Auto & Assualt Carbines

[Sir Brad]

I know their the same animal in modern parlance, but back in the day (when CT was released through the mid 80's) their was a slim distinction, yet despite being around for some 30-40 odd years they didn't make it in to the Traveller game, should I lump the TL6 M2 Automatic Carbine in with the TL7+ M16 Assualt Carbine and the TL8+ M4 (assault) Carbine and give them one set of weapon stats or string them out across two TL's calling the TL6 weapon the Automatic Carbine and the TL7+ three round Burst limited weapon the Assault Carbine?

I think the Stats I did back in the day actually work for a M2 style weapon, more resent stats I've cooked up may work for M16A2 and maby M4 type weapons as well.

 

[HG_B]

I know their the same animal in modern parlance, but back in the day (when CT was released through the mid 80's) their was a slim distinction, yet despite being around for some 30-40 odd years they didn't make it in to the Traveller game, should I lump the TL6 M2 Automatic Carbine in with the TL7+ M16 Assualt Carbine and the TL8+ M4 (assault) Carbine and give them one set of weapon stats or string them out across two TL's calling the TL6 weapon the Automatic Carbine and the TL7+ three round Burst limited weapon the Assault Carbine?

I think the Stats I did back in the day actually work for a M2 style weapon, more resent stats I've cooked up may work for M16A2 and maby M4 type weapons as well.

I think you are mixing your terms. There is no real "assault carbine". The carbine was developed for to replace .45 pistols carried by vehicle crews & company grade officers to offer better defensive capability. So, you have "assault rifles" and "carbines". Separate animals.

I have an M2 Carbine. Only different from the M1 carbine in that it is full auto if selected. The M1 Rifle shoots 30.06 (a rifle cartridge)

 

[Sir Brad]

Not excataly true depending on who you talk to, in many parts of the world M16 some veraints (and other 5.56 NATO weapons) with shorter barrels and some types furniture aren't considered Rifles due to their performance characteristics (decreased Effective Range, Penetration & Stopping Power) and are hence designated Assault Carbines, One ADF Range Master & Armour I know likes to rif on the Gray area between the technical specs of Automatic Carbines, Assault Carbines, Cut-down Assault Rifles and Rifle Cartridge SMG's.

Did you know if you modify a M4 to be non Burst Limited it fits the technical description of all four weapon types, same can be said about some set ups of the Styer.

 

[HG_B]

Not excataly true depending on who you talk to,

Could be. I have never seen a group of assault troops (not police/counter terror, etc. but combat troops) armed with a carbine.

 

[Major B]

One ADF Range Master & Armour I know likes to rif on the Gray area between the technical specs of Automatic Carbines, Assault Carbines, Cut-down Assault Rifles and Rifle Cartridge SMG's.

Could you post those specs?

And do they differentiate between carbines that fire rifle ammunition and carbines that fire pistol ammunition?

 

[Sir Brad]

If you want to be polite about what you call a weapon, you call it what the Manufacturer and/or Primary User calls it, both the US DoD and Colt call the M4 a Carbine, the XM-117 was classified as both a Carbine and a SMG.

 

[Sir Brad]

Could you post those specs?

And do they differentiate between carbines that fire rifle ammunition and carbines that fire pistol ammunition?

I'd love to but some parts of them are considered Privileged Information by some agencies, I haven't bean given all of them myself and may have had slip to me bits of info that a Civie technically isn't meant to have and I don't know what bits those are. but from what I gather only Rifle Cartridge weapons fall in to the Gray area

 

[HG_B]

If you want to be polite about what you call a weapon, you call it what the Manufacturer and/or Primary User calls it, both the US DoD and Colt call the M4 a Carbine, the XM-117 was classified as both a Carbine and a SMG.

True. Although, the M16 Rifle replaced it. Higher muzzle velocity & round energy.

 

[aramis]

I've seen news footage with longbarrelled SMG's (Ingrams and Uzis) from the Mid East. I suspect those, also, would qual as "assault carbines".

 

[abomination]

Personally I think that this is a bit picky in a system that doesn't know the differece between a broadsword & longsword.

 

[Sir Brad]

I've seen news footage with longbarrelled SMG's (Ingrams and Uzis) from the Mid East. I suspect those, also, would qual as "assault carbines".

Not sure apparently to class as a weapon of a fixed type it must check a set number of boxes from a list, a so many of them are must haves and the rest are optional as long as the weapon makes the magic number.

 

[aramis]

Here's the lists of what *I* think of by type:

Rifle: Long barrel, stock, typically medium or large caliber, long brass

Carbine: Medium barrel, stock (sometimes folding), typically large caliber, long or medium brass

SMG: Short barrel, No or folding stock, typically medium caliber, short or medium brass.

Pistol: very short or short barrel, no stock, small to medium caliber, short or medium brass

Assault rifle: medium to between medium and long barrel, any caliber, medium to long case, stock (often folding), light weight, burst and/or full auto. High capacity (20+) detatchable magazine.

Machine pistol: no stock, short or very short barrel, small caliber, short brass, burst and/or full auto.

From this, I'd say an assault carbine would be: between short and medium barrel (20cm), folding stock, burst or full auto, high capacity magazine.

 

[Vargas]

Could be. I have never seen a group of assault troops (not police/counter terror, etc. but combat troops) armed with a carbine.

Depending on the definition, both airborne troops during WWII and quite a lot of US troops in Iraq and Afghanistan used/use carbines.

 

[Sir Brad]

As did many (if not most) US Troops in the Pacific Theatre during WWII as did a good number of British, Empire & Commonwealth troops, US Troops serving in the Korean Police Action, British, Empire & Commonwealth troops during the Malaya Emergency, Lots of Mounted Infantry & II Cav today use Carbines, as do Airborne/Paratroops, Air Mobile, Recon and Special Forces.

 

[vitalis6969]

A carbine is simply a short barreled rifle. Nothing more, nothing less. Assault, automatic, etc are are irrelevant terms being applied to it. Carbines are carbines, just refer to the weapon however the manufacturer does.

A carbine will have a shorter barrel than the rifle version.

In the case of SMGs that would normally be sold as pistols, fixed stocks are applied along with the minimum 16" barrel to make it legal for non tax stamp sales in the US. And thus it becomes a carbine instead of a pistol and no special licensing is required.

-V

 

[vitalis6969]

Could be. I have never seen a group of assault troops (not police/counter terror, etc. but combat troops) armed with a carbine.

Try most of the US Army is armed with carbines.

Marines are carrying rifles.

-V

 

[Prometheus]

Try most of the US Army is armed with carbines.

Marines are carrying rifles.

-V

The M4 is a carbine... and the marines are now converting to it... the "musket" M16A2 is being sold off.

 

[vitalis6969]

The M4 is a carbine... and the marines are now converting to it... the "musket" M16A2 is being sold off.

The Marines are using the A4, as in M16A4, a full size rifle.

And of course the M4 is a carbine, that is what I said. That is why I pointed it out to the individual who said that he has never seen a frontline combat trooper using a carbine.

They use the M4, it is a carbine.

 

[Prometheus]

The Marines are using the A4, as in M16A4, a full size rifle.

And of course the M4 is a carbine, that is what I said. That is why I pointed it out to the individual who said that he has never seen a frontline combat trooper using a carbine.

They use the M4, it is a carbine.

Certainly, but my cousin who is a Jar head... (I was Army Airborne OEF/OIF)... is in Helmand with a M4 presently ... The corps is making the transition.

 

[vitalis6969]

Certainly, but my cousin who is a Jar head... (I was Army Airborne OEF/OIF)... is in Helmand with a M4 presently ... The corps is making the transition.

Cool, thanks for the info. Wasn't sure how much the Marines were using the A4 so I checked on one of the gunboards I frequent and was told this:

"We have both. Depends on the unit TO&E and billet.

M4 are not replacing A4 though."

Thanks again for the heads up, didn't realize the jar heads started using a carbine lol. I know they are supposed to be transitioning to the A5 soon, which is just a collapsible stocked A4.

-V