General Battledress: Suits or Mecha?

[kilemall]

Kind of how I view the hostile environment/engineer type suits.

 

[spYke]

This is the Guges D from Appleseed

 

[Rupert]

I consider them a suit because a mecha would be built (Using Book 6 - Military Vehicles for Mg1, or whatever book is appropriate for the version you play). You can actually build, at TL12-15, a roughly human-sized mecha form-factor 'walker', at 2.5 cubic meters, which admittedly is larger than a human, though not egregiously so. But you can build something so much more effective than battledress.

If vaguely human-shaped, 2.5 m^3 means over 3m tall and over a metre wide. That means it won't fit through a standard doorway unless crawling and twisting, and it certainly won't fit in standard buildings without crawling. That's definitely in the 'small armoured vehicle' range, and at that point it has to justify the use of legs over wheels or tracks, and the fairly inefficient vertical shape - it's a specialist vehicle, probably for mountainous terrain, and not a heavy infantry substitute.

 

[Rupert]

A more interesting question, might be, who termed powered armour as battle dress?

It seems inherently confusing.

'Battledress' is an older term for a field uniform and accoutrements. It's use at high TLs for a suit of powered armour that's intended for wide use by infantry makes perfect sense, and is also a point of distinction for the game.

 

[spYke]

If vaguely human-shaped, 2.5 m^3 means over 3m tall and over a metre wide. That means it won't fit through a standard doorway unless crawling and twisting, and it certainly won't fit in standard buildings without crawling. That's definitely in the 'small armoured vehicle' range, and at that point it has to justify the use of legs over wheels or tracks, and the fairly inefficient vertical shape - it's a specialist vehicle, probably for mountainous terrain, and not a heavy infantry substitute.

This is not about realism, it is about simulating common SF tropes. There is no "realism" in a game about an huge interstellar polity with plans guns.

 

[Jame]

I always viewed mecha as being something like in Battletech. A tank sized walker vehicle.

Maybe just call battledress "power armor"?

 

[Condottiere]

The Japanese appear to have a loose definition.

Though if it was a requirement, I'd say it's a large vehicular robot.

 

[infojunky]

Suits!, Battledress was modeled on the powered armor of Starship Troopers IMO.

Nope the "suits" in Starship Troopers are Mecha under these definitions.

 

[Meteoric Assault]

Nope the "suits" in Starship Troopers are Mecha under these definitions.

Nope not buying that at all, and he set the false definitions after we were seven votes in. Don’t give me an apple and tell me to call it an Orange.

 

[infojunky]

This is the Guges D from AppleseedView attachment 5273View attachment 5274

Note in Appleseed there are the equivalent to Combat Armor and Battledress as well... Just Sayin...

Though buried in a notebook I have a TNE write-up of Tachikoma's as well.

 

[Tobias]

Again, this was in the OP from the get-go, without any clarifications:

I'm done with this thread otherwise, but I won't just let it stand when people lie about "changed definitions".

 

[infojunky]

Ok, the Traveller book gives Combat Armor a weight of 6kg. And Battledress one 20kg.

 

[Rupert]

Ok, the Traveller book gives Combat Armor a weight of 6kg. And Battledress one 20kg.

Enough that the only reason most people can wear BD is that CT has it that worn armour doesn't add to encumbrance. Interestingly, Vacc Suits do have encumbrance, so combat armour and battledress are pretty cool in that regard (though their descriptions lead me to believe that they do not come with air tanks by default, so those would add weight).

 

[kilemall]

Enough that the only reason most people can wear BD is that CT has it that worn armour doesn't add to encumbrance. Interestingly, Vacc Suits do have encumbrance, so combat armour and battledress are pretty cool in that regard (though their descriptions lead me to believe that they do not come with air tanks by default, so those would add weight).

I would think the vacc suit difference is more about them being bulky at lower TLs.

 

[Rupert]

I would think the vacc suit difference is more about them being bulky at lower TLs.

That applies to TL-13 suits vs battledress, but not TL-11 vacc suits vs combat armour, where the suit has encumbrance but the (presumably actually heavier and bulkier and more restrictive) combat armour does not. I suppose that's part of what makes the combat armour cost ten grand more than a vacc suit.

 

[kilemall]

That applies to TL-13 suits vs battledress, but not TL-12 vacc suits vs combat armour, where the suit has encumbrance but the (presumably actually heavier and bulkier and more restrictive) combat armour does not. I suppose that's part of what makes the combat armour cost ten grand more than a vacc suit.

I thought the vacc suits slimmed down per TL.

Yes that’s right, by TL12 they are 2kg, no weight and clothes by TL13, with cloth armor to boot.

 

[Condottiere]

If it weighs the same as plate or chainmail armour, it probably wouldn't be considered mecha.

 

[Vargr Breath]

I think BDUs and ODUs are your everyday uniform. But in CT they were always shown as the heavy armor suits with the teardrop helmets that look too large for use in ships corridors. A lighter set of armor (un-powered) would be better for VBSS and combat in ships (something like the Imperial Stormtroopers in Star Wars). The heavier powered armor could be called Heavy Assault Dress.

 

[Carlobrand]

Ok, the Traveller book gives Combat Armor a weight of 6kg. And Battledress one 20kg.

That's pretty light. Combat armor approximates Medieval plate, which ran 15-25 kg. depending on the size of the individual, but it's sealed to act as a vacc suit. At TL 11 it might be crystaliron, which is four times the strength of steel but slightly heavier, so about 19 to 30 kg. Could be something else. Maybe ballistic cloth and crystaliron combination to reduce weight. I'm guessing any kind of higher tech combat armor would have to be some sort of mixed material, 'cause a full superdense armor would be around 40 kg.

An interesting aside is that medieval plate varied in thickness, thickest at the front where arrows and lances and such would hit, thinner in the limbs, sides, and back. I'd bet they do something similar with combat armor.

 

[punkrabbitt]

Battledress is "unpowered Combat Armor with extra Stuffs™" ... and Combat Armor IS a (vacuum sealable) Suit.
The extra Stuffs™ on Battledress include "powered exoskeletal assistance" making it easier to carry heavier loads per infantryman.

Unpowered Battledress has more mass/bulk than Combat Armor, so it's "heavier" and harder to move around in without power (see: Encumbrance Rules), but it isn't orders of magnitude "heavier" to the point of becoming an immobilized pillbox when it has no power.

Battledress and Combat Armor are both SUITS, for the purposes of this thread.
Unpowered Battledress is "heavier" and "more encumbering" than unpowered Combat Armor is, because Battledress has "extra Stuffs™" on it which are just dead weight when there is no power available for them.

^ This is how I always saw it. Of course, I never progressed past Megatraveller and I remain a staunch fan of Classic Traveller, so that seriously colors my view.

If we look at the Battletech Universe, I'd draw a distinction between Elemental armor as Battle Dress and the Battlemech as a Mech. Looking at the Robotech Universe, does this mean that the Zentraidi Battle Armor are just battle dress for giants?

^ Are you meaning the basic combat armor the Zentraedi wear, or the larger Nousjadel-Ger and Queadluun-Rau Power Armor suits?

Anyway, aside from the quoted material above, I have always played Battle Dress as a man-sized, powered armor that is vacuum-sealed and allowed for faster movement and heavier payloads. The larger stuff I initially handwaved for rules, and later used the Megatraveller design system to create the heavy power armors from the Dorvack anime for use in my campaign.

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