Zonk,
It's not too informal and it's how I "sign" my posts. (Why I'm stuck with Whipsnade is a long story.)
It also appears in a collection called The Early Adventures and that's the only reason I've read it.
Regards,
Bill
Aslan
- Thread starter robject
- Start date
Zonk,
It's not too informal and it's how I "sign" my posts. (Why I'm stuck with Whipsnade is a long story.)
It also appears in a collection called The Early Adventures and that's the only reason I've read it.
Regards,
Bill
I tend to assume that all gamers are kindred spirits until the opposite is proven, so feel free. I'd consider myself on a first name basis with you if I knew your first name.
Debate, please. Discussion, if you like. Spirited argument, if you insist. But 'battle' has connotations that IMO are completely unwarranted.
Hans
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
I'm sure he meant it all in jest 
sigh
Yes, Whipsnade, you are right
how foolish of me to believe that something useful can be gained, even for my own use, that might also be interesting to others.
I guess it'd be a waste of time to share the few conclusions I've come across, because they might possibly show the Aslan in a light that the OTU hadn't thought of, much less mentioned.
Or the similarities and a few differences that I've found in a single day's cursory look at history.
Thank you for the encouragement to contribute something to the community.
Now I remember why I stopped doing this sort of things a couple of years ago.
Adeus
Yes, Whipsnade, you are right
how foolish of me to believe that something useful can be gained, even for my own use, that might also be interesting to others.
I guess it'd be a waste of time to share the few conclusions I've come across, because they might possibly show the Aslan in a light that the OTU hadn't thought of, much less mentioned.
Or the similarities and a few differences that I've found in a single day's cursory look at history.
Thank you for the encouragement to contribute something to the community.
Now I remember why I stopped doing this sort of things a couple of years ago.
Adeus
Ishmael,
Yeah, I guess that's why I wrote:
Go ahead and write it up for YTU and post it to the File Library. I'm sure many people will find it very useful for their TUs.
Pretty straightforward there, huh? I guess I saw no utility in your ideas at all, did I?
Regards,
Bill
Sorry, it was a pun. canon vs cannon
We all know that puns are the lowest form of humour
Ray
After preliminary study
( and ignoring how Aslan social structure mirrors feudal japan's class hierarchy including the eta and hinin outcasts, many cultural beliefs regarding base beliefs, social pressures and attitudes ... and ignoring how the ihatei and gender demographics mirror pride and pride behaviors of panthera leo ).......
The Aslan's diet and refusal to eat synthetically produced foods has a major impact of trade and culture that isn't covered by canon.....
Aslan are carnivores as per OTU
Aslan agriculture is based on the production of livestock and the production of fodder for that livestock as per OTU
This adds an extra trophic layer in the Aslan's foodchain that doesn't necessarily exist in human foodchains, as humans can be and often are predominantly vegetarian.
Because only about 10% of the energy passes upwards between trophic layers, Alsan agriculture must produce 10 times the output when compared to human agriculture , per unit population for any given tech level. This means 10 times the labor, 10 times the area and 10 times the capital investment.... and up to 10 times the volume of transport, whether on world or through space compared to an equal population of humans.
not mentioned in OTU
____________________________________________________________________
Whipsnade.
I specified at the beginning that this was an ATU project to explore the possibilities mentioned, yet you blathered on about how its not OTU for no other reason than to squelch differing ideas. Furthermore, just because you find no utility in my ideas does not mean that others won't find them interesting, even if they end up choosing to discard them. That you would direct me to write it up for the files section rather that openly discuss it here would indicate that somehow, you feel you have the power to dictate what may and may not be talked about...... no wonder the COTI has the reputation it has.
I'll post my writings elsewhere.
Richard
( and ignoring how Aslan social structure mirrors feudal japan's class hierarchy including the eta and hinin outcasts, many cultural beliefs regarding base beliefs, social pressures and attitudes ... and ignoring how the ihatei and gender demographics mirror pride and pride behaviors of panthera leo ).......
The Aslan's diet and refusal to eat synthetically produced foods has a major impact of trade and culture that isn't covered by canon.....
Aslan are carnivores as per OTU
Aslan agriculture is based on the production of livestock and the production of fodder for that livestock as per OTU
This adds an extra trophic layer in the Aslan's foodchain that doesn't necessarily exist in human foodchains, as humans can be and often are predominantly vegetarian.
Because only about 10% of the energy passes upwards between trophic layers, Alsan agriculture must produce 10 times the output when compared to human agriculture , per unit population for any given tech level. This means 10 times the labor, 10 times the area and 10 times the capital investment.... and up to 10 times the volume of transport, whether on world or through space compared to an equal population of humans.
not mentioned in OTU
____________________________________________________________________
Whipsnade.
I specified at the beginning that this was an ATU project to explore the possibilities mentioned, yet you blathered on about how its not OTU for no other reason than to squelch differing ideas. Furthermore, just because you find no utility in my ideas does not mean that others won't find them interesting, even if they end up choosing to discard them. That you would direct me to write it up for the files section rather that openly discuss it here would indicate that somehow, you feel you have the power to dictate what may and may not be talked about...... no wonder the COTI has the reputation it has.
I'll post my writings elsewhere.
Richard
Well done, ignoring all those things.
You're right. That's an implication that has always been completely ignored. The world generation rules are the same for carnivores, omnivores, and herbivores.
While humans can survive on a vegetarian diet, some don't. I'd suggest it would be closer to "reality" to have carnivore populations average one third of omnivore population and herbivore populations average three times as many. But this still makes the Aslan population levels screwy.
One way to alleviate this apparent discrepancy is to consider how lower-class Aslans eat. We know that despite what canon tells us about the irresistible male desire for land, two thirds of Aslan males do not control any land at all [AR2]. Apparently they do manage to resist the urge. Similarly, the Aslan dietary habits we hear about may actually be Aslan upper class dietary habits.
Never assume people will read an entire thread post by post. The original poster didn't say anything about any ATU. Hence it's perfectly reasonable of Bill to assume that you were talking about the OTU. That is, after all, the default assumption.
Hans
I thought about the fact that humans are omnivores already. Given that trophic levels go by biomass as opposed to population numbers and that OTU Aslans average 100kg while humans avg 75 kg, an equal mass of appropriate food/energy can sustain 3 Aslan or 4 humans. And even though many humans do eat meat, the fodder to support *that* livestock has to be considered. but then again your idea of counting 9 herbivores to 3 omnivores to 1 carnivore as a ratio for general population looks okay to me ( if I read it you right ). I haven't looked into comparing known human diets here on earth for % meat to % veggies, but my impression is that the majority of humans don't get 1/3 of their calories through meat products, but I could be wrong. 1:4:9 perhaps ( its pretty too, given the progression of squares...... wrong reason to accept something, though..sigh )
This actually gives a very real reason why land is so valuable to the Aslan that is loads better than the "instinctive territoriality" as a hold-over from their evolutionary past ( which falls right back into the whole intelligent_lion trope ).
One aspect of the "intelligent_lion" model which is useful that explains the ihateri is that the 'second sons' must venture forth to find new land of their own just as male lions must do when the reach maturity within the pride. They then either find unclaimed territory on their own, or 'take over' another pride. The alternative to this would be fratricide or infanticide.
I'm afraid that the solution that OTU diet only covers nobility might seem okay at first, but it has its own problems. To allow that only 1/3 on all males eat only meat, then it would effective force every other member of the race would be nearly vegetarian.
But to address the problem in a reasonable fashion would mean to redo a lot of uwp's
and redo any trade tables. I'll redo my econo-sim spreadsheet to see how it'd affect import and export volumes, but post any results in the IMTU forum to prevent any ruffled feathers ( assuming I actually get 'round to it )
____________________________________________________________________
I'm afraid to say that I didn't have to make any assumptions in Bill's case.
I stated my intentions clearly about this being an exercise in ATU, because I KNOW my idea is not covered by the OTU.... and he replied about it being ATU in a direct manner.
His irrational fear of stereotypes being applied drove him to prevent me from applying ( or even discussing ) snippets of history to a culture that is portrayed as being similar ( identical in many ways ) with similar government and social/economic pressures to the period I mentioned.
This exercise would have done one of 3 things.... flesh out details for non-nobility Aslan's lives...... shattered any stereotypes completely...... given ideas and adventure hooks for cultures similar to that portrayed by Aslan.
But clearly, challenging the orthodoxy is frowned upon here.
So I'll post any findings in a friendlier clime.
Richard
Bill is NOT one of the people who is routinely mentioned when denigration of the culture on CotI is heard elsewhere.
Nor is he even implicitly trying to control what's talked about.
The suggestion to write your ideas up is a good one, whether you do it for a new discussion thread, or for the files section, or for Freelance Traveller (which would, as always, welcome good contributions), or for a thread on the Freelance Traveller Forums (which I wish I could figure out a way to generate traffic for...), or for... (et cetera). I encourage you to follow through and do so; ATUs and ideas derived from them can be as much inspiration for others as canonical material - and, as I've written on the TML, Canon is IRRELEVANT for players and referees; you go with what you like, for your game. Perhaps I should lightly revise my rant, and post it as a new thread on CotI.
mega:Richard,
Next time I'll remember to use sarcasm tags.
I'm repeating this sentence for the third time in this thread, please read it and believe it:
When I wrote; "Pretty straightforward there, huh? I guess I saw no utility in your ideas at all, did I?" afterward I was being sarcastic. I've always seen a great utility in your ideas concerning the Aslan for personal TUs and ATUs. My objections have had to do with the OTU alone and I've always presented them as such.
Please feel free to continue exploring your ideas in this thread as I will no longer post in it so that you can feel "comfortable". Your work on Aslan dietary issues is one that has been sadly overlooked in canon and should prove very interesting.
Regards,
Bill
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Agreed, the other factors you mention play a part too. There's a limit to how much detail we can go into, though.
However, non-productive land is also valued by the Aslan. That has to be purely cultural.
Or contraception. Once technology reaches a certain level, biological problems tend to become at least partly cultural. Note that the clan described in the adventure in Aslan had skipped at least one generation when it sent out a new ihatei fleet (And not a very big fleet either).
That's not what I wanted to suggest. But the restriction against synthetic meat might be relaxed for low-status Aslan (not just males -- I just mentioned male land-hunger as one example where a canonical fact was demostrably not as clear-cut as it seemed). It may even stretch to including vegetable protein. I remmeber my sister used to make cat food by mixing in peas and carrots with fish. I don't know what the proportions were, but the taste of the fish made the cats eat the peas and carrots. OTOH, any kind of vegetable matter might easily be considered dishonorable even for low-status Aslan. But the synthetic meat might fly. In fact, I don't see how yuo can get high populations on barren worlds if it doesn't. And at ultra-tech levels the loss of energy when converting vegetable to meat might be less than using the old-fashioned method of shoveling it into a meat animal.
UWPs certainly, but are the trade tables really detailed enough to be sensitive to any differences of this kind?
If you want to explore alternate universes, you should start a thread of your own rather than diverting someone else's. I can guarantee you that Bill will either leave the thread alone or, more likely, join in enthusiastically.
Hans
Not completely true. Canon is relevant for referees who want to maximize their chances of being able to use material created by others, and for fans who'd like their material to be useful to others. But it's true that canon isn't crucial to anyone who realize that it isn't.
Hans
Mmmm... I'll concede the point, while noting that your statement applies only where there IS canon that could potentially conflict with the fanac. If I'm writing about the goings-on in Aldebaran sector, however, canon relevant to the Spinward Marches, for example, is, in fact, irrelevant.
mega:I need information concerning the 3:1 sex ratio.
Is it at conception ( genetically predisposed to give birth to 3 females for every male )
is it at birth ( caused by high infant mortality rates )
is it at reproductive maturity ( caused by very high mortality rate in the male population )
or is it at some other time
'At death' is unlikely due to lower female lifespan....
I ask because the accepted sex ratio does not seem to follow Fisher's Principle which generally leads to a 1:1 sex ratio as the evolutionary stable strategy. Some simulations would seem to indicate that a ratio very different from 1:1 leads to eventual extinction unless certain mortality numbers are juggled a bit.
As this could affect attitudes concerning life and death within the society at large, I'd like an opinion that's somewhat "official".
Richard
Is it at conception ( genetically predisposed to give birth to 3 females for every male )
is it at birth ( caused by high infant mortality rates )
is it at reproductive maturity ( caused by very high mortality rate in the male population )
or is it at some other time
'At death' is unlikely due to lower female lifespan....
I ask because the accepted sex ratio does not seem to follow Fisher's Principle which generally leads to a 1:1 sex ratio as the evolutionary stable strategy. Some simulations would seem to indicate that a ratio very different from 1:1 leads to eventual extinction unless certain mortality numbers are juggled a bit.
As this could affect attitudes concerning life and death within the society at large, I'd like an opinion that's somewhat "official".
Richard
I don't think anyone has ever entertained the notion that it wasn't genetic. However, all the original text says is:
Aslan said:
Um... evolutionary speaking, what's the difference between females outnumbering males at birth and females outnumbering males following a high male infant mortality? I've heard people argue that assymetric gender distribution isn't mechanically possible, but this one is new to me.
What if it's high male fetus abortion rate? I.e. a female get's three boys and three girls, but two of the male fetuses die within days?
Hans
I was hoping there was something besides the simple statement about the 3:1 sex ratios.
I'm looking into this sort of thing now to rule out infanticide, fratricide and the like. I think I'll go with 3:1 ratio for the tertiary sex ratio ( sexually active organisms ) and see what turns up.
If its pure genetic, then I'll have to research into how that'd have affected the overall population assuming similar mortalities for both sexes.
Shorter female lifespans and longer gestation periods might have an affect on things too. ( shorter window for making babies )
Did anyone notice that the DGP Solomani and Aslan illustrations show Aslan with nipples...kinda funny considering that they aren't mammals.... but then again, the text gives no details about child care either.
Just trying to look at things that determine social attitudes.
thanks
I'm looking into this sort of thing now to rule out infanticide, fratricide and the like. I think I'll go with 3:1 ratio for the tertiary sex ratio ( sexually active organisms ) and see what turns up.
If its pure genetic, then I'll have to research into how that'd have affected the overall population assuming similar mortalities for both sexes.
Shorter female lifespans and longer gestation periods might have an affect on things too. ( shorter window for making babies )
Did anyone notice that the DGP Solomani and Aslan illustrations show Aslan with nipples...kinda funny considering that they aren't mammals.... but then again, the text gives no details about child care either.
Just trying to look at things that determine social attitudes.
thanks
Who says they're not mammals? Obviously they're not members of the class of mammals belonging to Sphere Terra, but there's no reason why a class of vertebrate animals whose females are characterized by the possession of mammary glands couldn't exist under other spheres. The other characteristica of the mammals of Terra may or may not also apply to Sphere Kusyu, Class Mammal -- unlikely that all of them would. But I'm sure that with thousands of biospheres to classify, future taxonomers would reuse as much as possible from sphere to sphere.
There's a drawing in Aslan that shows a male Aslan with nipples and a navel.
Hans
JustinInOz
SOC-12
Aslan Sex Ratio
The statement of the 3:1 is not backed up with a mechanism as to why. The fact that there are not many examples of the 1:1 ratio being broken on Earth should not trouble us too much.
There are examples of this ratio being broken on Earth. I know that temperature of the nest has an impact on gender of eggs hatching in crocodiles. Some aquatic snails change gender through the course of their lives. What I am saying here is that we should not get too hung up on terran analogues.
I think we should look at what would be more interesting. One thing about Aslan that strikes me is that they have really strongly separated gender roles. Females do the thinking; males do the fighting and take the risks. Another is that they have prides where one male has several females. From what I understand, when a male lion takes over a pride, he kills all of the immature offspring that are present. Maybe the Aslan only kill off the immature males? That would be one way to move the ratio.
Another way is that, even though their duels are structured to no be deadly, accidents do happen. Each duel is a spin of the wheel. You engage in 20 duels or so and your number will likely come up. When anthropologists interviewed the indigenous of Greenland, every single adult male had been involved in a homicide. (War Before Civilisation - The Myth of the Peaceful Savage by Lawrence Keeley)
Lastly is that the vast number of males go out and try to gain some land. When they do, they are cut off from the benefits of the female thinking part of society. They are all "yang" and no "yin". They try all sorts of crazy things to gain honour and land. A lot of these ventures do not turn out well. So 2 out of 3 of the young males do not make it back to lead prides.
In short, we have two main ways to account for this ratio. The first is that they are simply born that way. That is least interesting for me. More interesting is that their society causes 2 out of 3 males to be killed. This is genetically beneficial for their race - The breeding males are the "most fit". It allows for their polygamy. It also makes for older Aslan males to be incredible bad asses.
My vote is for the latter.
The statement of the 3:1 is not backed up with a mechanism as to why. The fact that there are not many examples of the 1:1 ratio being broken on Earth should not trouble us too much.
There are examples of this ratio being broken on Earth. I know that temperature of the nest has an impact on gender of eggs hatching in crocodiles. Some aquatic snails change gender through the course of their lives. What I am saying here is that we should not get too hung up on terran analogues.
I think we should look at what would be more interesting. One thing about Aslan that strikes me is that they have really strongly separated gender roles. Females do the thinking; males do the fighting and take the risks. Another is that they have prides where one male has several females. From what I understand, when a male lion takes over a pride, he kills all of the immature offspring that are present. Maybe the Aslan only kill off the immature males? That would be one way to move the ratio.
Another way is that, even though their duels are structured to no be deadly, accidents do happen. Each duel is a spin of the wheel. You engage in 20 duels or so and your number will likely come up. When anthropologists interviewed the indigenous of Greenland, every single adult male had been involved in a homicide. (War Before Civilisation - The Myth of the Peaceful Savage by Lawrence Keeley)
Lastly is that the vast number of males go out and try to gain some land. When they do, they are cut off from the benefits of the female thinking part of society. They are all "yang" and no "yin". They try all sorts of crazy things to gain honour and land. A lot of these ventures do not turn out well. So 2 out of 3 of the young males do not make it back to lead prides.
In short, we have two main ways to account for this ratio. The first is that they are simply born that way. That is least interesting for me. More interesting is that their society causes 2 out of 3 males to be killed. This is genetically beneficial for their race - The breeding males are the "most fit". It allows for their polygamy. It also makes for older Aslan males to be incredible bad asses.
My vote is for the latter.
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The problem with this (somewhat) bloodthirsty interpretation is there is no sound reason to stop at 2 out of 3 -- just kill every post-pubescent male but one, to insure only the absolute most fit male breeds with the entire rest of the race -- or at least the clan. Otherwise, Aslan clans may develop different traditions: 2 in 3, 1 in 10, 1 in 100, whatever... and there goes the otherwise-consistent ratio across the culture.
As I see it, it is perfectly sensible as a genetic quirk: there are two chromosomes that control sex selection in Aslan, each parent can produce either one in a gamete with equal probability, but both chromosomes have to be type M to produce a male offspring -- otherwise the 'dominant' F is expressed and the M has to wait a generation for another chance to be dominant in an embryo via joint expression from both parents.
Aslan sexual practices are probably quite non-Human; polygamy and lesbianism will be the norm, while hetero monogamy may viewed as some sort of perversion... the practices of Aslan prostitutes and courtesans are thereby left as an adventure hook for the reader...
