Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
Saying that a current US city needs to be demolished is more than a bit out of line in my view.
Non OTU: Best City for the Apocalypse?
- Thread starter savage
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Saying that a current US city needs to be demolished is more than a bit out of line in my view.
I said play nice. Your taking it out of context with previous statements. Have you been there lately? Clearly not. Would you like me to help you understand what Detroit would be good for? It has limited 3rd party parts auto manufacturing facility outside of the city. Subs that sell to the auto manufacturers. And it has big 3 research facilities. And that's about it. U of M is not in the metro. This is not going to help standup a new civilization. GM, once Fortune "1", abandoned it's offices and fled into a modern hotel building on the river. Shall I comment on a few other cities to make you feel better?
I think you'd be happier on another, non T2k, thread. Have a nice day.
DETROIT:
Sorry if I started something that led off topic. Let me try to help.
Hopefully, I can make a statement without violating board policy (against claiming expertise) but ... some structures can be rehabilitated and some structures cannot. People exist who are called upon to occasionally make that call and the decision can be driven by two criteria.
1. sometimes, water infiltration beyond the envelope of a structure over time has rendered it structurally unsafe or so badly decayed that rehabilitation is a meaningless exercise ... replacing every rotted board in a wooden house may result in a structure in which only the brass house number is original.
2. sometimes rehabilitation is physically possible, but is actually more expensive than simple demolition and rebuilding a new structure.
Wooden houses and flat roofed commercial structures are particularly vulnerable to damage beyond the point of rehabilitation. Sadly, much of the urban housing stock in the 'rust belt' appears to be in this condition. Including Detroit.
While I do not have the exact figures handy, I believe the population of Detroit has fallen from a peak of somewhere around 1.7 million to a projected stable population of 400,000. That is a lot of empty structures just because no one is living there.
I mentioned Detroit partially in jest and partially because it is a modern area that actually is surviving an 'apocalypse'. Whatever the reason, the end result of rapid depopulation will have certain impacts on an area. Detroit is having to deal with that reality and offers people pre-toughened for your Nuclear Winter or Zombie Hoard.
###
I have a friend who is a retired career Marine (Master Sergeant, I think) who recently visited some friends still living in Detroit (and not the better area). He told about walking 10 blocks to a Music Store to order a CD and requiring his Marine training and knife to get home with his wallet and life. He said he would not go out at night ... his knees are just getting too old for that crap.
Those are the people that I want to rebuild MY civilization, thank you very much. Ooh Raahh!
Sorry if I started something that led off topic. Let me try to help.
Hopefully, I can make a statement without violating board policy (against claiming expertise) but ... some structures can be rehabilitated and some structures cannot. People exist who are called upon to occasionally make that call and the decision can be driven by two criteria.
1. sometimes, water infiltration beyond the envelope of a structure over time has rendered it structurally unsafe or so badly decayed that rehabilitation is a meaningless exercise ... replacing every rotted board in a wooden house may result in a structure in which only the brass house number is original.
2. sometimes rehabilitation is physically possible, but is actually more expensive than simple demolition and rebuilding a new structure.
Wooden houses and flat roofed commercial structures are particularly vulnerable to damage beyond the point of rehabilitation. Sadly, much of the urban housing stock in the 'rust belt' appears to be in this condition. Including Detroit.
While I do not have the exact figures handy, I believe the population of Detroit has fallen from a peak of somewhere around 1.7 million to a projected stable population of 400,000. That is a lot of empty structures just because no one is living there.
I mentioned Detroit partially in jest and partially because it is a modern area that actually is surviving an 'apocalypse'. Whatever the reason, the end result of rapid depopulation will have certain impacts on an area. Detroit is having to deal with that reality and offers people pre-toughened for your Nuclear Winter or Zombie Hoard.
###
I have a friend who is a retired career Marine (Master Sergeant, I think) who recently visited some friends still living in Detroit (and not the better area). He told about walking 10 blocks to a Music Store to order a CD and requiring his Marine training and knife to get home with his wallet and life. He said he would not go out at night ... his knees are just getting too old for that crap.
Those are the people that I want to rebuild MY civilization, thank you very much. Ooh Raahh!
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DETROIT:
Sorry if I started something that led off topic. Let me try to help.
... That is a lot of empty structures just because no one is living there.
I mentioned Detroit partially in jest and partially because it is a modern area that actually is surviving an 'apocalypse'. Whatever the reason, the end result of rapid depopulation will have certain impacts on an area. Detroit is having to deal with that reality and offers people pre-toughened for your Nuclear Winter or Zombie Hoard.
...
Those are the people that I want to rebuild MY civilization, thank you very much. Ooh Raahh!
Brilliantly put at pollard. Thanks for stepping in. Being from Chicago/Milwaukee spawl i found myself working in Detroit in the rebuild hayday. Sadly, economic conditions have floundered the city. Perhaps not as bad as Damascus present day but still it is the prefect example of a city with a single industrial economic stream hitting a wall and loosing morale. (unofficial motto "Detroit where the weak are eaten") Can it come back, sure! Will it? Hope so, but it doesn't matter to this thread. Nor are we intending to abuse it and it's residence. Some are my friends, old co-workers, etc. This is suppose to be a positive mind exercise. Our task for post-apocalyptic T2k is to evaluate the present situation in various cities to see which would be the best for a civilization rebirth. And everyone is welcome to "positively" participate.
Also, I have done residential rehab not commercial. It's all about structural integrity. If the building sustains element damage for an extensive period of time the cost (materials, time) skyrockets. This can be seen in some historic properties preservations as perfect examples. Most places go up in cost after 5 years of neglect.
T2k, Morrow Project, Gamaworld, Shadowrun, etc have some pretty dark undertones which can make discussing the comparatives to modern day dicey. It requires thick skin.
I thought about this thread after watching "Dawn of the Planet of the Apes". Gary Oldman, Dreyfus, says "We built this place...". He's referring to a covered mall and office building with defenses in SanFran. Like a castle in the rubble. Many other films, "I am Legend", "Omega Man", the original Planet of the Apes films, don't show us a city 15 years +/- after the collapse. In "Reign of Fire" dragons wipe out everything leaving little to rebuild, "Pacific Rim", "Cloverfield" and "Godzilla" monsters crush cities below their paws. In zombie invasions the characters may not be able to easily escape, "I am Legend", "Land of the Dead" shows us people not even trying to leave but fighting for what they have.
Pick the disaster scenario, pick the city you'd want to restart civilization and tell us why or how?
Large swathes of Detroit proper are in fact already legally condemned and abandoned, and by law are marked to be demolished.
It's a border-of-the-line case, and given that it's relevant and polite, and specifically not discussing the causes. I'm letting it slide. (I've family in and around Greater Detroit Metro area. Dad's from Wyandotte.)
It's very interesting in the areas where the wildlife is reclaiming formerly urbanized land... Racoons living in former apartments and the like...
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
There are some urban areas in the Mid-West where the number of raccoons per square mile is over 640, or better than one per acre. It has to do with food availability and denning places. The last estimate I saw for coyotes in the city of Chicago proper, not the whole metropolitan area, was over 200. Again, food availability and denning areas. A sub-division to the north of me, where the developer went bankrupt, leaving a large number of unfinished town homes has been basically taken over by coyotes, raccoons, opossum, and skunks.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I will drop the subject.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Location, infrastructure, society conditioned to cooperate and collectively prepped.
Access to food, water and energy.
Easily defensible, and geographically based for eventual expansion.
There actually is a place called Interlaken.
Access to food, water and energy.
Easily defensible, and geographically based for eventual expansion.
There actually is a place called Interlaken.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlaken
Not too far from Bern. Yeah, that is why this region of Europe is attractive. These communities may try to colonize a local city before it's too late and the industry is irreversibly damaged. They could stretch only as far as Bern or go for Geneva, Zurich, and even Munich, Venice or Milan. This has many of the reasons I felt Munich was a good catch. As survivors flock to an area the question becomes when should spin off colonies be established. If you had 5000 survivors it might be ideal to form a country with groups of 500 colonizing different areas.
That concept would be based on preserving/ rescuing materials more than a need for expansion. "Smash and Grab" raids on different locations for materials might also work. The USSR stripped East Germany after WW2. However, stripping can be time consuming without a large force. Munich is in the middle of a number of influential major cities; Bern, Milan, Venice, Vienna, Prague, and Frankfurt.
Another question might be when are you big enough to colonize? Even a small town can support 5000 people, but is it wise.
:coffeegulp:
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I guess situation may vary quite a lot depending on which kind of disaster reduced Earth population.
A nuclear war, por example, is likely to destroy many infrastructures and to hit harder civilian population tan military one (as the latter uses to be better prepared). That would leave a devastated world with a higher tan usual military, with all the good or bad things this may bring.
OTOH, something like a pandemic (think on Spephen King's Apocalypse) is likely to leave most infrastructures intact, just lacking prepared workforce to be run, and to hit equally civilian and military population. This is quite a different situation than the nuclear war.
Other catastrophes will hav their own particularities.
In both cases cities ae likely to be evacuated/deserted in the first phase, in the first case because th risk of being targeted or (if already been) radiation. In the second case the risk of plagues due to unburied corpses; and in both cases becasue the lacking of transport would deplete quite soon the city stores and you have better possibilities in smaller towns with hteir own food producing and less dependnet on outside ressources (food, power, oil, etc.).
In a socond phase, people is likely to return to cities in search of what ressources (any kind) remain there, once the danger has (at least) diminished. What will they find would be in state of disrepair, but probably salvageable (more so in the case of a pandemic than a nuclear war).
A nuclear war, por example, is likely to destroy many infrastructures and to hit harder civilian population tan military one (as the latter uses to be better prepared). That would leave a devastated world with a higher tan usual military, with all the good or bad things this may bring.
OTOH, something like a pandemic (think on Spephen King's Apocalypse) is likely to leave most infrastructures intact, just lacking prepared workforce to be run, and to hit equally civilian and military population. This is quite a different situation than the nuclear war.
Other catastrophes will hav their own particularities.
In both cases cities ae likely to be evacuated/deserted in the first phase, in the first case because th risk of being targeted or (if already been) radiation. In the second case the risk of plagues due to unburied corpses; and in both cases becasue the lacking of transport would deplete quite soon the city stores and you have better possibilities in smaller towns with hteir own food producing and less dependnet on outside ressources (food, power, oil, etc.).
In a socond phase, people is likely to return to cities in search of what ressources (any kind) remain there, once the danger has (at least) diminished. What will they find would be in state of disrepair, but probably salvageable (more so in the case of a pandemic than a nuclear war).
In The Stand, the bad guys repopulated Las Vegas with a nuke.
In Deep Impact, the eastern seaboard is washed away. City, inland, high floors "might" hold some survivors. Fact is you need to choose a city and a disaster.
Asteroid hit, tactical Nuclear War: Minneapolis. Sure, if someone drops a bomb off a strategic ICBM its going to get hit "just because", but it has little military value. 15 years later repopulating it because it had lots of medical facilities. Survivors held up in Mall of America from Zombie plague. I wonder how longer her diesel generators are set to last. :rofl:
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
France might be the safest place during a vampire outbreak.
And why so?
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Garlic.
On a more serious note Unreported World just had an episode on Karachi, a twenty million city whose water sources appear to have dried out.
On a more serious note Unreported World just had an episode on Karachi, a twenty million city whose water sources appear to have dried out.
G. Kashkanun Anderson
SOC-13
They don't need to hold out forever, only a few months. Zombie outbreaks are a nonstarter in Minnesota before mid-April, and any Summer outbreak Zombies will be largely immobile by October, and rock-solid after Halloween. By then, any ten-year-old with a bat is more than a match for them; their heads will pop off like frozen turkeys on a T-ball stand.
:rofl:
I am convinced.
First sign of a Zombie Apocalypse ... Minnesota, here I come!
... I suppose that by that logic, a Zombie Apocalypse couldn't last more than a year in South Florida either.
Wood fence posts rot in less than 5 years and road kill bloats and disappears completely in less than a month in the hot, humid summers.
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Texas
With its wide variety of landscapes, ecologies, resources, freshwater, coastal placement, my vote is for Texas in the long-term apocalypse. It has been said before that Texas can do without the United States, but the United States cannot do without Texas. Hurricane Rita did more economic damage to the country than Hurricane Katrina when Rita gave the refineries a big, salty enema.
Given also that Texans have a de-centralized state goverment, a single hit to the capitol will not sink them. They love their land and their guns and you can have both when you pry them from their cold, dead hands.
Speaking of hands, they're strapping mine down for the 'conversion' right no-
<end trans. OENLAETSVAEG (Goekhnael 1938)>
With its wide variety of landscapes, ecologies, resources, freshwater, coastal placement, my vote is for Texas in the long-term apocalypse. It has been said before that Texas can do without the United States, but the United States cannot do without Texas. Hurricane Rita did more economic damage to the country than Hurricane Katrina when Rita gave the refineries a big, salty enema.
Given also that Texans have a de-centralized state goverment, a single hit to the capitol will not sink them. They love their land and their guns and you can have both when you pry them from their cold, dead hands.
Speaking of hands, they're strapping mine down for the 'conversion' right no-
<end trans. OENLAETSVAEG (Goekhnael 1938)>
I eluded to temps and zombies mentioning Oregon and Alaska earlier. In "I am Legend" they, the barbarian zombies, seemed fine years after the apocalypse in NYC. They stayed in doors had evolved on some level. They we're formitable.
well one can say anything. the north did just fine without not only texas but the entire south for about four years or so, and if you count reconstruction more like ten.
that said, any zombie horde that tries to travel from one inhablted area of texas to another is likely to die of boredom before arriving.
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