BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
Hey, as long as you can make the initial salvo miss, you are fine... because that robot had no reloads for those launchers.
They will have to return to a re-arming station once they have fired their 4 grenades.
Auto & Assualt Carbines
- Thread starter Sir Brad
- Start date
Hey, as long as you can make the initial salvo miss, you are fine... because that robot had no reloads for those launchers.
They will have to return to a re-arming station once they have fired their 4 grenades.
Actually the metalstorm has a unique feature in that multiple projectiles can be fired from each barrel. They use an electronic ignition system that fires each round individually. They make a number of multi barreled weapons.
I can't speak to the practicality of the system, but the technology is interesting and is still relatively new. Who knows where it will lead.
There are some interesting vids on youtube if you search metalstorm
This is just one. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwN1JbeLGj0
Yes, I forgot that. ROF can be up to 1 million rounds per minute in some metalstorm configurations, of course they don't hold a million rounds so at that rate of fire they empty quickly.
r
vitalis6969
SOC-7
The ones that I have included in my game so far are four barreled pistols and four barreled rifles for boarding actions. The rounds are electrically fired, obviously 
, and utilize a solid propellant for use in vacuum.
The pistols can fire 1 round or 36 rounds (all rounds in all four barrels) per pull of the trigger. Rifles can do the same.
Absolutely brutal in use so far.
-V
, and utilize a solid propellant for use in vacuum.The pistols can fire 1 round or 36 rounds (all rounds in all four barrels) per pull of the trigger. Rifles can do the same.
Absolutely brutal in use so far.
-V
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
But not in the grenade launcher I was talking about!
Sorry, I thought we were talking about the iRobot Metalstorm unit in the picture.
BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
I was... since the post didn't give a link to any description of the actual weapons system in the apparently random "that looks neat, what is it" picture, I had to go by pure guess-work... and it didn't look like the barrel/chamber length was long enough to both provide sufficient length for properly concentrated gas expansion (shell velocity & thus range, remember those details?) and also for extra rounds, so I had to guess.
Now that I have searched on-line for myself, I found that the pictured item apparently has 6 rounds per barrel... and is 40mm... both facts which were unavailable from either the post or the pic.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/03/16/metal-storm-and-irobot-team-up/
However, I tend to agree with this poster on that blog:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_19_grenade_launcher
The Mk 19 looks to be about the same weight and bulk as the MSiR shown, and is already in mass-production.
Therefore, you could mount an existing fully-auto Mk 19 on that robot, and have something that is just as effective in a real-world situation.
Everyone raves about the "up to 1 million rounds per minute" claim... but ignore the fact that that is "cyclic rate" (the rate the weapon could fire at with an infinite ammo supply and no malfunctions), and the sustained fire rate (includes reload times, etc) won't be a lot faster in reality than current weapons, and will require more transport for the same number of rounds, due to the larger and heavier "loaded barrel" system.
Yes, that mass fire-burst looks impressive and "kewl", but in reality the need is for precisely aimed and effective fire, not indiscriminate mass fire area destruction... we have much better ways to do that if desired.
Then consider something else... recoil.
vitalis6969 mentioned pistols that can fire 1 round or 36 rounds (all rounds in all four barrels) per pull of the trigger.
Do you have any idea just how massive that recoil would be, and how uncontrollable the weapon would be during firing?
Yes, I know the rounds go off really fast, but even so, the weapon would no longer be aimed at the intended target for at least half the rounds.
To me, this would make such a pistol dangerous and impractical.
And what happens when a round fails to fire, and the one behind it fires? A blown barrel, disabled weapon, and serious injury or death to the operator (unless 100% remote-operated).
And yes, "when" is correct... there will be failures to fire, and anyone who tells you that the ammo is 100% fail-proof is lying out his @ss!
Now that I have searched on-line for myself, I found that the pictured item apparently has 6 rounds per barrel... and is 40mm... both facts which were unavailable from either the post or the pic.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2010/03/16/metal-storm-and-irobot-team-up/
However, I tend to agree with this poster on that blog:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mk_19_grenade_launcher
The Mk 19 looks to be about the same weight and bulk as the MSiR shown, and is already in mass-production.
Therefore, you could mount an existing fully-auto Mk 19 on that robot, and have something that is just as effective in a real-world situation.
Everyone raves about the "up to 1 million rounds per minute" claim... but ignore the fact that that is "cyclic rate" (the rate the weapon could fire at with an infinite ammo supply and no malfunctions), and the sustained fire rate (includes reload times, etc) won't be a lot faster in reality than current weapons, and will require more transport for the same number of rounds, due to the larger and heavier "loaded barrel" system.
Yes, that mass fire-burst looks impressive and "kewl", but in reality the need is for precisely aimed and effective fire, not indiscriminate mass fire area destruction... we have much better ways to do that if desired.
Then consider something else... recoil.
vitalis6969 mentioned pistols that can fire 1 round or 36 rounds (all rounds in all four barrels) per pull of the trigger.
Do you have any idea just how massive that recoil would be, and how uncontrollable the weapon would be during firing?
Yes, I know the rounds go off really fast, but even so, the weapon would no longer be aimed at the intended target for at least half the rounds.
To me, this would make such a pistol dangerous and impractical.
And what happens when a round fails to fire, and the one behind it fires? A blown barrel, disabled weapon, and serious injury or death to the operator (unless 100% remote-operated).
And yes, "when" is correct... there will be failures to fire, and anyone who tells you that the ammo is 100% fail-proof is lying out his @ss!
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I have to weigh in the MK19 Is a piece of junk ... it seemed like every patrol (21 day motorized patrols) we would have to pull a lodged round.
On the other hand it only malfunctioned once in combat but the gunner had already put 6-7 rounds around the target area... I earned a "V" device that day.
Sorry if anyone was confused about the picture, I took it from the company website:
http://www.metalstorm.com/
http://www.metalstorm.com/
Not at all buddy.. it was an interesting debate.
BlackBat242,
you raise some good points, a solution in search of a problem and especially the recoil of firring all those rounds at once.
As I said originally I couldn't speak to the practicality of the system, but it is interesting tech none the less. Who knows where it will lead.
R
you raise some good points, a solution in search of a problem and especially the recoil of firring all those rounds at once.
As I said originally I couldn't speak to the practicality of the system, but it is interesting tech none the less. Who knows where it will lead.
R
far-trader
SOC-14 10K
Can't say for the grenade launcher, and it does sound like a concern. The basic metal storm firearms advertised that a failed round is simply pushed out the barrel by the next one down the tube (fired by the bullet behind). Presumably those two rounds are next to useless for combat purposes but the remaining will fire normally. About the only thing I can imagine them doing for the GL would be an interrupt. If a round fails to fire that barrel won't fire any more rounds until it is cleared. I'm sure they wouldn't be stupid enough to build a weapon system that will self-destruct... well, reasonably sure
vitalis6969
SOC-7
Can't say for the grenade launcher, and it does sound like a concern. The basic metal storm firearms advertised that a failed round is simply pushed out the barrel by the next one down the tube (fired by the bullet behind). Presumably those two rounds are next to useless for combat purposes but the remaining will fire normally. About the only thing I can imagine them doing for the GL would be an interrupt. If a round fails to fire that barrel won't fire any more rounds until it is cleared. I'm sure they wouldn't be stupid enough to build a weapon system that will self-destruct... well, reasonably sure
This... right here... ^^^^^^^ Mr. Burns nailed it out of the park.
The rounds behind will push, exploded barrels from a bullet blockage are rather overblown. As to the recoil, I never said it wouldn't have any recoil, but it is possible. Also, watch the metalstorm pistols firing, those rounds are downrange in a hail, certainly long before "half of the rounds" would be off target.
And think about it for 0-G. No moving parts, no magazines, nothing that you have to worry about in a 0-G environment. And don't talk about propellant in a vacuum, that is covered by using solid fuel.
Now, on to the 40mm launcher. Like any type of explosive round, there could be a fantastic reason to have all of the rounds going downrange at one time, or a barrels worth.
Same reason they train so hard to have batteries of artillery land every round in a salvo with the same time on target. The enemy has no time to react and get to cover.
The Mk 19 fires one round after another. So let's say your badguys are exposed in the open but spread out far more than the standard round will cover with its burst radius. You start firing, a certain amount of those baddies will be under cover after the first couple of rounds hit. Now, fire off an entire barrel at one time? That is several rounds landing at one time.
I'm not saying the metalstorm is a perfect system, or even viable in the real world. But lots of rounds landing at one time... yeah, that is tasty.
For example, the mark 19 has a rof of nearly six rounds per second, with a recoil issue from the blowback operated system. In semi auto mode it fires 1 round per pull of trigger, in full auto, just under six rounds per second but lets call it six for sake of ease.
Now, take a six barreled metalstorm grenade launcher with 30 rounds per barrel. (that was picked as an arbitrary number, it really doesn't matter for this example.) In single barrel semi auto, it fires one round per pull of the trigger, so same as mark 19. Now, in six barrel mode it fires 6 rounds per pull of the trigger, so same rof as mark 19 on full auto. Now, fire that metalstorm in full auto for a one second burst, per barrel the metalstorm's electric operation would be AT LEAST as fast as the Mark 19 blowback operation, and now you are talking a minimum of 36 rounds downrange in the same time the Mk19 fires six rounds.
And that is a whole lot more hurt at one time.
The advantage of the Mk19 is its belts, it would have a higher sustained damage over time because belts can be linked together for ever as long as you have the supply. But it has less short term flexibility.
Also, that Mk19 wont work in 0g with its simple blowback system, the electronically fired weapon will.
Why do you think Zero G would have any effect on a blowback type system? I would think that any type auto loading mechanism would work in zero gravity.
Also whether solid propellant or conventional case based cartridges, both will fire in a vacuum. The oxidizer is part of the propellant and needs no atmospheric oxygen to burn. That is why modern firearms will work underwater.
I would think that there is a very slight chance a gas operated autoloading mechanism might have some trouble in a vacuum.
The real trouble with firing a conventional firearm or a metalstorm in zero G is of course recoil. With that whole equal and opposite reaction thing coming into play.
The only real issue with a firearm functioning in a vacuum I can see would be one of lubrication and that could be avoided with a vacuum rated grease or graphite type lube.
As far as grenades stuck in the tube of a metalstorm launches, don't grenades only arm after a certain distance of travel reducing the likely hood of a blow up in the barrel?
R
Just realized an addional problem with firearms in a vacuum is cooling. Weapons may overheat uless there is some kind if heat sink. But heat would have more of an indirect effect on the mechanism and not be too much trouble for the first few rounds.
Also whether solid propellant or conventional case based cartridges, both will fire in a vacuum. The oxidizer is part of the propellant and needs no atmospheric oxygen to burn. That is why modern firearms will work underwater.
I would think that there is a very slight chance a gas operated autoloading mechanism might have some trouble in a vacuum.
The real trouble with firing a conventional firearm or a metalstorm in zero G is of course recoil. With that whole equal and opposite reaction thing coming into play.
The only real issue with a firearm functioning in a vacuum I can see would be one of lubrication and that could be avoided with a vacuum rated grease or graphite type lube.
As far as grenades stuck in the tube of a metalstorm launches, don't grenades only arm after a certain distance of travel reducing the likely hood of a blow up in the barrel?
R
Just realized an addional problem with firearms in a vacuum is cooling. Weapons may overheat uless there is some kind if heat sink. But heat would have more of an indirect effect on the mechanism and not be too much trouble for the first few rounds.
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Vacuum rated greases are not terribly good. And firing still produces enough heat to boil many of them.
Graphite lube isn't terribly good. A buddy of mine ruined a M1911 that way.
shadowcat20
SOC-12
For the GL maybe a larger projectile is launched that fragments out to a bunch of submunitions. As it leaves the barrel it breaks open into a dozen or so fin stabilized submunitions with booster rockets. They will all hit roughly the same area but will spread out making for a larger kill zone.
For the multiple round barrels make it an accelerator rifle type barrel. They start down the barrel with the magnets then the propellent kicks in. If there is a missfire the magnets have given it enough speed to pop out the barrel without blocking it. You do not need anywhere near as much power to fire them and if they are rocket propelled rounds that ignite once out the barrel then little recoil.
For the multiple round barrels make it an accelerator rifle type barrel. They start down the barrel with the magnets then the propellent kicks in. If there is a missfire the magnets have given it enough speed to pop out the barrel without blocking it. You do not need anywhere near as much power to fire them and if they are rocket propelled rounds that ignite once out the barrel then little recoil.
I have to point out that in a ship board action
I am going with the laser carbine... ricochets suck and laser don't have a recoil fr Z-G purposes.
I am going with the laser carbine... ricochets suck and laser don't have a recoil fr Z-G purposes.