General Battledress: Suits or Mecha?

[Tobias]

[EDIT] I should make the definition more clear and concise. Short version for the purposes of the poll:
If it is light enough you can move in it without power, it is a suit.
If it is too heavy to move in it without power, it is a mecha.
(And of course, it can be sort of in the middle.)

The original battle dress presented in LBB1 was a powered armor suit. It was something a human (or sophont, although that wasn't a topic in LBB1) could wear; light enough that you would not become immobile if its power went out. It was explicitly described as a powered version of a standard armor suit (combat armor). The powered elements enhanced the wearer's abilities, they did not replace them. Something like this:

In later editions, however, battle dress was more of a mecha. A roughly suit-shaped legged vehicle that was far too heavy to wear; the powered elements did not enhance or reinforce the wearer's movements, they translated them into actions by the BD's motivators.

So the question is: Which concept do people prefer and why?

(Another question is whether to say battledress or battle dress...)
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In tracking the various editions, I've come up with this partial list of how battle dress fits into this paradigm in each of them.

Classic Traveller (LBB1, LBB4): Suits.
Classic Traveller (AHL, Snapshot): Suits.
Classic Traveller (Striker): Mecha? They can carry 200 kg of equipment, and by inference weigh something in that ballpark (Striker lists no weight for armor).
MegaTraveller: Suits.
TNE: Mecha, ISTR they weighed hundreds of kilograms.
T4: Mecha. Same as TNE.
GURPS: More on the Mecha side, with a weight of ~120 kg. A sufficiently herculean character could maybe move in them without power.
T20: ? (Can someone look it up?)
Traveller HERO: ? (Can someone look it up?)
Mongoose: Similar to GURPS. Weigh 100 kg.
T5: Has both?

Overall, it seems like Traveller has abandoned the idea of battle dress as merely an enhanced form of combat armor as soon as intricate design systems (all going back to Striker, even though that did not yet extend the design system to personal armor suits) were developed. MT kept the original paradigm going, but IIRC no other system did.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Suits!, Battledress was modeled on the powered armor of Starship Troopers IMO.

 

[kilemall]

I would tend to build both.

To me BD as suit is miniaturized Mecha. As such there should mechs of the 2300 variety in earlier TLs that approximate the later tech suits, and higher tech Mecha that act as heavy support units.

Under no circumstances should they go the Gundam/Battlemech route.

 

[Tobias]

"Starship Trooper" suits actually fall very much in the "mecha" category. (Arguably, they spawned the very concept of mecha.) A fully kitted mobile infantry suit is said to weigh two thousand pounds in the novel.

 

[chipla]

Suits!, Battledress was modeled on the powered armor of Starship Troopers IMO.

Which Rico describes as making the wearer look like a steel gorilla - which puts them in the hybrid mecha-suit range.

I believe they’re also mentioned as weighing a lot somewhere in the book.

Fun fact the powered armour in Starship Troopers is the direct inspiration for Japanese mecha.

 

[mike wightman]

I prefer the concept that if your legs are in the suit legs and it moves in response to your leg movements it is a suit.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Which Rico describes as making the wearer look like a steel gorilla - which puts them in the hybrid mecha-suit range.

I believe they’re also mentioned as weighing a lot somewhere in the book.

Fun fact the powered armour in Starship Troopers is the direct inspiration for Japanese mecha.

Still waiting for their new 6th gen. stealth fighter to turn into a Giant fighting robot.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

If your legs are in the suit legs and it moves in response to your leg movements it is a suit.

What did he call the negative feedback ? It’s a suit.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

"Starship Trooper" suits actually fall very much in the "mecha" category. (Arguably, they spawned the very concept of mecha.) A fully kitted mobile infantry suit is said to weigh two thousand pounds in the novel.

Fighting robots with pilots is mecha… SST powered armor is a suit .

 

[chipla]

Still waiting for their new 6th gen. stealth fighter to turn into a Giant fighting robot.

I’ve been waiting for the Yamato to travel to Iscandar for decades

 

[Tobias]

If your legs are in the suit legs and it moves in response to your leg movements it is a suit.

If you want to make your own poll using that definition, go right ahead. But I'd appreciate it if people would actually answer this one under the definitions given in the OP.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

They have that awesome double barreled ship … can you imagine double spinal mounts?

 

[Meteoric Assault]

 

[Rupert]

Suits!, Battledress was modeled on the powered armor of Starship Troopers IMO.

The suits in Starship Troopers were not something you could move without power.

Me, I think they're on the borderline. Not really usable without power, but perhaps moveable, just. Small enough they can go where normal people can (though heavy enough you'd have to be careful of the floors in lightly built buildings), but not really trim enough to use normal folks' seating, etc.

But you wear them, not drive them, and that to me is the difference.

 

[mike wightman]

If you want to make your own poll using that definition, go right ahead. But I'd appreciate it if people would actually answer this one under the definitions given in the OP.

I did, you changed your definitions. I you wish to be snarky about it:
please give the mass of CT BD?
can you move in CT BD if the power runs out?

You do know that combat armour is powered but not augmented according to Frank Chadwick?

 

[Tobias]

I did, you changed your definitions.

I did not, I merely clarified them. But if that did cause confusion, just change your vote to mecha; I've included that option.

 

[mike wightman]

I don't see BD as mecha despite your "clarification"
'77 says
"Battle Dress— The ultimate in battle armor, military battle dress consists of a complete vacuum-suit-like array of metal, synthetic and electronic armor. The values given for protection using battle dress are for the basic suit, without electronic or other enhancements. Battle dress is strictly military, and not available to civilians in most circumstances. When available, base price is around CR 200,000 per suit. Vacc suit skill is required before an individual can even think of using battle dress. In the powered mode, battle dress doubles personal strength, and eliminates any endurance requirements or restrictions."
Does this indicate you can use it unpowered?

By '81 it looks like the definition of BD has changed, splitting it into two distinct armour types.

"Combat Armor (Cr20000; TL 11 1: Combat armor is a complete vacc-suit-like array of metal and synthetic armor. Combat armor is strictly military and not available on the open market; it is issued to troop units and elite mercenary battalions. Before combat armor can be worn, the user must have vacc suit skill-I or better."

"Battle Dress (Cr200.000; TL 13): The ultimate in individual protection, battle dress is an advanced and powered version of combat armor. Battle dress enhances the strength and senses of individuals wearing it with variable feedback personal controls, servo powered limbs, and various kinds of electronic assistance. The individual wearing battle dress is effectively doubled in strength and given unlimited endurance (for lifting, carrying, and fighting purposes; not for wounds received) and receives a DM of +2 for surprise."

 

[McPerth]

I prefer the concept that if your legs are in the suit legs and it moves in response to your leg movements it is a suit.

Thats more or less the same I was going to say.

To me, a mecha is where the pilot moves it through commands (more alike Mazinger Z), not by moving himself inside and the suit's servos making his own moves more powerful.

This also means that, unlike a mecha, if it's hit the wearer is too, as it is (more or less) user's size and there are no parts of it where a hit may go without some part of the user inside...

Needless to say, this puts me on the suits side...

 

[Condottiere]

Spacemarines probably could move unpowered powered armour, through sheer force of will.

 

[Tobias]

I don't see BD as mecha despite your "clarification"
'77 says

Sigh. (This was in the OP before any clarifications, just for the record.)