General Battledress: Suits or Mecha?

[Rupert]

Only because there is no higher TL item that is better, and modern artillery barrels are much higher tolerance than WWII era ones.

A10s and B52s are not WWII technology.

The B52 is a very good example of why a polity might not build at the latest TL. Firstly, the old airframes are still good, so no need to replace them. Secondly, while a much better 'B52' could be build today, the cost would be enormous and the old ones still do the job.

One thing that doesn't seem to have happened is ripping out the electronics and upgrading them, or the power plant. One possible reason is that most electronics in CT/MT don't improve much between TL-14 and TL-15 (some comms and a few sensors not usually used in combat vehicles get smaller - that's about it) and those that do get bigger (but replacing the power plant would make plenty of room).

But here's the thing - the Trepida grav tank was adopted by the Imperials in 1109, and the Astrin a few years later, both long after the Imperium officially reached TL-15. The Imperium made a concious choice to use TL-14 technology for their primary 'ground' combat vehicles. Presumably having a wider ranges of worlds they could buy from was considered more important than having the very best, at least by however got to make the final procurement decisions.

 

[mike wightman]

The B52 has had electronics updates, and power plant updates, and is currently undergoing yet another update.

The fluff that says the Trepida and Astrin are TL14 would mean every armoured Imperial Army unit in the FFW is wrong. So it can't be correct - authors got it wrong.

 

[Condottiere]

Tech level 15: Most infantry is by now equipped with battle dress and has converted to the FGMP-14. The gauss rifle remains the standard arm of non-powered troops.

Tech level 15: Gunships mounting rapid pulse X guns and heavier 7. guns are virtually in-distinguishable from orbital craft. Lower performance personnel carriers mount rapid pulse X and Y guns and missile systems

 

[kilemall]

Only because there is no higher TL item that is better, and modern artillery barrels are much higher tolerance than WWII era ones.

A10s and B52s are not WWII technology.

But they aren’t current either, just refitted.

If you count that as current tech, well likely a similar process for the Imperium.

 

[Badenov]

Only because there is no higher TL item that is better, and modern artillery barrels are much higher tolerance than WWII era ones.

A10s and B52s are not WWII technology.

The multiquote thing is not working for me, I apologize for not quoting everyone who's commented on this, because it's a thing I have a bit of knowledge about. B-52's were built at TL6 and as Mike points out, have been extensively upgraded. A currently flying B-52 is absolutely TL7 in almost every possible way apart from the side number. The A-10 was late TL6/early TL7, and while it hasn't seen as much upgrading as B-52, it's seen a fair amount. Modern aircraft like JSF or F-22 are late TL7 or maybe early TL8, but as has been pointed out, there is no current aircraft that do the missions B-52 and A-10 do (at least according to proponents of those old aircraft), which is why they are still in inventory.

The difference between RL and Traveller vehicles at old TLs is that the Traveller vehicles at old TLs don't always get (or really need) upgrades to make them current, and in fact the edge of plus or minus one TL is very thin in a lot of places. There's a few places where it's substantial, generally at great cost which encpourages people to settle for lower TL gear.

 

[kilemall]

I’m well aware of the B52 as example given that my grandfather was on the production line from B29 to B47 to B52 and my uncle participated in the H upgrade process.

Wouldn’t argue the current upgrade process and TL points. It’s a relevant example that could be considered a previous TL or not, and certainly one where similar changes are being made to an otherwise useful starship/vehicle hull to upgrade computers, weapons, etc.

 

[whartung]

there is no current aircraft that do the missions B-52 and A-10 do (at least according to proponents of those old aircraft), which is why they are still in inventory.

Turns out TL6 craft can launch TL8 weapons.

The B-52 is maintained partly because of the network effect. There's just simply a lot of weapon systems that are designed for the B-52, and modern ones are still being designed for them.

Some of that may be changing. They're still progressing on the "bomb truck" concept. Munitions pitched out the back of routine cargo craft from stand off range that then fly in and penetrate on their own. The nightmare scenario of 2 dozen cruise missiles coming out of a C-17.

Meanwhile, our TL7 bombers still need to drop weapons on TL5 and TL6 targets, so it's all good.

Military aircraft are routinely utterly dismantled and put back together again. The air frames are solid.

Modern B-52s are like my favorite axe, 2 axe heads, and 3 handles later.

 

[Condottiere]

Turning cargo aircraft into weapons delivery platform has always been an ambition.

We're not carpet bombing anymore.

The Boner and the Spirit cost more to operate, and the numbers of the Spirit qualify it as an endangered species.

So, like the Bear, the BUFF's longevity can be attributed to lack of will to find a suitable substitute.

Or, more likely, it's just easier and cheaper to refurbish them.

 

[Carlobrand]

Imperium's big and I can see where there'd be places they'd drag their feet on updating. The Spinward Marches and the Solomani Rim are not such places. I don't see a reason for the Imperium to field less-than-optimal equipment in sectors with decidedly hostile neighbors.

 

[whartung]

Imperium's big and I can see where there'd be places they'd drag their feet on updating.

If the threat warranted it, they'd upgrade. I don't think the Imperial Navy has a budget problem, they simply choose not too.

100 years is beyond generational. You have 3rd and 4th generation leadership in place by then, and those will have an impact on change and decision making.

 

[kilemall]

Turns out TL6 craft can launch TL8 weapons.

The B-52 is maintained partly because of the network effect. There's just simply a lot of weapon systems that are designed for the B-52, and modern ones are still being designed for them.

Some of that may be changing. They're still progressing on the "bomb truck" concept. Munitions pitched out the back of routine cargo craft from stand off range that then fly in and penetrate on their own. The nightmare scenario of 2 dozen cruise missiles coming out of a C-17.

Meanwhile, our TL7 bombers still need to drop weapons on TL5 and TL6 targets, so it's all good.

Military aircraft are routinely utterly dismantled and put back together again. The air frames are solid.

Modern B-52s are like my favorite axe, 2 axe heads, and 3 handles later.

B52 had an interim development mode people don’t know about from initial nuke drop, where they mounted 100 mile nuclear attack missiles (SRAMs). So I think if the current iteration as a fourth incarnation.

 

[Rupert]

The fluff that says the Trepida and Astrin are TL14 would mean every armoured Imperial Army unit in the FFW is wrong. So it can't be correct - authors got it wrong.

Or you don't need everything to be at the maximum TL for a unit to count as being that TL, Note it's not just fluff - the Trepida and Astrin are detailed in the Rebellion Sourcebook and several TNE products.

Note that if we go by what's in CT and take the view that a unit must have entirely TL-15 gear to be TL-15, then they can't be TL-15 and have body armour, because there is no TL-15 body armour. As this is clearly silly, we can only conclude, again, that units do not need to have all their kit be from their listed TL.

 

[Carlobrand]

Or you don't need everything to be at the maximum TL for a unit to count as being that TL, Note it's not just fluff - the Trepida and Astrin are detailed in the Rebellion Sourcebook and several TNE products.

Note that if we go by what's in CT and take the view that a unit must have entirely TL-15 gear to be TL-15, then they can't be TL-15 and have body armour, because there is no TL-15 body armour. As this is clearly silly, we can only conclude, again, that units do not need to have all their kit be from their listed TL.

Trepida: RF-X, armor 40, just enough armor to withstand typical infantry support weapons, vulnerable to everything down to the Plasma-A, and the gun could be stopped by anyone who built a tank with at least armor 67 - whatever they might choose to call it, this is a light tank. It is more than adequate for Imperial sectors that haven't seen a major war in centuries, where the military is mostly dealing with brushfire wars on rebellious little planets, so maybe it's appropriate to Rebellion Sourcebook, but if this is being considered a main battle tank then it rather reminds me of the CT Supplement 9 warships. Detailed or not, it is not something I would want to see trying to fight a serious opponent in the Marches or on the Solomani front. We can talk body armor all we want, but a tank needs to be worthy of the name.

 

[Rupert]

While I'm inclined to agree with you on the matter of its armour (the same as the minimum for a spaceship? really? But it's the same book that has a battleship with armour 40), it is there and with stats, and it's built at TL-14. The TNE version is rather better and is also built at TL-14, presumably to respect existing canon. So, whatever our opinion of the design might be, it's the canon late-classic/Rebellion era Imperial grav tank, and it's TL-14.

 

[aramis]

'Battledress' is an older term for a field uniform and accoutrements. It's use at high TLs for a suit of powered armour that's intended for wide use by infantry makes perfect sense, and is also a point of distinction for the game.

It's not even out of use... the 1980's/90's US Army field uniform was the Battle Dress Utility (BDU).

And at that point you should probably but grav drives in the thing so it has mobility competitive with that of other combat vehicles of that tech level range.

That's a standard of certain units of Battledress in canon.

And yet their unit counters in FFW are TL15 not TL14.

Why the TL15 Imperium would keep using TL14 equipment is beyond me, especially since they have been TL15 for a couple of hundred years militarily.

newer supercedes.

 

[Carlobrand]

While I'm inclined to agree with you on the matter of its armour (the same as the minimum for a spaceship? really? But it's the same book that has a battleship with armour 40), it is there and with stats, and it's built at TL-14. The TNE version is rather better and is also built at TL-14, presumably to respect existing canon. So, whatever our opinion of the design might be, it's the canon late-classic/Rebellion era Imperial grav tank, and it's TL-14.

Well, yes, but the Striker TL15 Imperial Marine APC is also canon.