Aslan Preview

[Zparkz]

This is my point earlier in the thread. MGT is selling well to those who (A) Don't know Traveller well, or (B) don't care about Traveller canon.

The rest of us...do.

And we who do care one way or the other are outnumbered and out-aged.

I am probably repeating myself here as I mention that I first came into Traveller with the MT edition. I found it almost impossible to discuss Traveller matters without the CT stuff, and MT didn't get published well enough to cover the basics in many ways. To be honest with all the erratas and the neccessity to know the past canon the game was more or less unplayable. When TNE came out, it was pronanly the first time new-comers could write material for Traveller without having to worry about past canon.

Since T4, Traveller has been held alive by means of cpr (GT, T20, TML and this and other boards)

Now that Traveller is back with and finally getting a new fresh start. It apparently sells good, allthough I have hardly seen any books here in Norway. Not that I care, I don't like the present edition for many reasons, but I am glad there is still a Traveller around, and maybe one day I'll find a book that I can mine for material.

As I said previous, we have been out-aged. Deal with it and move on. The new Traveller belongs mainly to the new generation. However, I see many from the CT crowd liking the game. So they must be doing something right at least.

 

[Whipsnade]

I'm Don McKinney.

Don McKinney,

Mea culpa. I wrote in haste. You and Mr. Mooney have been confused before and will be confused in the future.

I also happen to be one of two people (Rob being the other) that help Marc review Mongoose materials. And (sigh...) all three of us totally missed the bay weapons thing.

Oh, that's rather interesting.

Among other things, it means MgT's treatment of bay weapons is a MISTAKE and not the APPROVED CHANGE Mongoose claims it to be. Every time we point out some change to canon, Mongoose's repeated explanation is "Marc Miller approves everything we publish".

We know have confirmation that the process is not what Mongoose would like us to believe. It's nice to know my "Broad Brushstrokes" theory is wholly accurate.

The bay weapon change MGT used just published a common house rule proposed many times.

And a common house rule Mr Miller explicitly vetoed when you suggested it less than a year ago. What was wrong for you is now right for Mongoose?

Matt's not perfect, and neither is Marc. Mistakes are going to happen.

I never thought they were perfect. I did think honest mistakes would be honestly admitted however and the blame not shifted onto an inflated approval process. The cover up is always worse than the original mistake.

Don't be part of making CotI the "anti-Mongoose" board.

COTI isn't an anti-Mongoose board. It isn't a gushing Mongoose fan boy board either.

Be part of fixing the mistakes...

If we're going to fix them, Mongoose has to ADMIT TO MAKING MISTAKES IN THE FIRST PLACE instead of falling back on their "Marc Approves Everything" excuse at every opportunity.

I'm sure that Matt would love to see some S&P Traveller articles from the Traveller "old guard".

I won't work for anyone earning a dollar from Traveller, including Mr. Miller. It's a personal decision of mine, has everything to do with my personal beliefs, and nothing else. Since the late 1970s I've turned down multiple playtest credits from better game firms than Mongoose and have even withdrawn from the T5 playtest for the same reason.

Mongoose needs help in fixing things? Then have Mongoose admit honest mistakes have been made and quit shifting the blame to some imaginary "Jot & Tittle" approval process. I've written before that an errata system similar to that at SJGames would receive a flood of suggestions genuinely submitted for the good of the game.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

I don't have my books close to hand. Does previous material explicitly forbid 2nd Imperium era colonisation efforts, or does it just not mention it?

It just doesn't mention it, of course. Just as it doesn't mention official RoM colonization efforts anywhere else 50 parsecs beyond their borders. My objection was that such efforts are 1) Highly implausible and 2) unnecessary, since there are other, canonical, sources of settlers (namely, unofficial 1st and 2nd Imperium settlers fleeing from the 1st and 2nd Imperium).

Here's the question I posed earlier in this thread:

"Did you have to mention official 2nd Imperium colonization efforts in an areas 50 parsecs beyond the border in Corridor? Especially since we have canonical statements about refugee expeditions settling in the Trojan Reach to provide all the settlers anyone could ever need? You did not. Was it a good idea? Not in my opinion."​

Colonization efforts cost money. For all of its 400 year history, the RoM was struggling to keep things together. Is it possible that someone decided to dedicate the funds to set up settlements 50 parsecs away? Of course. Is it plausible? Not in my opinion. Does it improve the setting in ways that couldn't have been accomplished by other, less implausible, means? Not in my opinion.

Can I come up with a scenario that has Emperor Arglebargle III order the establishment of an official RoM colony in the Trojan Reach? Sure. Do I think it's a good idea? No. But maybe the author had something specific in mind, something that justifies such a screaming implausibility. Or maybe he just didn't consider the logistical and political procedures involved in such an undertaking. If it's the first, well that's one thing. If it's the second, just maybe Mongoose would like to reconsider this tidbit of information. I won't know unless I ask, will I?


Hans

 

[rancke]

Leviathon, for one, mentions Egyrn Sector being settled at least on an ad hoc basis by Rule of Man colonists. I don't recall reading about any official colonization efforts, however; but then again, organizing anything on a grand scale was never one of the ROM's strong points.

My point exactly. Settlers fleeing the moribund Ziru Sirka, defeated Vilani fleets fleeing the fall of the 1st Imperium, settlers leaving the chaotic RoM, settlers fleeing the collapsing RoM -- all of these provide all the settlers you could possibly need to populate the Trojan Reach.


Hans

 

[MongooseMatt]

Also, when Matt shows himself willing to engage in debate, I'll do him the courtesy of assuming he's actually interested in debate.

Debate, not rudeness (I'm talking about others, not yourself).

 

[robject]

I won't work for anyone earning a dollar from Traveller, including Mr. Miller. [...]

Mongoose needs help in fixing things? Then have Mongoose admit honest mistakes have been made and quit shifting the blame to some imaginary "Jot & Tittle" approval process.

Bill! Breathe!

So do it for free, and do it for Traveller, and use the publisher as the vehicle. That's what I do.

Don's asking you to submit an article -- an ARTICLE, for goodness' sake. A hundred words... a thousand words... you've written a novel on COTI, and you've formulated arguments, crafted responses, and honed your points so that they're concise and plainly understandable. Publish them, on Mongoose's nickel.

Why do you have such a strong philosophy that you require this sort of incentive... and at the same time you're obviously very moved by concerns. Not moved enough to try, though? Is there a past experience so strong that all you can do is worry?

 

[MongooseMatt]

I wonder if he's doing it more to mitigate some of the damage that some people here seem intent on doing to any of Mongoose's efforts with their absuive complaints.

Not at all, I stated in another thread why I come here - I love talking about games.

to be honest I think it's a waste of his time trying to convince people on this board that he and his team aren't antichrists who have come to destroy all that they hold (literally) holy.

I disagree. We have already brought people 'on side', as it were. We even did it with one of the holy terrors you describe, by doing nothing more than fulfilling a simple request (I am sure there will be others!).

Others are fair in their views. There are reasons we don't do everything they seek, and it is not practical to fulfil their wish lists, but we understand where they are coming from, and they express themselves clearly (S4 is a good example, though by no means the only one). If we can easily implement any of their suggestions, you can be sure we will. May not happen overnight, but it certainly goes on 'the list.'

There are, perhaps just one or two, of those who have great difficuly expressing themselves without being insulting or just plain rude. While they remain in this category, we (and I, as a fan of Traveller myself!) have absolutely no interest in what they have to say, and no interest in bringing them to the fold - if that is how they talk about their games, we are probably better off without them. I am not talking about a set of Traveller veterans/grognards, but a tiny few individual people. I don't want to be insulted, I don't want to explain myself over and over again.

I really just want to talk about games, and these people ruin my enjoyment doing that.

For everyone else, fire away! As I said, if we can reasonably change things to better suit your expectations (slavish devotion to previous editions aside - it is _all_ up for reconsideration, in the very least), we will. If you want to see a particular book, let us know. More than one title in our catalogue has been the result of someone sayin gto me 'wouldn't it be a wizz-o-wizz idea if you did a book on. . .'

 

[Supplement Four]

I'm Don McKinney. I also happen to be one of two people (Rob being the other) that help Marc review Mongoose materials.

*raises hand*

I've got a question, then.

How can you, Don, and Rob, both old tyme Traveller grognards, sit there, look at this stuff, and nod your heads in agreement that Mongoose should publish what it does?

Doesn't your gut say, "This ain't Traveller?"

What did you do when you saw the pic of the Aslan, for example?

 

[Klaus]

It just doesn't mention it, of course. Just as it doesn't mention official RoM colonization efforts anywhere else 50 parsecs beyond their borders. My objection was that such efforts are 1) Highly implausible and 2) unnecessary, since there are other, canonical, sources of settlers (namely, unofficial 1st and 2nd Imperium settlers fleeing from the 1st and 2nd Imperium).

Here's the question I posed earlier in this thread:

"Did you have to mention official 2nd Imperium colonization efforts in an areas 50 parsecs beyond the border in Corridor? Especially since we have canonical statements about refugee expeditions settling in the Trojan Reach to provide all the settlers anyone could ever need? You did not. Was it a good idea? Not in my opinion."​

-snip-

Then this is another non-controversy. If the benchmark for what should be allowed is limited to only what has been previously mentioned before then that's a fossilised game, and thank the Lords of Thunder that Mongoose are not doing that.

Since the preview also states the 2I colonies failed it is also not contradicting any canon whatsoever. Just like the mention of Aslan psionics, which is fully compatible with the previous description trotted out earlier in the thread.

Once again, the canon puritanism is making asteroids out of flecks of paint. Most of these criticisms are so subjective as to be unintelligible to many of the rest of us.

Basically, Mongoose is being held to an impossible standard, in that they are expected to move the game forward while not 'messing with holy scripture'. It's becoming more and more apparent the 'antis' just want to suppress any creativity and ambition Mongoose may have for Traveller. There is patently nothing Mongoose can do to make folk with this PoV happy.

The biggest problem I have had with iterations of Traveller since CT, is that despite paying for more books I get half the same text, copied verbatim from previous editions. Mongoose haven't done that once, and that is a very good thing.

 

[ThunderChilde]

I really must be an odd fellow Traveller. I don't harbor ill thoughts, or really generally feel any need to criticise other versions of the game.

I don't understand why if you so massively preffer a previous ruleset, why you feel a need to bash a later version you so manifestly dislike.

We are all fellow Travellers here, why do we need so much strife?

Parallel examples
Palladium- My biggest beef with them was book inflation. Every new book had more capable classes, tougher and more dangerous equipment, yadda yadda yadda. Did I sit around and whine about it? No I did not. I did address it to a few staffers at a convention or two, politely I might add.

FASA- My 3 experiences with FASA staff at cons was unhelpful if not combative. For example, a friend and I asked the designer of Renegade Legion for a clarifiacation of a few unclear rules, what we got was bile along the lines of how dare we ask.

 

[rancke]

Then this is another non-controversy. If the benchmark for what should be allowed is limited to only what has been previously mentioned before then that's a fossilised game, and thank the Lords of Thunder that Mongoose are not doing that.

Since I explicitly addressed this in my post, I'm just going to say that you're misreading it and missing the point.


Hans

 

[Supplement Four]

I don't understand why if you so massively preffer a previous ruleset, why you feel a need to bash a later version you so manifestly dislike.

Simple disappointment.

Mongoose was hailed as "the next CT". With that came high expectations--an actual updating of the most popular version of Traveller ever.

And what we got was...MGT.

Not what was promised. Not what was expected. Not what was wanted.

 

[Whipsnade]

Just like the mention of Aslan psionics, which is fully compatible with the previous description trotted out earlier in the thread.

Klaus,

Fully compatible? Did you actually read the materials I quoted?

In CT and MT we're told that the seeming lack of Aslan psionics is more due to a lack of training facilities than any other cause. We're told how psionic potential in untested Aslan degrades faster than in other races and we're give a table listing specific strength point costs for Aslan psionic tasks. Psionic Aslan assassins are explicitly mentioned as are two Aslan clans who've integrated psionics into their culture.

In MgT we're told "Psionic ability is virtually unheard-of among the Aslan and there is some doubt as to whether or not the race is naturally psionic."

"Virtually unheard of" and "may not be naturally psionic" is not full compatible with a lack of psionic training institutes, specific psionic rules for Aslan characters, and explicit statements about Aslan psionic use.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Ishmael]

sigh........

Aslan social groupings and diet and tertiary sex ratios and gender roles make it clear that panthera leo was a strong inspiration. But to suggest delving deeper into such things instead of simply painting an entire race with simplistic lion-like characteristics cause wailing and gnashing of teeth " WAUGHHHHHH! They're not lions! "
Try looking at how lions really live beyond elementary school texts and see how it might affect Aslan culture...you might be surprised.

Aslan government, class hierarchy, cultural attitudes and some customs were obviously inspired by the Sengoku period of Japan. But to suggest delving deeper to see how they handled similar population pressures and what sort of historical events might occur, given similar circumstances instead of painting the entire race with simplistic characteristics was met with wailing and gnashing of teeth "WAUGHHHHHHH!! you're trying to make them more human!! "

The worst crime seems to be "WAUGHHH!! its not how the OTU has portrayed them in the past!"

The otu never dealt with the effects of their diet on their economy. I can demonstrate that it takes the same agricultural investment to feed 3 Aslan as it does to feed 40 vegetarian humans. Think how THAT would affect Aslan's population densities and trade and transportation infrastructure.

I'm still working on Aslan sex ratios and population ecologies. Lots of good stuff to be had here, but I'm almost to the point of "Why bother?"

but if you think whitewashing an alien race with gross stereotypical characteristics just to make them 'alien' instead of working out the deeper roots behind it all, then be my guest.

as for me, the level of discussion and obsessions in some people make this game seriously less enjoyable to me. I'm finding that I no longer care.
And that's sad.

 

[Klaus]

Since I explicitly addressed this in my post, I'm just going to say that you're misreading it and missing the point.

With all respect, I do not think so. I saw one possible interpretation of what was written. One that is no more valid than several other contradictory interpretations.

Mongoose have their own slant on what has come before. We can debate that, fine. But, once more, the furore is over Mongoose apparently riding roughshod over previous 'canon', when in fact all that's going on is that they are adding more elements to the grand back story.

Claiming Mongoose are contradicting previous canon here is patently untrue, and claiming such undermines the credibility of folk who may have their own legitimate misgivings about the direction Mongoose may be taking.

These 'canon' debates are becoming increasingly trivial, unfortunately.

 

[Klaus]

Klaus,

Fully compatible? Did you actually read the materials I quoted?

Yes, I did. The MGT spiel does not reveal as much, but it in no way makes the CT description obsolete. Still fully compatible. How well known about would a group of psionic assassins be if they were in any way not totally incompetent?

 

[Whipsnade]

The otu never dealt with the effects of their diet on their economy. I can demonstrate that it takes the same agricultural investment to feed 3 Aslan as it does to feed 40 vegetarian humans. Think how THAT would affect Aslan's population densities and trade and transportation infrastructure.

Ishmael,

Previous versions never explored those dietary issues and that's why I find MgT's mentioning of them in the preview so very exciting. There's a chance here to address what has been sadly overlooked for far too long.

If MgT only opens the door on the topic, that's still an improvement.

We can then hope that your project on the same topic will be complete the task.


Regards,
Bill

 

[rancke]

Claiming Mongoose are contradicting previous canon here is patently untrue, and claiming such undermines the credibility of folk who may have their own legitimate misgivings about the direction Mongoose may be taking.

The misinterpretation is that you think I claimed that Moongoose were explicitly contradicting previous canon here (i.e. in connection with RoM colonization projects in the Trojan Reach). What I said here was "My objection was that such efforts are 1) Highly implausible and 2) unnecessary, since there are other, canonical, sources of settlers (namely, unofficial 1st and 2nd Imperium settlers fleeing from the 1st and 2nd Imperium)." And I said it because you chose that example out of the half dozen I posted to question.


Hans

 

[Whipsnade]

Yes, I did. The MGT spiel does not reveal as much, but it in no way makes the CT description obsolete. Still fully compatible.

Klaus,

"Unheard of" and "may not be psionic" is somehow fully compatible with specific psionic rules and explicit canonical statements?

I think you and I may have different ideas of what the phrase "fully compatible" means.

How well known about would a group of psionic assassins be if they were in any way not totally incompetent?

In the same way all assassins are known; through their deeds.

Psionics in Traveller isn't some uber-powerful attribute resembling those found in Four Color Superheros. It gives it's adepts an edge, but it has it's costs and limitations. It's balanced in a meta-game sense, just strong enough to make it an interesting attribute and just weak enough to prevent it from taking over the entire setting.


Regards,
Bill

 

[Psion]

This is my point earlier in the thread. MGT is selling well to those who (A) Don't know Traveller well, or (B) don't care about Traveller canon.

The rest of us...do.

Hey S4.

I like MGT .
I know Traveller well.
I care about Traveller canon.

You do not speak for me.


There are still things I prefer about the way older editions did certain things. Generally, that's okay. It's not like my collection of classic stuff burst into flames.

I do agree some things about MGT have done that have the potential to make my game more difficult to run in the way I prefer. And I do hope as issues like the Aslan/Psionics things come forth, the writers can minimize such drifts in future products. If not, I'll deal with it.