions materials has been fairly common when those editions are convertible or compatible, as was the case with:
  • AD&D1->AD&D2
  • RQ1-3 and MRQ
  • Star Wars RPG by WEG in essentially 3 major editions
  • SW RPG by WoTC where 2nd was compatible with 1st
  • MSH vs AMSH
  • editions 2-5 of Chivalry and Sorcery
  • editions 2-5 of Talislanta
  • Editions 1-5 of Hero System
  • Editions 1-4 of GURPS
  • Editions 1-4 of L5R, plus D&D3 Oriental Adventures
  • editions 1 and 2 of Justifiers
  • Editions 1 and 2 of Albedo
  • Editions 1, 1R, and 2 of Palladium FRP
  • various editions of Robotech RPG
  • 1st and second edtion RIFTS
  • Mechanoid Invasion vs The Mechanoids vs Rifts: Mechanoids
  • Most versions of Traveller
  • FASA STRPG, Prime Directive, GURPS Prime Directive, LUG-Trek, and Decipher Trek (and these are not even mechanically related)
I could go on, but I believe the point was made.

It isn't that uncommon to mine earlier editions and even earlier licensed games for material.
 
I could go on, but I believe the point was made.

What point? You just listed a lot of games that have earlier editions, you haven't demonstrated that the older editions are actively "mined" today. How many people do you think are playing D&D 4e and also using D&D 1e products? The problem only exists if you assume that people are actively converting from directly the old edition to new.

And more to the point, how many people do you think would use MgT's Aslan book and a previous edition's Aslan book at the same time too? I don't think anyone would - why would they? If all the info they need for their current edition is in the current supplement for it, why would they bother to look at what an older book said? Would you use a D&D 2e book about Elves with D&D 4e? Would you even expect it to be compatible? I really doubt that you would.
 
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Of course not. It only makes a difference to the people that it makes a difference to. You seem to assume that it's the sort of issue that can be resolved by a show of hands. "How many cares? And how many don't care? The nays have it; no one cares..."

I would suspect that if enough people care to make a difference to Mongoose's sales then it's important enough for them to consider changing it in their favour. If not (as is the case here)... then it's most likely not important enough.

It seems to me that Mongoose want to make an accessible version of the OTU that isn't laden down with the 30 or more years of baggage associated with it. I would guess in part it's because they don't want to wade through tons of books from every publisher over the past few decades looking for obscure references that two or three people are going to scream about if they miss. In doing so they may decide to make some changes to it for whatever reasons they choose (or for no reason at all), just as every single Traveller publisher has before them. Even CT wasn't consistent in its own canon. So I think that demanding that Mongoose's OTU is consistent with every scrap of canon that came before it is extremely unreasonable. Particularly since people can't even agree on what is or isn't canon in the first place.

But ultimately, you are not Traveller's Thought Police, and Mongoose are not obliged to explain their decisions to you and neither are they obliged to care whether you approve of them or not. No publisher is, for that matter.
 
Is it? I thought it wasn't. Well, colour me wrong, then.

Yessir, DGP materials are canon, straight from MWM's mouth.

I believe the quote rang something to the effect that the DGP materials are canon but cannot be referenced by authors due to the copyright problems....which kinda makes them non-canon unless you already own the DGP stuff.

Now...this could change. He said this prior to MGT.

He could change his mind.
 
Do some quick searches online for the various games... you'll find people are mining them. Hell, Dark Heresy, we've been quoting stuff from WH40K RT and edition 40K 2-3-4 sourcebooks.

Every game I listed I have seen mutiple people mining old editions for canon elements. It's normal.
 
Every game I listed I have seen mutiple people mining old editions for canon elements. It's normal.

And if they do that, what do they give precedence to if they find a contradiction? The original material, or the later material that they're actually playing now?

Personally I'd discard the older material and use the newer material if there was a contradiction. That's how it usually works - new editions replace the old.
 
There's a fairly simple explanation as to why Aslan are born in a 1:3 male/female ratio.
[This theory has no canonical standing, but seems to make logical sense.]

Being male must be a recessive trait in Aslan. [1] Aslan, like humans, could have two genes that determine their gender. We'll call them F and m. An FF Aslan is female as is a Fm Aslan, and a mF Aslan. Only a mm Aslan is male.

One interesting twist - only a Fm or a mF Aslan will bear sons, a FF Aslan will never bear anything but daughters. Once genetic analysis can tell the difference what does this do to the relative mariage prospects of these three Aslan? Will FF Aslan find it harder to mary?
Will a FF Aslan who works for a corporation be more successful because she is more likely to produce daughters to carry on the corporations goals in the next generation?

Does a male Aslan really care if his land goes to his sons or to his daughters husbands after his death when in either case it will then pass on to his grandchildren? He does if you consider that his daughters husband will probably have multiple wives and it would be a waste (from a selfish gene point) of view) if the land eventually goes to the children of one of the other wives, who are not his grandchildren. Therefore we will see different marriage patterns on different planets and at different socioeconomic levels.

[1] I won't get into why this might be so, but in biology a 1:3 ratio strongly suggests a case of 2 genes one of which is recessive. When you consider recent research on the shrinking of the Y chromosome in earth animals and postulate that the same process could have happened on Lair, maybe the Aslan m chromosone is just too small and weak to be anything but a recessive gene. If so than you'd expect other higher animals from Lair to have the same sex ratio. Will this mean that a 'cow', especially a FF 'cow', from Lair is more valuable as livestock than a 'cow' from earth because it will have more daughters and fewer less valuable sons?
 
The psionics rule for Aslan stays, no matter how ravenous your sense of entitlement over our products. If anything, the criticism on this thread has given us all the more reason not to change it, and possibly to veer even further from established canon. :smirk:

Now, back to those Vagr... mmm, bigger antlers I think. :devil:
 
As an Asian ages, psionic strength deteriorates dramatically.

Psionically talented Asian must pay a higher psionic strength point cost to affect the minds of aliens. See the Asian Psionics Against Other Races table for the specific costs.

Funny how I caught this. Page #2 of this entire thread. In the post when Bill is responding to Kafka, quoting from Rats & Cats. Those poor Koreans!


Thanks for the laugh, Bill. :D
 
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