Bay weapons

[Kharum1]

Hi all,
This may have been asked before but, I haven't seen it on the threads. What do you think of when you hear Particle Accelerator bay weapon? Or Meson Bay weapons? Is it a large fixed gun emplacement or several smaller weapons firing in unison?

Kharum1

 

[Gallowglacht]

I think one big one. Arranged in a torus to fit the bay and just the one emitter pointing towards the enemy.

 

[Kharum1]

Kinda like the old wooden ship with guns set for a broadside.

 

[Gallowglacht]

Kinda more like the big round particle acceleraters at places like CERN. This gives me the idea that mesons do not have to be accelerated linearly.
So arrange it in a corkscrew to save linear space and shoot particles out towards the enemy. This being traveller they are probably targeted by gravitics somewhere along the line.

 

[flykiller]

 

[Kharum1]

Nice. I was more interested as to their exterior appearance but, thanks for this.

 

[atpollard]

I pictured a 50 dTon bay as roughly a 9m cube (inside the ship) with a 9m x 9m flip up door covering it. I imagined multiple big weapons in each bay.

A 100 dTon bay is just twice as wide as a 50 dTon bay, so it holds more weapons.

 

[atpollard]

It might be an interesting alternative to construct Bay weapons as a giant turret (like the guns on a battleship), but I never imagined them like that.

 

[Kharum1]

I pictured a 50 dTon bay as roughly a 9m cube (inside the ship) with a 9m x 9m flip up door covering it. I imagined multiple big weapons in each bay.

A 100 dTon bay is just twice as wide as a 50 dTon bay, so it holds more weapons.

I invision missile bays that way but, PA and meson bays? I keep seeing scenes from Star Wars EIII as the two ships pass each other and the guns start blasting away.

 

[BetterThanLife]

Missile bays and other bays are pictured, in canon sources, as big turrets for at least part of that tonnage. Specifically the AHL, from Sup 5 and Sup 9, the Tigress and Atlantic from Supp 9 clearly have bays as turrets. On other ships they may or may not be bays, though on the Drednaughts they almost certainly are. On the other hand, the Fleet Escort has missile bays that are clearly not turrets. I would suggest that the bigger the ship, the more likely the bay is to be in or partially in a turret.

Remember that a 50 ton bay is only 1/10th of a percent of the ships volume for a 50,000 ton ship. A turret on a Scout ship is 1 percent of the available tonnage. Visible turrets on the capital ships are almost certainly bay weapons.

 

[aramis]

It might be an interesting alternative to construct Bay weapons as a giant turret (like the guns on a battleship), but I never imagined them like that.

The Giant Turret motif is what is used on the AHL plans (Supplement 5) It's thus canonical.

 

[Kharum1]

So you are saying that if a heavy cruiser has 30 bay weapons it will be covered with extremely large turrets. Ok then. Thanks for the help.
Kharum1

 

[BetterThanLife]

So you are saying that if a heavy cruiser has 30 bay weapons it will be covered with extremely large turrets. Ok then. Thanks for the help.
Kharum1

All things are relative. Even if the entire 50 tons is a turret, which in the AHL it isn't, it isn't all that big a turret compared to the ship. The Turret on a Scout ship is ten times the relative size of a 50 ton bay on a 50,000 ton cruiser.

 

[GypsyComet]

On smaller ships, a bay can almost be considered a "spinal" weapon, particularly if there is only one of them. The Zhodani Vlezhdatl is an example of this, and the RCES Clipper can easily be retro-fitted into older editions by calling its tiny spinal mount a "bay weapon".

Ultimately, it is architect dependent, but big turrets are certainly a very striking visual. Think of the big deck turrets on the Space Cruiser Yamato, vs the AA arrays on the superstructure's flanks and the Wave Motion Gun in the spinal position.

 

[Icosahedron]

FWIW, I see bay weapons primarily as large single guns, perhaps mounted in turret-like structures with a limited firing arc (or should that be cone?) - perhaps up to 45 degrees.
IIRC, the suggestion of multiple weapons was first made in LBB5 where it was suggested that a bay may be thought of as containing a number of turret weapons - but I took that as a mathematical convenience rather than a description of design and construction. (I can't seem to find the passage just now)
Since the contents of a weapons bay are easily swapped out, however, there is nothing to stop it holding an array of turret-size weapons; perhaps it would depend on the purpose - I can see an array of smaller weapons being more useful in targeting a fighter swarm, (grape shot) but a single gun having more use against capital ship armour (although the canon rules don't make that distinction in the combat results).

 

[Scott Martin]

TNE specified the dimensions of turrets, which generally resulted in a number of larg-ish (compared to turrets or barbettes) weapons in a single turret.

I had fun with a 1,000 dT PAW "bay" on a cap ship with (IIRC) a dozen 1,000 MJ PAW's mounted. Pretty much a bad day for escort class vessels, but TNE allows seperate targeting for each weapon in a bay if you have enough crew...

This was mostly designed to play with the TL effects of PAW focusing: the same PAW tunnel at TL-12 and TL-14 had a significant difference in effective range, making "refitted" cruisers a much "toothier" opponent than their more elderly bretheren.

Of course, since these ships were only used for "cinematic effect" I'm pretty sure I spent too much time in design-land. Of course I've been known to be obsessive about details at times

Scott Martin

 

[jec10]

And at least in CT/Striker, starship bay weapons are simply larger and more powerful versions of turret weapons, not multiples of them.

 

[atpollard]

From High Guard (CT Book 5, pg 30):

Bay Weapons: Weapons may be mounted in bays, large areas near the skin of the ship's hull. Bays are available in 100-ton and 50-ton sizes (the size indicates the tonnage required) and must be installed during construction. The weaponry in bays is easily removed and replaced by other bay weaponry as the need arises.

One bay (regardless of size) may be installed per 1,000 tons of hull available. Tonnage not otherwise allocated to weaponry is considered available. For example, a 50,000-ton ship might be assigned a 5,000-ton type A meson gun; it may install 45 bays in addition to the major weaponry.

Weapons bays cost Cr10.000 per ton; 100-ton bays cost MCrl; 50-ton bays cost MCr0.5. They need not be assigned any specified weaponry during construction.

Weaponry installed in bays may be of five different types: meson guns, particle accelerators, energy weapons (fusion and plasma guns), repulsors, and missile racks. The bay weapons table indicates the cost for one bay weapon and its energy point requirement. The table also cross-references tech level and weapon type. The number at the intersection is the factor used for the weapon on the Universal Ship Profile. All bay weapons of the same type on a ship must be identical. Each bay weapon is a battery. Weapons installed in bays may not be allocated for turrets.

Empty weapons bays may be put to a variety of uses, such as holding small craft (airlrafts, ATVs, fighters, pinnaces, etc), or storing cargo. Vehicles and craft may be carried in otherwise unused bays at 50% wastage (100 tons of bay holds 50 tons of vehicle or craft). A bay may launch one craft per turn. An otherwise unused bay may also be used to carry deadfall ordnance for planetary bombardment; such a bay is useless in battle, but is used to bombard worlds.

Although I recognize that official ships may have provided “bay weapons” as large turrets, the description in High Guard does not appear to suggest that. Especially the last paragraph.

 

[Kharum1]

And that is where the question comes into play. Is a bay weapon a large turret or a large weapon sitting in a hole in the ship?

 

[Gallowglacht]

Like most things it ultimately comes down to what you want. Even taking bays as holes in ships you can still rationalise turrets as housing the emmiters while the power machinery/ammo is house in the hull. Hence the wastage when you rip out the weapon and house a vehicle instead. You can use the internal bay, but the turret space is wasted.

Most of the bay can be in the hull and still leave room for "battleships in space" if you like the imagery.