Aslan Preview

[rancke]

It is also worth pointing out, and we have said this before, that _all_ the alien races are going to be subject to scrutiny in terms of appearence. While we have no firm plans for a miniatures game based on Traveller, it is always a possibility, and the old designs used in the OTU simply would nto make for good miniatures.

The designs we are using have the possibility of being developed further into a healthy miniatures line.

So you feel that miniatures of lion-men would sell better than miniatures of real Aslans. You may be right.

Be that as it may, it's actually that item on my list of issues that I'm least concerned about. It's a pity I won't be able to use your illustrations of the Aslans to show to my players, but that's a minor problem. I actually included it mostly because I didn't think anyone would deny that the look of the Mongoose version of the Aslans had become more lion-like. I'm much more concerned with the historical and demographic issues. You know, the ones you haven't addressed?


Hans

 

[Supplement Four]

I am afraid that books marked as being part of the Third Imperium line (the OTU) _are_ canon, and will remain so for at least the next ten years.

You see lions, I see feline-like aliens. You picked the most subjective point to contend.

We wanted a more distinctive look, and consequently had a series of concept sketches drawn up to demonstrate where we wanted to go with it. Frankly, we preferred the more leonine style our concept artist came up with to the old look, and upon approval, that's what we went for.

Nobody can see the future, but I wonder what will happen. It's obvious more and more Traveller purists are ignoring Mongoose Traveller. It's also just as obvious that MGT is selling well to gamers who don't care about Traveller precedent or don't know it.

So, will two groups of Traveller enthusiasts continue to flourish? Not unlike the Star Trek universe and the Star Fleet Battles universe, both based on the same thing, but both with significant differences.

Will original Traveller fans die out, where only MGT is remembered?

Will MGT become a forgotten bump in the road, much like T4?

Only time will tell.

 

[mbrinkhues]

You have no idea how many thousands of Traveller books are being sold in Germany. . .

But I DO have a good idea how few games are offered/played on conventions and in some of the major regions. And I do know quite a few gamers who buy them for "having a complete set" or "checked and disliked"

Besides: Sales figures don't mean that a book is good. Otherwise I know a few that definitly need a reprint.

 

[mbrinkhues]

It is also comments like this that make these forums a thoroughly nasty place.

You mean I am "close enough for the field artillery?"

 

[drh]

IMHO, some of the points are valid, and haven't actually been addressed.

I disagree. The point that the Usual Suspects continue to miss is that this is what the OTU is going to be now. Again, it's down to people thinking that their opinions are somehow more important than Marc Miller's. And some of them have even declared that Marc Miller is "wrong" too because they disagree with his decisions.

What it really boils down to is that Mongoose are changing things with the OTU with Marc's blessing, and the handful of self-appointed "guardians of the OTU" who like to complain very loudly and spitefully about it here don't like that. And as usual, the moderators here let them do it, and drag this board down into the pits again.

Must we have to endure the usual abusive tirades from people like Whipsnade, Supplement 4, and mbrinkhues every time Mongoose release anything that does things differently from the way it was done before? If they're just going to be given carte blanche do to that for the next ten years then I'm pretty sure this board will just become their own private bitching ground because everyone else will have been driven off by it.

 

[drh]

Will original Traveller fans die out, where only MGT is remembered?

I for one fervently hope that they do. Or at least that they get the hint and stop complaining about it.

 

[Supplement Four]

It is also comments like this that make these forums a thoroughly nasty place.

Not necessarily nasty, Matt. It's a logical conclusion. MWM is allowing you to change a lot of things about Traveller, break a lot of canon. He either doesn't care about canon, thinks it needs an update, or is really just interested in $ being generated.

It's not an attack or a mean comment just to be mean. I think it's actually what the guy is thinking. He's looking at his beloved Traveller be withered away by people who are, in his view, not worthy, and he's wondering why the creator is allowing this to happen.

It's an easy step to conclude: for the bucks.

 

[Supplement Four]

Must we have to endure the usual abusive tirades from people like Whipsnade, Supplement 4, and mbrinkhues every time Mongoose release anything that does things differently from the way it was done before? If they're just going to be given carte blanche do to that for the next ten years then I'm pretty sure this board will just become their own private bitching ground because everyone else will have been driven off by it.

You, yourself, are proof that we're not "driving everyone off". You're still here (and welcome to voice your opinion, afaIc).

 

[mbrinkhues]

I disagree. The point that the Usual Suspects continue to miss is that this is what the OTU is going to be now. Again, it's down to people thinking that their opinions are somehow more important than Marc Miller's. And some of them have even declared that Marc Miller is "wrong" too because they disagree with his decisions.

What it really boils down to is that Mongoose are changing things with the OTU with Marc's blessing, and the handful of self-appointed "guardians of the OTU" who like to complain very loudly and spitefully about it here don't like that. And as usual, the moderators here let them do it, and drag this board down into the pits again.

Must we have to endure the usual abusive tirades from people like Whipsnade, Supplement 4, and mbrinkhues every time Mongoose release anything that does things differently from the way it was done before? If they're just going to be given carte blanche do to that for the next ten years then I'm pretty sure this board will just become their own private bitching ground because everyone else will have been driven off by it.

Yes you must. Simply because one IS allowed to ask the "WHY DID YOU DO IT" question here. Unlike on another board where such threads had and have a tendency to "get lost". So as long as you come here you have to live with people disagreeing with Mongoose view of Traveller and/or questioning Marc Millers decisions and motives. And one can say "I consider this a bad project because this and this change". Just because it has the "Marc Miller seal of approval" does NOT mean I have to like it nor does it mean I have to accept it.

It's called "having an opinion" and "voicing your opinion". How far the "freedom of speech" goes on this board is neither yours nor mine to decide.

Not agreeing with everything the "powers that be" declare "Truth, right and the holly writ", questioning what the "High and Mighty" tell you, that are actually good traits. When someone changes long established things "because he can" instead of giving/having solid reasons that's rarely a good thing. History is full of examples.

 

[Whipsnade]

+ The art is horrible. Sorry but this has as much to do with Aslans as Homo Erectus with modern man

Mike,

I feel that the art is fine as art. It's as good, if not better than, art found in other RPGs.

The unneeded changes (Psionics, Way the 2nd Empire died etc.)

There are those but we should should be expect them by now. Mongoose is going to change stuff either out of a desire to change stuff or shoddy research. Mongoose is also going to release an OTU document that should address most of the changes.

The diet stuff.

I disagree. I wrote that, if the dietary comments seen in the preview are further developed in the book, that they would be worth the price of the book alone.

Marc Miller might approve it. Guess he knows who writes his paycheck and as Berthold Brecht said "Erst kommt das Fressen, dann kommt die Moral".

There's approval and then there's vetting. However, the paycheck remark is uncalled for. The game is Marc Miller's property and he can do whatever he feels with it, just as we can ignore what he's doing.


Regards,
Bill

 

[mbrinkhues]

Sorry Bill I disagree.

The art has little to resemblance to the Aslan for me. As for the style, well that's a matter of opinion anyway and I don't like that either. So for me it's bad. OTOH some people obviously like Picasso while I wouldn't want one on my toilet. A Rembrand OTOH...

As for changes: Yes Mongoose will do them. But I will critizise them unless there is a good reason to make them. So far, none seen.

On the payment comment: I stand by that as well as my Brecht quote. Don't get me wrong, I'd do the same, moneys too important to let slip.

 

[Whipsnade]

Must we have to endure the usual abusive tirades from people like Whipsnade...

drh,

You'll have to endure them as much as we endure your mindless knee-jerk bitching.

So, my "abusive tirade"? Did you bother to read my initial post? Or did you just skim it and apply your preconceptions yet again?

Did you miss it when I wrote this about MgT addressing Aslan dietary concerns? "This alone may be worth the price of the book, IMHO."

Did you miss it when I wrote this about the preview as a whole? "Going by the preview and Mongoose's track record with Traveller so far - which is a bit like going by a movie preview and the director's track record - I'll go with a provisional rating of "Can Be Plundered" for MgT: Aslan."

Did you miss it when I wrote this about the art? "I've no trouble with the art as art. It's as good, if not better, than that found in other RPGs."

Or did you just not bother because the posts were written by me and therefore had to be just another "abusive tirade"?

I read an 8 page preview of Mongoose's new release, then produced three specific complaints and three specific compliments. I even stated, in BOLD, that the book would be worth buying.

You have all of 54 posts here and none of them contain any of the useful content you routinely bleat about. NONE. All you do is bitch, whine, mewl, and complain about this site, it's management, and it's regular posters while producing nothing of any worth. You want useful content? Produce some then. Put up or shut up, skippy, show us poor wretches how it's supposed to be done.

Here's another thought for you to chew on. If we're all just a mindless bunch of rabid MgT haters, why does Matt continue to post here? Is he a masochist? Or do we provide a different viewpoint, a viewpoint he may occasionally find useful, a viewpoint he cannot find among the gushing fanboys on the Mongoose boards?

In the end, your opinions are as welcome here as any others. They may even be more useful than most, if you ever get around to actually posting some that is. However, the opinions of others are equally welcome here too and you'll just have to learn how to live with that.


Bill

P.S. To The Mods: I know my warning is coming and I accept it. I also firmly stand behind everything I've written in this post.

 

[robject]

Will original Traveller fans die out, where only MGT is remembered?

Will MGT become a forgotten bump in the road, much like T4?

Non-issue. Eventually all original Traveller fans will die, and Marc Miller will go to his reward before many of us retire, but CT won't be forgotten anytime soon.

The same is true for GURPS Traveller, Mongoose Traveller, TNE, and MegaTraveller.

None of the above are bumps in the road.


Conclusion

The material is being vetted, but the result isn't the same as if Marc had written it. This is the way it has always been, and we'll always have to deal with it as best as we can. Discussion that clarifies the issues HELPS. Heat doesn't. We've got both here, so let's sift out the chaff.

Likely issues include psionics, and the history of the Trojan Reach.

It looks like a minimal change in the text can mitigate the psionics issue.

 

[Colin]

P.S. To The Mods: I know my warning is coming and I accept it. I also firmly stand behind everything I've written in this post.

<shrug> I got nothin'

Well, nuthin' much.

The "mindless kneejerk bitching" came on a little strong. Tone it down, if you please.

I don't view this post as abusive. In fact, compared to many Whipsnade missives, it is remarkably devoid of snark.

Bill has raised some valid criticisms, along with some valid praise.

However... There does seem to be a strong undercurrent here of hatred for MgT. Which is fine. Just don't beat it to death...

Valid criticism should be welcome. Just don't get abusive about it. And avoid the whrrrgrbl whenever possible.

And for the record, I view the "pay" comment earlier as abusive.

 

[Space Hamster]

Now I will precede this post with the disclaimer that I do not really care about the OTU. I purchase Travellar products for ideas to loot for my campaign. :devil:

You can choose what story line you wish to follow. All versions are different and this is a good thing. I would not want MgT to be the same as CT as there would be no point in having both. Different people will want different stuff. The different flavors offer GMs variety of choices. This is good. If you do not like a particular feature then do not use it. If you do not want to run anything that is not pure CT or other flavor then I recommend not buying anything else. Eventually MgT will be a past version of Travellar and a new version will be born. The new version will bring more changes in. Change is inevitable.

 

[aramis]

I am afraid that books marked as being part of the Third Imperium line (the OTU) _are_ canon, and will remain so for at least the next ten years.

Nine, Mattt. Nine years. You're a year in on your decade already.

And the illos and the text of the preview don't match about Aslan appearance.

 

[rancke]

The material is being vetted, but the result isn't the same as if Marc had written it. This is the way it has always been, and we'll always have to deal with it as best as we can. Discussion that clarifies the issues HELPS. Heat doesn't. We've got both here, so let's sift out the chaff.

Likely issues include psionics, and the history of the Trojan Reach.

It looks like a minimal change in the text can mitigate the psionics issue.

It seems to me that there are three possibilities here.

1) [Change] is a deliberate retcon and represents a choice between what used to be and what MGT wants it to be.

2) [Change] is a mistake, but TPTB at Mongoose do not want to admit that, so they insist that it's deliberate, and refuse to fix it.

3) [Change] is a mistake, and TPTB at Mongoose are willing to admit it and fix the error.

What I've been trying to find out is first of all if this or that change is a type 1 or not. If it is, well and good, I can like it or lump it, and I'm fine with that. After the explanation we got, the reimagining of the Aslan is obviously a Case 1, and that ends that discussion (As far as I'm concerned); I don't like the choice, but it certainly is Mongoose's choice to make it.

And who knows, if these are deliberate changes, if Mongoose would explain the reasoning behind the change maybe I'll even agree with them?

For any changes that are not not Case 1, I simply hope to be reassured that they're Case 3s and not Case 2s. So far I'm not feeling very reassured, but I'm still hoping.


Hans

 

[drh]

For any changes that are not not Case 1, I simply hope to be reassured that they're Case 3s and not Case 2s. So far I'm not feeling very reassured, but I'm still hoping.

Does it really matter? It's not like they are required to run any changes past you (or anyone else here) after all. Fact is, you can like it or lump it irrespective of the reasons why they were changed.

They made some changes, that's all that matters. This is now the way things are. It doesn't really matter to anybody else whether you (or anyone else here) approves of them or not, or if you (or anyone else here) approves of or even knows the reasons why they were changed. If you (or anyone else here) disagrees with them, then by all means ignore them and carry on playing your games the way you like to play them. But otherwise, unless you (or anyone else here) planning to write OTU material for Mongoose it really isn't that important.

That's why all this sound and fury here annoys me so much. It's not like Mongoose is holding a gun to your heads and saying "your games have to be run this way now". You have and always have had the option to ignore what anybody says for your own Traveller games, but instead some of you seem to take it upon yourselves to lecture Mongoose about how they're wrong or tell them what they should be doing to "fix" whatever "problem" you are perceiving.

 

[Whipsnade]

It seems to me that there are three possibilities here. 1) [Change] is a deliberate retcon and represents a choice between what used to be and what MGT wants it to be.

Hans,

I think that represents 99.99% of the changes we've seen.

2) [Change] is a mistake, but TPTB at Mongoose do not want to admit that, so they insist that it's deliberate, and refuse to fix it.

I don't believe that's been the case with any of the changes/mistakes because of...

3) [Change] is a mistake, and TPTB at Mongoose are willing to admit it and fix the error.

... that. We've already seen Mongoose admit to errors and take steps to fix those errors that can be corrected without releasing entirely new versions of book that have only been out for months if not weeks.

A Mongoose errata page with freely available downloads correcting the identified mistakes in all their products, much like the SJGames system, would be a very good idea.

The disconnect here is due to two different "values" for the term "approval". Roughly speaking, there is "Jot & Tittle" approval and "Broad Brushstroke" approval. We presume, and Mongoose certainly implies, that "Jot & Tittle" approval has been at work. However, when you take time to examine the situation, you'll quickly realize that "Jot & Tittle" approval is an impossibility.

Aside from having a personal life, which includes becoming a grandfather recently, Marc W. Miller has a real printing business and FFE and the T5 playtest and inquiries from the Hobby and several other things that can only be guessed at all vying for his limited time. Even if we cloned him several times, Mr. Miller still would not have the time "Jot & Tittle" approval requires.

"Jot & Tittle" approval is a lengthy process. It requires several read-throughs, several back-and-forths as the manuscript is passed between the writer, the publisher, and the "approver". Mr. Miller simply does not have the time for that process and, given Mongoose's fairly rapid release schedule for MgT, such a process at the "Jot & Tittle" level would be an 100 hour a week job. So, the approval process at work here is of the "Broad Brushstroke" variety.

There are many other indications of the "Broad Brushstroke" approval process being employed and the most recent has to do with bay weaponry.

Mongoose's version of High Guard handles bay weaponry in a much different manner than CT or MT. As you can read in this post to the Freedonian System Defense Boat thread by Don Mooney, he had tried to get Mr. Miller to sign off on a similar change to HG2 last summer and Mr. Miller turned the idea down. Then, only months later, MgT: High Guard introduces what is essentially the same idea Mr. Miller had vetoed.

The implication is rather clear. Unless you're willing to believe Mr. Miller is a hypocrite, and I am most certainly not, then the approval process being used with MgT is more of the "Broad Brushstroke" variety than the "Jot & Tittle" variety. It will do us well to remember this as more MgT products are released.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

Does it really matter?

Yes, it does. Deliberate changes is one thing, mistakes quite another. Mistakes happen. That's just inevitable when you're dealing with a shared universe the size of the OTU. It makes a great deal of difference if TPTB are willing to admit their mistakes and correct them, or not.

That's why all this sound and fury here annoys me so much. It's not like Mongoose is holding a gun to your heads and saying "your games have to be run this way now". You have and always have had the option to ignore what anybody says for your own Traveller games, but instead some of you seem to take it upon yourselves to lecture Mongoose about how they're wrong or tell them what they should be doing to "fix" whatever "problem" you are perceiving.

I think canon discrepancies are genuine problems, and I don't really care if you agree with me or not. The whole point of having a canon is to avoid, or at least reduce the number of, self-contradictions. Self-contradictions are bad for roleplaying. And if I can influence Mongoose to procuce material I can use, I benefit.Who are you to tell me I'm not entitled to try to do just that?

Also, when Matt shows himself willing to engage in debate, I'll do him the courtesy of assuming he's actually interested in debate.

If you don't agree with me, you're welcome to refrain from reading my posts. Or you can bitch and moan all you like, since I'm equally free to refrain from reading your posts. But don't for moment think your bitching and moaning is in any way morally superior to mine.


Hans