Aslan Preview

[ThunderChilde]

Criticisms, Observations, and a Statement

If I needed another reason to dislike that MGT thingy, this book would deliver in spades.

+ The art is horrible. Sorry but this has as much to do with Aslans as Homo Erectus with modern man

+ The unneeded changes (Psionics, Way the 2nd Empire died etc.)

+ The diet stuff


Marc Miller might approve it. Guess he knows who writes his paycheck and as Berthold Brecht said "Erst kommt das Fressen, dann kommt die Moral"

Another reason to be happy that MGTs mostly a non-starter in Germany.

Why does this get your winkies in the wringer so badly? You don't like it, won't play it, and detest it's existance. The usual responce to this is to ignore it, you can't change it, and if you could, why would anyone else like your vision of what the OTU from what ever version is correct?

If it was a band, and you hated it's music, would you go trolling on thier fan boards? If you hated curry, would you protest outside a curry restaraunt? If you didn't like an authors writing, would you shout them down at a reading of thier work?

Why continue to rant over MGT? What purpose does it serve? To be honest, all you are doing is pissing in the pool. S4 atleast preaches to the CT faithfull, I have no idea what version you preffer.

For the record right up till the last couple of posts, Whipsnade had been well reasoned and reasonable. He got a little snippy with MongooseMatt, but you were out of line Dr.h.

P.S. It had gotten so peacable around here that I was reconsidering my decision not to renew my sponsorship. Now I remember why I made that decision in the first place. If I wanted this much drama, I'd go hang out with my neices and female cousins. I don't come to a TRAVELLER board for that.

 

[drh]

I think canon discrepancies are genuine problems, and I don't really care if you agree with me or not. The whole point of having a canon is to avoid, or at least reduce the number of, self-contradictions. Self-contradictions are bad for roleplaying.

The point you seem to be missing is that these aren't "self-contradictions" at all. Mongoose's OTU material does not contradict itself, it contradicts material from older versions of Traveller. If MGT is canon, then it stands to reason that canon has now been changed, and canon is now as described in MGT's products. Why is that so hard to accept?

And if I can influence Mongoose to procuce material I can use, I benefit.Who are you to tell me I'm not entitled to try to do just that?

If you really wanted to help, you'd do it on Mongoose's boards instead of doing it on another board owned by a comptetitor. Doing it here just indicates to me that your supposedly constructive motivations aren't as noble as you claim they are - it just indicates to me that you want to complain in an environment where you know you'll get support for your views.

Also, when Matt shows himself willing to engage in debate, I'll do him the courtesy of assuming he's actually interested in debate.

I wonder if he's doing it more to mitigate some of the damage that some people here seem intent on doing to any of Mongoose's efforts with their absuive complaints. He certainly doesn't have to come here, and to be honest I think it's a waste of his time trying to convince people on this board that he and his team aren't antichrists who have come to destroy all that they hold (literally) holy. I think it's been very clearly demonstrated that your predictions of doom and gloom for Traveller amount to nothing given the game's current resurgence in popularity, but I'm sure you'll all continue to predict the death of Traveller and proclaim the doom that Mongoose has wrought on it.

 

[ThunderChilde]

As to the actual preview, looks good enough to me. I have seen so many different depictions of Aslan, ranging from ape-like to lion-like. If you keep the whole "resembled a lion", theory and fluff, then the art looks fine to me.

Once again, for the record, I do not have any of the origanal books. I am running MGT, so I will almost certainly get the book. That said, my Aslan are Hani-fied anyway, but it isn't written in stone yet in my campaign.

The Art is fine, like the diet, the rest looks lootable to a large extent.

 

[aramis]

DRH: no one forces you to read these boards.

Fan opinion does matter. Far more than Matt wants to let on, too. Many of my traveller playing friends avoid the line because it doesn't respect the extant canon, making their collections incompatible.

It is fair to say that, for fandom purposes, Matt is way off base in his claims that Traveller is not the OTU/3I... most of the brand name recognition has been (and still is) focussed on the 3I.

If MGP had decided not to use the 3I, many Canonistas would be grumpy still, but far less grumpy than the supposed OTU supplements making changes that are both unexplained and defended by the company with "I am afraid that books marked as being part of the Third Imperium line (the OTU) _are_ canon, and will remain so for at least the next ten years." Especially when it was announced as a 10 year license a year ago. That kind of triumphalism seems aimed SOLELY at pissing off 3I fans of old. We want to know why the changes were made, and at what level they originated.

 

[Supplement Four]

Matt does impress me in actually participating here. He's a good guy. I like him (even though I don't like this one product).

He seems to participate more here than he does on the Mongoose boards.

His participation at all, I believe, is a very good thing.

 

[Whipsnade]

Matt does impress me in actually participating here. He's a good guy. I like him (even though I don't like this one product). He seems to participate more here than he does on the Mongoose boards. His participation at all, I believe, is a very good thing.

S4,

I strongly agree with all those statements.


Regards,
Bill

 

[drh]

DRH: no one forces you to read these boards.

No-one is forcing people here to read MGT either.

Fan opinion does matter. Far more than Matt wants to let on, too. Many of my traveller playing friends avoid the line because it doesn't respect the extant canon, making their collections incompatible.

So what if it does? Honestly, this is the same nonsensical argument that was trotted out when TNE came out - "wah, GDW destroyed the Imperium, I can't play my games anymore" - and it's as much bullshit now as it was then.

Frankly, your friends are doing the right thing if they are (irrationally) concerned about "invalidating their collections" - and they are quite right to "avoid the line" if that is how they feel. By doing so they're sparing themselves a lot of high blood pressure, and they're sparing others a lot of high blood pressure because everyone else doesn't have to put up with them ranting about how different it is all the time. They can carry on playing whatever version of the game they prefer, and everyone will be happy.

I don't think it really matters in the long run if those people don't get into MGT. I'm pretty certain that there are a lot more people out there who don't actually care at all about these canonical minutiae, or who actually would prefer to see all the previous baggage replaced by something else that is at least internally consistent and a lot simpler. The people who insist on starting world war three over the fact that some obscure canon factoid has been overlooked or changed are most certainly a minority.

It is fair to say that, for fandom purposes, Matt is way off base in his claims that Traveller is not the OTU/3I... most of the brand name recognition has been (and still is) focussed on the 3I.

He can say whatever he likes and he's right to say it, because he's the one that owns and has paid for the license from Marc, not you or anyone else here. He's not the problem, the problem is that part of the fandom that refuses to accept it. There's really not much else to say about that - Traveller simply isn't just the OTU anymore. Deal with it.

That kind of triumphalism seems aimed SOLELY at pissing off 3I fans of old. We want to know why the changes were made, and at what level they originated.

You have been told. Marc Miller approved the books. If he had complaints or issues about the changes then they wouldn't be in the books. And it's not "triumphalism", it's simply pointing out the facts. Fact is, Mongoose bought a 10-year license for the game (or nine years from now, whatever) and they're going to do whatever they decide is best with it in that time. You or anyone else here don't have to like it, but it's still going to happen either way and they most certainly do not require your permission or approval to do that.

 

[rancke]

The point you seem to be missing is that these aren't "self-contradictions" at all. Mongoose's OTU material does not contradict itself, it contradicts material from older versions of Traveller. If MGT is canon, then it stands to reason that canon has now been changed, and canon is now as described in MGT's products.

As far as I know, Marc Miller still says that CT, MT, TNE, and T4 are canon too (I'm a little fuzzy about T20 and GT). When MGT Aslan claims that the 2nd Imperium mounted colonization efforts in the Trojan Reach, it's contradicting previous published information. Is that deliberate or accidental? If it's accidental -- and so far I've seen no indication that it isn't -- then Mongoose ought to be happy to be made aware of it, so that they can fix the mistake.

Why is that so hard to accept?

Because, deliberate or accident, Mongoose is messing up 30 years worth of accumulated setting. Granted, there are a lot of discrepancies in that setting, and any deliberate changes that aim at fixing those discrepancies have my full approval. Accidental changes, however, are simply a gigantic waste. What's the good of introducing new discrepancies accidentally?

If you really wanted to help, you'd do it on Mongoose's boards instead of doing it on another board owned by a comptetitor. Doing it here just indicates to me that your supposedly constructive motivations aren't as noble as you claim they are - it just indicates to me that you want to complain in an environment where you know you'll get support for your views.

The inferences you've drawn from my choice of where I spend my time discussing Traveller are wrong.

I wonder if he's doing it more to mitigate some of the damage that some people here seem intent on doing to any of Mongoose's efforts with their abusive complaints.

You've yet to demonstrate that the complaints are abusive. For all I know, Matt feels the same way you do and have exactly the motive you impute to him. But as long as it appears to me that he's honestly willing to discuss these issues, I'll continue to assume that appearances are not deceptive.

He certainly doesn't have to come here...

He certainly does not, and I for one welcome him.

and to be honest I think it's a waste of his time trying to convince people on this board that he and his team aren't antichrists who have come to destroy all that they hold (literally) holy.

I assume you're exaggerating for effect. It doesn't work. It probably is a waste of time trying to convince the grognards on this board that it's a good idea to change 30 years worth of accumulated material callously and gratuiously. Which, mind you, I'm not saying is what they're doing. I'm just saying that in the absence of straight answers to some of the questions we've been posing, it's beginning to more and more like that's what they're doing. But I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise.

I think it's been very clearly demonstrated that your predictions of doom and gloom for Traveller amount to nothing given the game's current resurgence in popularity, but I'm sure you'll all continue to predict the death of Traveller and proclaim the doom that Mongoose has wrought on it.

I can't continue doing something I've never done in the first place.


Hans

 

[drh]

As far as I know, Marc Miller still says that CT, MT, TNE, and T4 are canon too (I'm a little fuzzy about T20 and GT). When MGT Aslan claims that the 2nd Imperium mounted colonization efforts in the Trojan Reach, it's contradicting previous published information. Is that deliberate or accidental? If it's accidental -- and so far I've seen no indication that it isn't -- then Mongoose ought to be happy to be made aware of it, so that they can fix the mistake.

Given how contradictory canon has been previously (TNE even had completely different base technologies, and the Spinward Marches have changed practically each time they've been published), I don't really think these changes are any more important that what came before. Perhaps if you viewed each edition as its own self-contained canon, you'd be less perplexed?

I'm not sure why you appear to have so much trouble with this concept. It doesn't matter what canon was before, Mongoose are writing what it is now - if that interfere with your existing games then you can just ignore it or you can incorporate it. You're not writing an Imperial History book for Mongoose so why is it so important that every miniscule detail that Mongoose writes tallies with whatever came before?

The inferences you've drawn from my choice of where I spend my time discussing Traveller are wrong.

If they're wrong, why don't you go over to the official MGT boards and raise your concerns there? They're the ones writing the game after all, not QLI.

I'm just saying that in the absence of straight answers to some of the questions we've been posing, it's beginning to more and more like that's what they're doing. But I'm willing to be persuaded otherwise.

And I'm asking why it's so important in the first place that you get those answers. You already have what you want from previoius editions of the game - why insist that every subsequent edition has to be exactly the same?

 

[rancke]

Given how contradictory canon has been previously (TNE even had completely different base technologies, and the Spinward Marches have changed practically each time they've been published), I don't really think these changes are any more important that what came before. Perhaps if you viewed each edition as its own self-contained canon, you'd be less perplexed?

I'm not perplexed at all. I just think that the idea of considering material from each version as being about separate universes is an appallingly wasteful notion. I prefer to think of each version as a different roleplaying game about the same universe. Much more useful. Or at least potentially useful. I'm not sure why you appear to have so much trouble with this concept.

This, incidentally, was the approach we were told to take when writing and playtesting GT material, and it worked very well.

It doesn't matter what canon was before, Mongoose are writing what it is now - if that interfere with your existing games then you can just ignore it or you can incorporate it. You're not writing an Imperial History book for Mongoose so why is it so important that every miniscule detail that Mongoose writes tallies with whatever came before?

No, but I may be writing for Mongoose's successor :devil:. Seriously, I've explained why in detail elsewhere. I don't feel like justifying myself over and over again. Just accept that it does matter to me. As I'm not the only one, you might do worse than assume we actually have our reasons and that those reasons are good enough for us.

If they're wrong, why don't you go over to the official MGT boards and raise your concerns there? They're the ones writing the game after all, not QLI.

Because this is the forum I frequent. If Matt ever asks for my help, or just my opinion, I'll be happy to give it to him. Until that day comes, I'll continue to express my opinions in whatever forum I feel like. In this particular case, for example, it's the one where Matt posted a reference to the MGT:Aslan preview. If he hadn't posted it here, I wouldn't have seen it. Since this is the forum and the thread where the discussion arose, however, I'll continue to post in this thread on this forum, whether it meets with your approval or not.

And I'm asking why it's so important in the first place that you get those answers.

Because if the answer is that Mongoose don't want to be made aware of any unwitting changes they make, I can just ignore them forthwith, but if they actually do want help, I have sufficient fondness for the game to be willing to give it. I might even do it on one of the Mongoose boards.


Hans

 

[travlar]

Given how contradictory canon has been previously (TNE even had completely different base technologies, and the Spinward Marches have changed practically each time they've been published), I don't really think these changes are any more important that what came before. Perhaps if you viewed each edition as its own self-contained canon, you'd be less perplexed?

I'm not sure why you appear to have so much trouble with this concept. It doesn't matter what canon was before, Mongoose are writing what it is now - if that interfere with your existing games then you can just ignore it or you can incorporate it. You're not writing an Imperial History book for Mongoose so why is it so important that every miniscule detail that Mongoose writes tallies with whatever came before?

As far as I know, old versions of Traveller have always been considered canon, not just the new things. And what is wrong with saying what you don't like about a product? Maybe Mongoose will agree with their complaints. What is wrong with saying that you don't like a change and asking for a reason?

 

[drh]

As far as I know, old versions of Traveller have always been considered canon, not just the new things. And what is wrong with saying what you don't like about a product? Maybe Mongoose will agree with their complaints. What is wrong with saying that you don't like a change and asking for a reason?

There is nothing wrong with people saying that they don't like a product, so long as it's done politely, stated once and their own opinion and not as a matter of objective fact, and done constructively and not just for the sake of bitching about the product (or worse, the company behind the product). Unfortunately a lot of the criticisms here aren't presented like that.

The handful of people doing the majority of the criticism here are often either extremely rude and officious about it or have very over-inflated opinions of their own egos and self-importance. Lecturing Mongoose about how they're doing it all wrong, or saying that Marc Miller is wrong, or expecting Mongoose to provide any or all of the reasons for their decisions to random nobodies on the internet is not the right way to approach this at all - it just makes the people doing that look really obnoxious and doesn't help to improve this board's already very low reputation that is there pretty much entirely because of those people.

 

[travlar]

There is nothing wrong with people saying that they don't like a product, so long as it's done politely, stated once and their own opinion and not as a matter of objective fact, and done constructively and not just for the sake of bitching about the product (or worse, the company behind the product). Unfortunately a lot of the criticisms here aren't presented like that.

The handful of people doing the majority of the criticism here are often either extremely rude and officious about it or have very over-inflated opinions of their own egos and self-importance. Lecturing Mongoose about how they're doing it all wrong, or saying that Marc Miller is wrong, or expecting Mongoose to provide any or all of the reasons for their decisions to random nobodies on the internet is not the right way to approach this at all - it just makes the people doing that look really obnoxious and doesn't help to improve this board's already very low reputation that is there pretty much entirely because of those people.

Most of the complaints on this thread looked plenty constuctive to me... I still don't see the problem with pointing out how things contradict previous canon and asking for an explination as for why. Pointless changes are just that, and annoy me if I care at all about the change. Non-pointless ones can be understood, and understanding them may change an opinion. I haven't seen most of the things you're complaining about, so either I'm missing something, or perhaps you're being too touchy. You may wish to look at the posts again to make sure it isn't the second. If that doesn't change your opinion, I think you will need to do a better job of explaning it.

 

[dmccoy1693]

Another reason to be happy that MGTs mostly a non-starter in Germany.

You have no idea how many thousands of Traveller books are being sold in Germany. . .

While I can't attest to Mongoose's numbers, I can say that Jon Brazer Enterprises' MGT products sales in Germany are almost as good as to those in the US and the UK (at least those I have hard data on).

 

[Klaus]

As far as I know, Marc Miller still says that CT, MT, TNE, and T4 are canon too (I'm a little fuzzy about T20 and GT). When MGT Aslan claims that the 2nd Imperium mounted colonization efforts in the Trojan Reach, it's contradicting previous published information. Is that deliberate or accidental? If it's accidental -- and so far I've seen no indication that it isn't -- then Mongoose ought to be happy to be made aware of it, so that they can fix the mistake.

I don't have my books close to hand. Does previous material explicitly forbid 2nd Imperium era colonisation efforts, or does it just not mention it?

It would also be logical, as we already know of at least 3 2I era efforts: the Sword Worlds, the Darrians, and the Islands Clusters, that travelled further than the Trojan Reach.

 

[ThunderChilde]

Alright, look, I was introduced to and then bought traveller way back in '77. It was quite sometime before the 3I reared it's head. I never played in a pure 3I TU, they were all homebrews, some with some 3I flavour. I bailed towards the end on MT, and really didn't like what came after. So I went out into the cold.

Fast Forward to last summer. I heard there was a new version of Traveller coming out, that hewed back to the olde. So bounced around online and eventuall washed up here. Then I came in from the cold.

I bought the Spinward Marches sight unseen, and liked it, alot. Then I bought the MB. By November I was working on a campaign, and getting my crew to entertain the thought. They were generally unwilling at first, bad memories of Iron Man Chargen, Errata till the cows come home, etc. One used to be on the TML and walked away in the flame wars, they aren't playing either. That and a few obnoxious Grogs in the FLGS's near about put the nails in the coffin.

Now I've got a campaign that is almost 7 months runing, I have a COTI member as a player in a small group. I like MGT, and its all I still have of Traveller after a small flood event.

So these little flame wars, spats and contretemps here over Canon really mean less than squat to me. I don't have it, don't remember it well, and never had an attachment to it before. I am using the SM now, and some gurps materials for fluff. IF you don't like it, ignore it. You don't see me ranting about all the crap that came out of TNE which is a miserable set of canon. So pardon me if and when the rebellion is supposed to kick off If I am not dissapointed if it doesn't happen.

 

[Supplement Four]

So these little flame wars, spats and contretemps here over Canon really mean less than squat to me. I don't have it, don't remember it well, and never had an attachment to it before.

This is my point earlier in the thread. MGT is selling well to those who (A) Don't know Traveller well, or (B) don't care about Traveller canon.

The rest of us...do.

 

[DonM]

There are many other indications of the "Broad Brushstroke" approval process being employed and the most recent has to do with bay weaponry.

Mongoose's version of High Guard handles bay weaponry in a much different manner than CT or MT. As you can read in this post to the Freedonian System Defense Boat thread by Don Mooney, he had tried to get Mr. Miller to sign off on a similar change to HG2 last summer and Mr. Miller turned the idea down. Then, only months later, MgT: High Guard introduces what is essentially the same idea Mr. Miller had vetoed.

Ok, first my name's not Dom Mooney... Dom is this author of the very good Power Projection rules, and I did not write that. I do wish I did at times.

I'm Don McKinney. I also happen to be one of two people (Rob being the other) that help Marc review Mongoose materials. And (sigh...) all three of us totally missed the bay weapons thing.

But does that really break the OTU? Not really. Lord knows Traveller publishers have "gotten it wrong" before; GDW contradicted itself enough times. DGP left a few messes behind. Imperium Games? Do I really need to make a list? Those didn't destroy the OTU either.

Want to fix the problem: write an article for Signs & Portents, with issues you've identified between your vision of the OTU and the newest MTG book, and how referees wanting a more "traditional" OTU can make adjustments to the book to follow that path. I think you might actually get paid for such an article (I do stuff for Marc, not Matt, so I'm not up on S&P's policies).

The bay weapon change MGT used just published a common house rule proposed many times. And something similar is in T5's current drafts (Want to help decide if it stays? Buy the CD and join the playtest forums...)

Matt's not perfect, and neither is Marc. Mistakes are going to happen. There is no secret conspiracy to destroy your OTU. Marc and Matt aren't meeting in the secret satellite to force your games to run their way (well, at least Marc hasn't given me the keys to the satellite... Rob?)

Don't be part of making CotI the "anti-Mongoose" board. Be part of fixing the mistakes... I'm sure that Matt would love to see some S&P Traveller articles from the Traveller "old guard".

 

[BeRKA]

BeRKA,

Let me guess. You've got a MgT writing credit?

What!?!?!? If it wasn't for the smilie, that would have been slander.

I was just trying to be positive about their new product. I saw the same problem that you have pointed out, but I still think it looks useful and might be one of the best MgT products so far. From what I can see in the thread You are not completely negative yourself.

 

[G. Kashkanun Anderson]

I don't have my books close to hand. Does previous material explicitly forbid 2nd Imperium era colonisation efforts, or does it just not mention it?

Leviathon, for one, mentions Egyrn Sector being settled at least on an ad hoc basis by Rule of Man colonists. I don't recall reading about any official colonization efforts, however; but then again, organizing anything on a grand scale was never one of the ROM's strong points.

It would also be logical, as we already know of at least 3 2I era efforts: the Sword Worlds, the Darrians, and the Islands Clusters, that travelled further than the Trojan Reach.

Except that none of those examples are from the Rule of Man era. The Itzin Fleet reached Darrian around -1513, which is about ten years after the last remnant body calling itself the Rule of Man winked out of existence (and about 250 years after anything resembling an interstellar empire actually existed). The Sword Worlds were settled about a thousand years after that, by refugees from the Old Earth Union. And the Islands Clusters were settled sometime around Year Zero by sublight generation ships from Terra's pre-Jump spacefaring period. They never even heard of any empire (First, Second, or otherwise) until that inadvertent contact with the Imperial Fleet during the Third Frontier War.