Auto & Assualt Carbines

[BlackBat242]

This... right here... ^^^^^^^ Mr. Burns nailed it out of the park.

The rounds behind will push, exploded barrels from a bullet blockage are rather overblown.

The unfired round will at least double the mass (depending on how much un-burned propellant is left from the first round) the next round's propelling charge has to push, which will increase the time it will take to clear the barrel.

This will greatly increase the pressure inside the chamber/barrel... you had better have a barrel rated for that overpressure... which does add weight... and the metalstorm concept has a bunch of such barrels on one mount, vs 1-6 barrels in a conventional rapid-fire gun... making the metalstorm gun heavy.

Now, on to the 40mm launcher. Like any type of explosive round, there could be a fantastic reason to have all of the rounds going downrange at one time, or a barrels worth.

Same reason they train so hard to have batteries of artillery land every round in a salvo with the same time on target. The enemy has no time to react and get to cover.

The Mk 19 fires one round after another. So let's say your badguys are exposed in the open but spread out far more than the standard round will cover with its burst radius. You start firing, a certain amount of those baddies will be under cover after the first couple of rounds hit. Now, fire off an entire barrel at one time? That is several rounds landing at one time.

At basically the same spot, if the "all rounds fired before recoil effects are significant" concept is true.

If all the rounds are fired that quick, trying to spread your burst by "sweeping" the barrel won't spread the burst much if at all.

So now you still have hit only one spot (although you really spread that one target into a fine mist), and don't even have any rounds left to shift aim and fire with... how is that an advantage?

Or you set the selector to fire only 1-2 rounds per trigger pull, so you can shoot at more targets... and you are shooting the same way as you would with the conventional weapon.



Really, this mass-fire concept is "better" only for the few targets requiring a massive amount of fire at one shot... which aren't that common in most combats.

And if you really want to continue the field artillery analogy... just how bulky, heavy, and hard to transport will a multi-barrel metalstorm-type 105mm or 155mm artillery piece be, eh? And how will you achieve the OTHER part of the "TOT fire" requirement... that each artillery piece hits just a little way off from the others, so as to cover an area thoroughly?

 

[Dragoner]

I wouldn't mix a grenade launcher up with being artillery, it is a support weapon.

The reality with the firestorm is that survivability is low, lower than an individual that could take cover. So a massed fire into the attacking force is it's best usage, however many rounds it could get off towards a few targets would be key.

 

[shadowcat20]

Concerning unfired rounds, If a round pushes a second one out then the pressure may cause a "Walnut" in the barrel. This is a common danger in blackpowder rifles when the bullet is not seated all the way. You will have the pressure build up to form a "bubble" for lack of a better term in the barrel. As you keep firing the weapon this area will slowly expand like a bubble until the barrel bursts.

 

[Jame]

One of the things that Traveller (the game) and Travellers (the players) often overlook is the progression of technology at later TLs. For example, a carbine at TL 4 might be different from one at TL 5, which might not be very different from one at TL 6 but would be different from one at TL 7 or 8; e.g. a 1640s dragoon carbine is single shot and needs loading each firing, while a 1915 one is only different from a 1943 M1 carbine by being bolt-action, but a 1990s M4 is as powerful as an M16, which itself would be different from a TL 9-11 one by using brass cartridges, while the TL 9-11 carbine would be a caseless weapon but the TL 12 carbine would (and YES I DO mean WOULD) be Gauss.

The unfired round will at least double the mass (depending on how much un-burned propellant is left from the first round) the next round's propelling charge has to push, which will increase the time it will take to clear the barrel.

This will greatly increase the pressure inside the chamber/barrel... you had better have a barrel rated for that overpressure... which does add weight... and the metalstorm concept has a bunch of such barrels on one mount, vs 1-6 barrels in a conventional rapid-fire gun... making the metalstorm gun heavy.

What about caseless weapons? Do they jam like this? And what happens if it jams?

 

[far-trader]

Concerning unfired rounds, If a round pushes a second one out then the pressure may cause a "Walnut" in the barrel. This is a common danger in blackpowder rifles when the bullet is not seated all the way. You will have the pressure build up to form a "bubble" for lack of a better term in the barrel. As you keep firing the weapon this area will slowly expand like a bubble until the barrel bursts.

I would expect the barrels are made to handle it. And it's not like it's going to happen repeatedly in a firefight, and the barrel would likely be replaced after such an incident.

I figured I'd do a little googling to check my recall. I found an interview with Art Schatz, then (still?) Vice President of Business Development for Metal Storm USA, talking about the Discovery program (Future Weapons) where iirc I heard the remark about clearing a misfire. Here's an excerpt (full pdf link below)...

Copyright American Antigravity:

AAG: "...what happens to misfires. The Discovery special indicated that if a round fails to fire, it does block the barrel, but that it can be easily ejected by simply firing the next round behind it, giving it a push out the front. However, can't this lead to overpressure in the barrel, increasing the possibility of a barrel rupture in the process?"

Schatz: "We have fired numerous rounds to purposely simulate a misfire. When a round is determined not to have been fired, the system can automatically shut down the firing sequence of that barrel. That’s the beauty of the Metal Storm system, with multiple barrels, the shutting down of a single barrel still allows the weapon to be effective in battle. The safe option is to close the particular barrel down or simply change the munition cartridge. In an operational scenario where a soldier’s life depended on the weapon firing, he can fire the follow on round to clear the barrel. Compared to a conventional weapon this option may be a life saver."

...fwiw.

Full PDF of interview:

http://www.americanantigravity.com/documents/Metal-Storm-Interview.pdf

 

[Dragoner]

I could see a couple or three of the firestorms being a good perimeter defence system. They could launch their grenades (max 72) into an assault force disrupting or delaying it until you could assemble your forces for defence. Esp on an airless world, they don't need PLSS or a rotating watch as they could be 24/7 on the go. Much like the Mars rover they could be semi-autonomous, guided by defence controllers but their actions are actually programmed.

 

[shadowcat20]

Moving they would be easy to spot and pre empt by taking them out in one volly. May be better to have hidden emplacements with remote sensors. The attackers will have no idea they are there until the rounds start landing. The shock would disrupt the attackers and put them on the defensive for more surprises. Could throw off the attackers timetable a bit.

 

[Dragoner]

It is terrain dependent, moving/attacking in the open is always dubious. Though for the attacker, once you have had to open fire to eliminate the firestorms, you will have lost the element of suprise and maybe even the initiative. The defender will have only lost a few robots, cheap at the price of a trained infantryman and it allows the defender to not only call in pre-registered artillery fires, but to activate positional defenses such as minefields and emplaced automatic VRF GG's with interlocking fields of fire to make "kill zones", even if your robots get caught in your kill zone or FFE, still not that big of a loss.

 

[BlackBat242]

What about caseless weapons? Do they jam like this? And what happens if it jams?

Whether caseless or cased*, if the propellant fails to push the bullet/shell clear of the barrel for whatever reason, this is a "jam", and will cause the overpressure condition.

The 3 types of jam would be:
1. failure if the propellant to fire
2. incomplete burning of propellant
3. physical jamming of the bullet in the barrel for whatever reason



* Metalstorm uses a special cased propellant:

http://www.metalstorm.com/content/view/64/109/

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

in a base defense role, i could see a few tubes being dug in and aimed to cover likey avenues of approach. i would belive that the tubes would be lot maintianace, have very little (or is it no?) moving parts, just a electric circiut. you could dig them in, lay a command wire back to the HQ, stick some light cammo on top (somthing the tubes can shoot though, like cloth (or whatever suits the terrian), then leave them, maybe checking them once every sic months.

then, one day, when the zhodani come over the hill, then you pop the tube, and bang!, one round down range!

it owuld also make a good Guerrilla weapon, for the same reasons. It's simple, low maintianace, and can be remoted.

 

[shadowcat20]

I could see a package deal. Have a crate with a dozen preloaded rounds, a sighting tool, control box, wire, and directions. Dig in the tube, use the sighting tool to figure out target point, lay the line in shielded pipework to the control and wait.

Think I might try to work up somethng more Refined and post it...

 

[Xerxeskingofking]

a thought about how to take advantage of the "really rapid fire" trick for a arty/motar type system:

use smart rounds, that spread out along pre-determined routes. sure, it would increase the cost, but you could get a whole batterys worth of fire form one tube, and could carpet a large area with a small, easy to hife system.

 

[vitalis6969]

The unfired round will at least double the mass (depending on how much un-burned propellant is left from the first round) the next round's propelling charge has to push, which will increase the time it will take to clear the barrel.

This will greatly increase the pressure inside the chamber/barrel... you had better have a barrel rated for that overpressure... which does add weight... and the metalstorm concept has a bunch of such barrels on one mount, vs 1-6 barrels in a conventional rapid-fire gun... making the metalstorm gun heavy.

Easily bypassed with blowoff valves like have already been implemented. You don't like the metalstorm, that is fine, but you are really reaching on the weight issue.

At basically the same spot, if the "all rounds fired before recoil effects are significant" concept is true.

If all the rounds are fired that quick, trying to spread your burst by "sweeping" the barrel won't spread the burst much if at all.

So now you still have hit only one spot (although you really spread that one target into a fine mist), and don't even have any rounds left to shift aim and fire with... how is that an advantage?

Hardly the case, deviation will spread the burst, and obviously you would use it that way when the situation requires it.

Really, this mass-fire concept is "better" only for the few targets requiring a massive amount of fire at one shot... which aren't that common in most combats.

Please cite you source on this information.

And if you really want to continue the field artillery analogy... just how bulky, heavy, and hard to transport will a multi-barrel metalstorm-type 105mm or 155mm artillery piece be, eh? And how will you achieve the OTHER part of the "TOT fire" requirement... that each artillery piece hits just a little way off from the others, so as to cover an area thoroughly?

Who said anything about a 105mm or 155mm metalstorm artillery piece?

My discussion was purely for ammunition in the 20mm to 40mm range.

In the case of a multi barreled metalstorm type electronic weapon, it would shine far better in a defensive nature.

-V

 

[BlackBat242]

Who said anything about a 105mm or 155mm metalstorm artillery piece?

My discussion was purely for ammunition in the 20mm to 40mm range.

In the case of a multi barreled metalstorm type electronic weapon, it would shine far better in a defensive nature.

-V

You were the one saying that field artillery-style TOT fires could be met with metalstorm guns... not me.

 

[vitalis6969]

You were the one saying that field artillery-style TOT fires could be met with metalstorm guns... not me.

Exactly, artillery style time on targets.... All in a conversation about 40mm nades. I said nothing about large caliber artillery being tubed up like metalstorm barrels. Not sure how you could have reached that conclusion, but meh, whatever.

-V