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Battle-Class Ships: Design and Combat Discussion

robject

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TL;DR
  • BCS design is ACS plus Spines.
  • BCS combat is rock-scissors-paper.


BCS has a tabletop game. Marc has clearly stated a rock-scissors-paper preference for BCS combat (as well as wheels within wheels). "Get your assets where you need them before you enter weapon range", to quote Mike Wightman. "This is why planets and gas giants become choke points, and why the High Guard position is required to screen refueling ships."

Spine is King. Spines are clearly the superior weapon.

Battleships Are Tough. Unlike other ships, capital ships require multiple simultaneous crits to be Out Of Action.

Secondaries *Could* Kill. A valid strategy is to compromise a Capital ship's primary defenses, and then kill it with secondaries.



BCS Design is ACS + SpineMaker. The focus of BCS design is Capital Ships. Largely, the thing missing from ACS is the spine. Marc's drafted a couple versions of SpineMaker, and his firm opinion is that BCS design centers around the spine. ACS + SpineMaker = BCS Design.
  • Spine length maps to damage and power requirements.
  • Spine length implies minimum hull length.
  • Emplacement + Weapon + mods results in weapon range.
  • Ships are describable on a 3x5" index card
Spine Variety. Since combat is more than meson and PA guns, Marc's therefore extended the types of spine. He also wants to balance main weapons so that Spines are King, but Meson Spines are not the King of Kings.

Imperium-Style BCS Considerations
  • Start by defining Interstellar Wars period (TL 8 - TL 11)
  • Tabletop hexmap: 1 hex = light seconds
  • Planets get markers. GG. Mainworld.
  • Cards: secret weapon, hero admiral, mutiny!, traitor, lurking ships, boarding party, flawed decision, etc etc
Extended Thoughts
  • PA spine + Meson screen is a strong combination.
  • Assume meson screen rating == Armor factor.
  • You can't fire your meson gun when your meson screens are up.
  • Local naval bases are of potential use to invading naval forces.
  • Planetary assault is possible but easy to misjudge. :: Planetary defenses are difficult to coordinate.

Based on T5:

TLWeapon
8Missile spine or bay
8Fighter launcher
9Slug Thrower spine or bay (sr)
10Salvo Rack spine or bay (sr) (magnetic)
10KK Missile spine or bay
11PA spine or bay (magnetic)
11Plasma spine or bay (sr) (gravitic)


 
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These two are difficult to reconcile:

BCS Combat is not ACS combat. It's Strategic and Deadly. Marc has clearly stated a rock-scissors-paper preference for BCS combat. I think he wants a tabletop aspect, and he also wants cards which modify ship capabilities, and more.

Battleships Are Tough. This is the difference in BCS between Battlecruisers and everything else: They can take more than one hit.

Basically, to make the battleship viable it has to be defensively superior, and then combat turn into attrition.

Corollary: If you have one-shot kills, battleships are not viable.

But I have not seen the proposed system, so what do I know?
 
I'm just going to copy/paste this here from the other thread.

Rock paper scissors - but within rock there should be rock paper scissors, within paper there should be rock paper scissors, etc.
(and for deity of choice sake please have a mind to expanding to a tactical movement system beyond line up)
eg
turret weapons - good vs smaller vessels, moderate vs small capital ships, poor vs large capital ships
bay weapons - poor vs smaller vessels (overkill), good vs small capital ships, moderate vs large capital ships
etc.

Ship size classes become a rock paper scissors lizard spock

smallcraft, ACS, small capital, medium capital, capital
 
It's not clear to me, we have so many threads going on as it is.

It seems to me that here, you're discussing/trying to discuss a new combat system, rather than how ships fit in the current Universe.
 
Never mind that I'm not designing BCS. That doesn't mean I don't think about how it could be done.



Say, as Mike suggests, BCS starts out as High Guard's line-of-battle + reserve, its spines table, its layered defense model, and its Combat Result Tables (CRTs). What do we want to model that High Guard doesn't model?

- Planets and GGs as bottlenecks (again per Mike). High Guard positions for refueling. These appear to be positional. Perhaps strategic movement.

- Flanking maneuvers are movement rules, capturing an advantageous position during the fight. I suppose they could be the same as initial positioning during the opening moves of the game, or initial placement. Consider the chapter in Agent of the Imperium, when the intruder squadron was popping into existence all over the map. The defender had his pieces already on the map.

- Mass fire effects



Possible features:
  • Multiple locations, each with a line + reserve, and rules for moving between locations.
  • Marc's SpineBuilder
  • T5's CommCaster mass-fire rules, adapted as needed
  • The layered defense model
  • Combat Results Tables in some form

In short, it's still High Guardian -- still a high amount of statistics and predictability. Not necessarily a bad thing.
 
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The "feel" for traveller, which is very hard to manifest, is the problem of delayed intelligence. It's hard to know where you're going and what to do when the speed of communication is slower than you are. An operational fleet is always the "last to know" about anything outside of their system.

I admit to not having played a lot of the tactical rulesets against anyone. It's very hard for me to solo play that. And the games are complicated enough to make it difficult to just pick up casually, even on the dining room table. For example, one of the key points in the game Battle Rider is the idea that your ships start out as unknown blobs to your opponent, and only after closing, and lock on, can you reveal what the ships are (most of the systems have this aspect). BR improves on it by letting the Fleet Tactics skill give you extra blobs that represent nothing. These are like concealment counters in Squad Leader. But once scanned, they're removed from the game. When a ship is out of sensor lock, it can create a new unknown blob.

But it's hard to solo play that. And once the ships spot each other, it's game on, lasers flying, shoot shoot shoot until you can't shoot no more. Only through practice, I think, can you get the nuance of the ECM game that underlies everything. But, in the end, they all feel to me, to get washed out. That in the end, as I've mentioned several times before, it's riflemen in a bull ring with no cover shooting at each other.

And that just reduces the game to range and firepower and who gets the lucky hit first.

When reduced to that, High Guard is perfect. It's just washes away all of those other mostly irrelevant details, lines the ships up against each other and blast away. Simply, it's not clear to me that all of the ECM and lock ons and scanners and such affect the outcome enough to be worth the trouble, especially in a larger engagement. One on one? Maybe. BatRon on BatRon, probably not.

Which makes Traveller combat high level, and strategic, at the FFW level. Now the individual ships matter less and less compared to the overall force. Bringing my 10 Factors Of Combat against your 7 Factors of Combat, roll the dice and see who wins. Basically, a Risk style system. Abstract combatants vying for territory.

As suggested by my simple example of the 10 battle riders against the Tigress, what matters most in the game is the number of spinals you bring, not so much the ships that bring them. It was pretty shocking how little the Tigress itself "mattered". In fact, those BR would have a harder time killing each other than the Tigress, just because of its size.

Obviously that's a contrived situation, made explicit due to the combat system, the absolute advantages of TL15 and armor, etc. At TL14, the game changes dramatically. All of a sudden a zillion missiles are meaningful. They don't "kill" ships, they just make them combat ineffective.

But, anyway, at the higher level, the guiding factor is jump delay. Simply, when a fleet arrives in system, the defender can not react for 2 weeks. They would need to send someone out to get help and then that help needs to come back. Obviously, you can have a fleet that Just So Happens to show up a week later, but that's not reactive.

But jump delay limits communications and response times, and it's mostly impossible to do in normal game just due to the limitations of cognition and mechanics. If you have 1 person per fleet, 1 overall commander, and everyone going through a gated messaging system, THEN you'd have a very good feel for what campaigning in the Traveller universe is like. But I don't have 20 friends that probably would like to play that and it likely wouldn't be much fun for many since they may just be stuck in a system, alone, waiting for someone to come to them (either a message or an enemy fleet). Just boring game play.

FFW tries to make do with the plotting. I really should play that some more to get a better feel for it.

One way to do that is to define a line + reserve at each "location", and define rules for movement between those locations.
The locations are simple: the main worlds and the gas giants. I think that simply changing FFW instead of a system per hex, you have a destination box for each gas giant, and the main world. "Points of interest", essentially. Because, in the large, realistically, a fleet can move between the boxes in a weeks time. It's close enough to a week to get from Earth to Jupiter using an M-Drive. The rules would simply be (with perhaps special rules for some systems as a call out) but basically that movement between boxes within a system takes "a turn" (i.e. a week), but costs "no fuel" (because you can run a 6G M-drive with a 9 volt battery). But if you want to go from hex to hex, that costs a turn AND fuel. Combat is within the "boxes". At that point, the combatants can line up their "line" and "reserve", and let fly.

If two fleets move to each others box (i.e. fleet A is at the gas giant, and fleet B at the main world, and fleet B moves to engage A and vice a versa), then they fight "in space", and get to choose the box they wish to be in if they win the combat. The difference between the two is, for example, there's no fixed defenses. Notably, if you attack a planet, it can have static defenses (ye olde deep meson sites) that contribute to the defenders forces. But if you engage "in space", obviously you don't get that. Which suggests that the defender may wish to simply wait for the attacker to come to them. And, of course, you can move from box to box using jump, which costs fuel, then there's no engagement.

There's nuance in some kind of escape mechanic. I would simply point that fueled ships can escape (i.e. jump) after any combat round. Or, perhaps any round that they do not fire, giving the other party a "free shot" as they leave.

Reserve ships "don't fire", so they're always free to leave (assuming they're fueled). Fueling happens AFTER combat. So, if a fleet jumps in tanks dry, they need to clear the box to refuel. There would need to be some rule that riders can only dock if they don't fire. So, a rider fleet would take two rounds to jump. Seems fair enough. Rider, however, don't suffer any disadvantage offensively. There's no "delay" in deployment. They have lot of time to see the forces coming and clear their moorings.

And..that's it. After that just need mechanics to build Combat Factors in to Units that can move across the stars and details about how they are flung against each other. Whether that's some formula based on HG stats, or something way abstract like Pocket Empires is pretty moot at that point.

It would be nice to know how the fleet factors from FFW were achieved. I think FFW with extra boxes per system would be fine.
 
First: Whartung, thank you for that useful and thoughtful response.

I remember Mike Wightman(?) and others pondering the counters from Fifth Frontier War, and vaguely (sooo vaguely) recall them concluding that the attack rating is related to the number of spines in the squadron, plus or minus based on whatever.

From your perspective, then, Traveller ship battles kind-of boil down to Fifth Frontier War. You suggest drilling down into the hex just a bit, in order to capitalize on Traveller's interests: in particular, drilling down to the chokepoints in the system.



That's a Fleet Combat System -- and perhaps Yet Another Thread.
 
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Here's a High Guard-like route with less data. I'm putting it here so you can poke holes in it, because I'm no good at evaluating this stuff.

Assume

Assume you care about capital ship squadrons.
e.g. Assume you're much less interested in a 10,000t cruiser and its support, fighting a brace of 1000t destroyers and their support.

Concept

Assume the level of granularity is at the Capital Ship level. Design a BCS Capital ship, where its auxiliaries and supporting ships are design choices in the capital ship design itself. You design its spine. You select the spine of the supporting cruisers or frigates. You balance its major weaponry, ortillery, screens, point defense, escorts, troop count, fighter wings. And indicate whether it's operating alone, or with its brethren.

Those choices boil down to one 3x5 card for that Battle-Class Ship squadron. Put the defenses down the left edge, and offenses down the right edge. It fights as a unit, and takes damage, but the fact that it's actually many hulls is below the granularity of the design system.

==> OK yes, that's Battle Rider, isn't it?

Therefore, combat is at a squadron-rating level. However, since the design system is a Rich Decision Making Environment, there's a lot of ways that design could go. BUT, all of those values are meaningful; the system removes any decisions that don't matter so much. Do you pick 30 bays or 32 bays? Doesn't matter. Do you pick Particle Accelerators or Missiles? That matters.

Combat still resembles High Guard: you're penetrating multiple defenses from each attack. There's a crit table. It probably has gradual damage. But, presumably, there would be less noise: you make fewer meaningless choices.

It still works for non-capital squadrons. The data is more abstract but still there. Your squadron card will be weaker, and missing the primaries, and works as usual.
 
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Assume you care about capital ship squadrons.
e.g. Assume you're much less interested in a 10,000t cruiser and its support, fighting a brace of 1000t destroyers and their support.
Philosophically, this is problematic much like saying "We care about tank battles but we'll ignore infantry and airpower". As some others are learning painfully, combined arms is an important topic. If you're going R-S-P, then you need to bring them all to the front.
Therefore, combat is at a squadron-rating level. However, since the design system is a Rich Decision Making Environment, there's a lot of ways that design could go.
As learned from High Guard, this is pretty much the ONLY decision making environment. The vast majority of HG battles are decided when the fleets come out of jump, there's just the details of how much it's going to cost.

If you have a combined arms component then not simply ships design, but fleet design becomes important. That's less so, it seems, in HG because of the independence of the ships.

Consider the game play. "Present your ship to have the stuffing beat out of it." That's, like, step one of the game. Detach your ship from everything else and put it front and center to be hammered flat.

"NEXT! THANK YOU!"

If you're designing "squadrons", how are those much different from "big ships"?

Consider the Tigress. Fighter carrier, Missile source, point defense platform. "Everything". Contrast to a "squadron" with a beam cruiser, a light carrier, and some defense escorts. How does that play any different?

Consider (of course, I always go there...) SFB. Something that you COULD do, but was very rarely done, was "stack your fleet". You could put the entire fleet in to a single hex and fly it around like a "big ship". Power everything the same, keep the same speed, make the same turns. Stack of 3 Fed CAs and you've got 18 phasers and 12 Photon Torpedoes running down your throat, not an insignificant threat.

But, in play, in action, this was very rarely done. Fighters tended to stack a bit, but not the ships. The ships were more dangerous spread a bit apart. This was made more explicit when SFB introduced the "War Cruiser", a very powerful, yet lighter ship. CA firepower on a light cruiser hull, and a balanced power setup. Could dish it out, but not really take it. However, they were powerful and "cheap" enough that if you just took several of those ships, you could dominate the playfield. SFB made rules pretty much explicitly against just taking a bunch of war cruisers. "Oh great, another cloud of D5s."

But maneuver was a very important concept in SFB. Much, much less so in Traveller.

Obviously one way the squadron differs from the Tigress in that a single hit doesn't take out the entire shebang all at once. One hit can kill a Tigress. Your 500K tons and 380BCr are now just wasted space, cooling in space. So, that alone may be enough. Have to bring a balance of hulls to the fleet.

Consider a WWII battleship. Notably, these ships could just Take It. Bombs, guns, shells, torpedoes. Water tight compartment, blow out ammo storage, lots and lots of armor. Graceful degradation over time unless you had the misfortune of painting "HMS Hood" on the side of your boat.

In traveller, crits kill ships. Get rid of the "one shot one kill" results, and now you're grinding it down. But the problem there is the gameplay isn't very fun. Consider, again, my simple 7500 ton BR. It has 2 weapons. 1 J rated meson gun, and 3 batteries of 30 Beam Lasers, 3 factor 9. That's a total of 21 weapon hits. The Tigress, with its 480 missiles, was hitting at about 6% weapon hits. So, 350 missiles to clear off one ship.

That's flat out a lot of dicing and rolling and stuff like that. The tigress itself is pushing a 1000 weapon hits. Oh my heavens.

But, it's BIG, it's supposed to soak damage. That's the whole point of big-ness! But from a playability POV? Doesn't sound really fun to me.

So, we get crits to kill. To speed up play. That can perhaps be done better. Make a ship more susceptible to catastrophic damage as it take more damage. Perhaps if you take XX% damage, you have an XX% chance of a hit being catastrophic and ship killing. Right off, things are peachy. Take 25% damage, you have a 1 in 4 chance of getting killed -- by anything. Perhaps that's too aggressive, but it has to feel better than a one hit wonder like the Tigress. (To be fair, it took one hit, but that resulted in 20 damage points...still a bit abrupt).
 
If you're going R-S-P, then you need to bring them all to the front.
What I'm hearing there, is that we need to bring differentiation to the front. One thought Marc had was that the PA Spine is still useful even after the Meson Spine comes into its own. Similar ideas can add layers. Your Tigress is no longer the undisputed queen of the hill.

If you have a combined arms component then not simply ships design, but fleet design becomes important. That's less so, it seems, in HG because of the independence of the ships.
Both of those sound right.

If you're designing "squadrons", how are those much different from "big ships"?
You're right. What I'm thinking, is that it gets a lot of *battle churn* out of the way, in order to shove in some more strategically interesting options... but without abstracting all the way up to 5FW.

Consider the Tigress. Fighter carrier, Missile source, point defense platform. "Everything". Contrast to a "squadron" with a beam cruiser, a light carrier, and some defense escorts. How does that play any different?
Since High Guard-like things aren't really movement related (like Battle Rider), we have to have more interesting options than simply 18th century British infantry lining up with their muskets and firing in a line.

But, [the Tigress is] BIG, it's supposed to soak damage. That's the whole point of big-ness! But from a playability POV? Doesn't sound really fun to me.

So, we get crits to kill. To speed up play. That can perhaps be done better. Make a ship more susceptible to catastrophic damage as it take more damage.
Something like that. I was thinking of lining up the defensive ratings on one side, and attacks would have to roll to overcome each one. Damaging the ship could take out one of those defensive rows, thereby making it easier to damage the ship next time. Somehow the crit would be injected in there. Maybe the attack would have to exceed the last defense by some number.
 
That's flat out a lot of dicing and rolling and stuff like that. The tigress itself is pushing a 1000 weapon hits. Oh my heavens.

But, it's BIG, it's supposed to soak damage. That's the whole point of big-ness! But from a playability POV? Doesn't sound really fun to me.
Statistical Combat Resolution from TCS takes care of the dice. A few capital ships fighting will basically only roll for spinals, the rest is just applying the statistical results without rolling. That alone makes HG the only Traveller system that can fight capital ships without simplifying away all the detail.


MgT2 takes a similar route for larger engagements, but removes the one-shot kills to go full attrition. That makes battleships quite difficult to kill, and quite viable.
 
Oh my I really do need to post those CT/HG rules. Among other things maneuver matters and the dierolls can be reduced by several factors, and fighters/ACS can have a role.
 
For spinal mounts, it probably depends on damage versus resource utilization, whether damage, volume, personnel, cost, and stuff that's indirectly related, such as industrial base.
 
Statistical Combat Resolution from TCS takes care of the dice.
"Statistical Combat" Is. Not. Fun.

There's a reason you have games that use Battalions as their base unit, yet I only have to roll 1 set of dice to see if my Infrantry Battalion in the woods beat your Tank Battalion. The "statistics" are already baked in.

Firing 1000 weapons on a Tigress is exhausting. Simply taking the Tigress and pointing it at your cruiser and saying "scrape of 10 weapons and 5% fuel" without even rolling the dice, is not interesting. When I take my 100 armies in Risk against your 10, we already know who's going to win. But that doesn't mean the defender is not going to giggle every time they roll 6's and drain the attacker of one more unit during their desperate defense.
 
There's a reason you have games that use Battalions as their base unit, yet I only have to roll 1 set of dice to see if my Infrantry Battalion in the woods beat your Tank Battalion. The "statistics" are already baked in.
^ Memoir '44 is a superb example of massed units operating as one thingy.

Memoir seems to be at (roughly) the same level of abstraction as Fifth Frontier War.
 
It seems one BIG thing about Traveller navy ship combat is that you've "designed the squadron yourself". In designing combat ships, you're exploring the design space by blowing it to bits and blowing other things to bits.

This can be, ought to be, satisfying to some degree.

Now we have known for a long time that the Spine is the decider in naval combat. We might not like that, and we might want to temper that, but the Spine is King for some definition of "King".

One that is supreme* or preeminent** in a particular group, category, or sphere.
*supreme: Greatest in importance, degree, significance, character, or achievement.
**preeminent: Superior to or notable above all others.

THEREFORE, to the degree that the spine is superior to all other weapons, one could say that "designing ships for naval combat" is really about designing the spine. The rest, as they say, is commentary.

So we can already reduce (most of) High Guard design to Spine Tenders.
 
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So we can already reduce (most of) High Guard design to Spine Tenders.
Spinal mounts are great against single targets.
They're not so good against swarms of multiple targets.

Measure vs Countermeasure

When the basket can be stolen from you, don't put all of your eggs into the one basket.

This is where having lots of "cheap" spinal mount ships for the same price as a single "expensive single" spinal mount ship starts becoming a decisive factor in planning, procurement, tactics and strategy. So there's definitely a way to compete with different "angles" on the spinal mount issue (quantity having a quality all of its own, or so the saying goes).

Engineering is all about compromises.
Getting the most bang per buck is merely one of those compromises (there are plenty more).
 
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