I don’t agree at all with his parameters
General Battledress: Suits or Mecha?
- Thread starter Tobias
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mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
'77 and '81 LBB:1 have different definitions, '77 may be moveable with the power off, the wording of '81 suggests this is not the case since there is no mention of an unpowered/powered mode.
You will hate this bit. Technically a suit of BD is going to have a mass of 4000kg including packaging if bought as trade goods.
You asked "So the question is: Which concept do people prefer and why?" and I have told you my answer - a suit because you can move it by moving your legs.
You will hate this bit. Technically a suit of BD is going to have a mass of 4000kg including packaging if bought as trade goods.
You asked "So the question is: Which concept do people prefer and why?" and I have told you my answer - a suit because you can move it by moving your legs.
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I only hate that I wasted my time on this to begin with.
To be frank, I really don’t understand why you need to ask the question to begin with? Granted I am a pre-mecha generation.
mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
I prefer BD to be considered suits of armour.
A bit bigger than a person, a person being ~80l in volume the BD suit is at most 250l.
The BD trooper steps into the BD, with arms and legs in the arms and legs of the suit, which responds via feedback. Starship Troopers, Forever War, Downbelow Station, Expanse. I consider Iron Man's suit as depicted in the MCU to be too small, but the BD should be no larger than a suit of deepsea diver armour.
Mecha I consider to be vehicles, with the driver being in a workstation.
A bit bigger than a person, a person being ~80l in volume the BD suit is at most 250l.
The BD trooper steps into the BD, with arms and legs in the arms and legs of the suit, which responds via feedback. Starship Troopers, Forever War, Downbelow Station, Expanse. I consider Iron Man's suit as depicted in the MCU to be too small, but the BD should be no larger than a suit of deepsea diver armour.
Mecha I consider to be vehicles, with the driver being in a workstation.
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Ah, but it's vacuum-proofed, and therefore might count as 'vacc suits', and thus only mass/displace half a ton...
I mostly agree with you, but I imagine them smaller, a little bigger than a vacc suit. Miniaturized electronics and servos allow it to be so small (but quite heavier, as most are superdense materials)
I consider them a suit because a mecha would be built (Using Book 6 - Military Vehicles for Mg1, or whatever book is appropriate for the version you play). You can actually build, at TL12-15, a roughly human-sized mecha form-factor 'walker', at 2.5 cubic meters, which admittedly is larger than a human, though not egregiously so. But you can build something so much more effective than battledress.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Organic (heavy) armament might make the difference.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 1K
Battledress is "unpowered Combat Armor with extra Stuffs™" ... and Combat Armor IS a (vacuum sealable) Suit.
The extra Stuffs™ on Battledress include "powered exoskeletal assistance" making it easier to carry heavier loads per infantryman.
Unpowered Battledress has more mass/bulk than Combat Armor, so it's "heavier" and harder to move around in without power (see: Encumbrance Rules), but it isn't orders of magnitude "heavier" to the point of becoming an immobilized pillbox when it has no power.
Battledress and Combat Armor are both SUITS, for the purposes of this thread.
Unpowered Battledress is "heavier" and "more encumbering" than unpowered Combat Armor is, because Battledress has "extra Stuffs™" on it which are just dead weight when there is no power available for them.
The extra Stuffs™ on Battledress include "powered exoskeletal assistance" making it easier to carry heavier loads per infantryman.
Unpowered Battledress has more mass/bulk than Combat Armor, so it's "heavier" and harder to move around in without power (see: Encumbrance Rules), but it isn't orders of magnitude "heavier" to the point of becoming an immobilized pillbox when it has no power.
Battledress and Combat Armor are both SUITS, for the purposes of this thread.
Unpowered Battledress is "heavier" and "more encumbering" than unpowered Combat Armor is, because Battledress has "extra Stuffs™" on it which are just dead weight when there is no power available for them.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
A more interesting question, might be, who termed powered armour as battle dress?
It seems inherently confusing.
It seems inherently confusing.
coliver988
SOC-14 1K
the dress is a bit heavy...
I can see given the cost why people want battledress to be some kind of mecha, and in some versions apparently it is, but primarily what battledress is, is a mistake. Same level of protection as combat armor and a strength boost and recoil absorption feature you could accomplish with an exoskeleton frame - and if you made that a frame, you could take it off the wounded trooper and have some other combat-armored trooper step into it.
The price says it should be mecha, but the performance says it's just combat armor with a strength boost. For the price, I expect a lot more combat bang, and I expect correspondingly more armor protection. Instead I get a squad pack-mule/forklift with a light cannon, who is as vulnerable as every other member as his squad. Since the publication of Robots, there's nothing battledress can do that I can't accomplish at less cost with a donkey-sized robot walker with stout arms and a pintel-mounted weapon operated by a soldier standing or kneeling behind it - and the soldier would at least have partial cover.
The price says it should be mecha, but the performance says it's just combat armor with a strength boost. For the price, I expect a lot more combat bang, and I expect correspondingly more armor protection. Instead I get a squad pack-mule/forklift with a light cannon, who is as vulnerable as every other member as his squad. Since the publication of Robots, there's nothing battledress can do that I can't accomplish at less cost with a donkey-sized robot walker with stout arms and a pintel-mounted weapon operated by a soldier standing or kneeling behind it - and the soldier would at least have partial cover.
From the T20 Traveller's Handbook page 285.
Battle Dress
Large Augmented Armor
TL13, Cr71,655.2, 300vl.
Battle Dress is a suit of personal armor similar in construction to Combat Armor. What sets Battle Dress apart is the fact that it is fully powered, in effect being a personal vehicle that is worn rather than driven.
(Off Page) Battle Dress are made using the Vehicle Design Rules. An average human is considered to be 100vl and takes up 110vl (the cockpit) of the Battle Dress' 300vl.
Problem: The Poll says "Should Battle Dress be a Suit or Mecha?" (It is asking us for our opinions) and gives 3 options. I think the question should be "Is Battle Dress a Suit or Mecha?" with the same 3 options.
Going by the Polls question and the Definitions given in the OP, and using Battle Dress as described in T20, Battle Dress falls into the Mecha option, and thus I chose option 2, under definition 2 in the OP.
When I first read the description for Battle Dress in T20, I did note the difference from Battle Dress in CT, which I think was basically power assisted Combat Armor, which would fall under definition 1 in the OP.
Going by the many different Powered Combat Armors I've read in many novels and seen in movies, and looking at how Battle Dress is viewed in the many rule versions of Traveller, a good argument could be made for Battle Dress to fit into all 3 choices easily.
Stei'awtliyrl
SOC-12
I've always considered Battle Dress as a suit. With Mechs being an anthropomorphic (ish) vehicle. At early tech levels, however the engineering necessary to create a suit of powered armor with the capabilities of battle dress demand it to be more or less a Mech. Look at the loaders from Aliens as an example. However as Tech Levels get close to 14 (which is where the Plasma Rifle becomes a non-heavy weapon) battle dress really becomes more of a suit. The miniaturization of engines and power plants allow for a suit to be mobile (if awkwardly and exhaustingly so) when not under power. This progress also allows for more purpose-built Mecha designs, and as a result, Mecha grow larger evolving into the Gundams, Battlemechs and Destroids we're familiar with today.
I ran a very successful Traveller Hero game for a bunch of people who included several BattleTech diehards, and they firmly considered Trav Battle Dress a suit, not a mech, and there was one session where they debated the point for a while. But they play BattleTech by choice, what do they know?
Stei'awtliyrl
SOC-12
If we look at the Battletech Universe, I'd draw a distinction between Elemental armor as Battle Dress and the Battlemech as a Mech. Looking at the Robotech Universe, does this mean that the Zentraidi Battle Armor are just battle dress for giants?
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
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