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Big Ship vs Little Ship

Originally posted by Anthony:
Bonded Superdense is not MMT? In any case, basic traveller tech requires magic materials, to deal with such problems as weapons destroying themselves when they fire, power plants melting when used, ...
The first time Bonded Superdense shows up by name that I can recall is in Striker, which is not strictly BT/CT.

The other important techological innovation that creeps in the back door is "controlling the strong nuclear force at ranges beyond the atomic", which forms the basis for nuclear damper tech as well as most so-called "Meson" tech (guns, shields, commo). This shows up starting in CT Book 4, and probably constitutes the "fourth" basic tech assumption in Traveller engineering.

The engineering requirements for heat resistance in weapons and power systems are quite distinct (and easier to meet) than those of unimaginably high-tensile-strength structural materials to be used for large-scale rigid structures, and therefore would logically constitute a separate technological innovation, likely included in the aforementioned "tabletop hot fusion". Here IRL, there is a growing abundance of materials engineering solutions for high-temp applications in the prototypes of tokamaks and weaponized lasers, but I've yet to see even preliminary research on, for example, crystallizing iron...

MDT and MPT (Magic Power Tech) carry with them certain basic assumptions about materials tech (indeed, the history of technology is the history of materials tech; hence the "Stone Age", the "Bronze Age", the "Iron Age", the "Silicon Age", etc.) but Bonded Superdense and its ilk represent an additional technological assumption beyond what's necesarily included in the basic background until CT Book 5 and the introduction of hulls exceeding 5Kdtons (ignoring for a moment the CT K'kree Alien Module which actually post-dates HG2). Thus, MMT, if embraced, would constitute a distinct "fifth" basic technological assumption in Traveller.
 
Originally posted by stofsk:
Escort ships are just that: escort. They can't project the nation's military might the way a carrier or battleship (for example) could.
Ummm... Actually the transports are only if there is a need to actually hold territory: kinetic bombardment of a planet is well past the "nuking it into the stone age" threshold, with less worries about isotope half-lives. A frigate with C-Fractional missiles can effectively rubble a planet, so these "escorts" are also "boomers".

KKM's (Kinetic Kill Missiles) significantly change the "balance" of deep space combat.

If you're interested in chatting about this (or the chocolate sprinkles... *yum*) drop me a PM

Scott Martin
 
Bonded superdense is actually pretty flimsy compared to some modern materials. Steel with tungsten filaments is more than an order of magnitude tougher than hardened steel (in the same way that fiberglass is much stronger than epoxy) and carbon fibre (not even carbon nanotubes) are vastly better materials (based on strength/weight) than BSD (or even BCSD)

Traveller's "Magic Materials Technology" is actually pretty flimsy stuff compared with materials already under development for our TL-9...

For a primer, try "The new science of strong materials (or why things don't fall through the floor)" by James Edward Gordon
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0691023808/104-7344900-1950317?v=glance&n=283155
(get it from the library, then buy the book...)

Boomslang: try doing a search for "Steel Glass" this is actually steel with a deliberately chaotic (non-crystalline) structure that is vastly tougher than current steels, and is now in commercial development as a surface coating material.

Scott Martin
 
Originally posted by Scott Martin:
Bonded superdense is actually pretty flimsy compared to some modern materials. Steel with tungsten filaments is more than an order of magnitude tougher than hardened steel (in the same way that fiberglass is much stronger than epoxy) and carbon fibre (not even carbon nanotubes) are vastly better materials (based on strength/weight) than BSD (or even BCSD)
It was my understanding that, for the mass, bonded superdense was in the neighborhood of 8 orders of magnitude higher in both hardness and tensile strength than modern hardened steel.

Did they back off that sort of performance in post-Striker versions?
 
Originally posted by Scott Martin:
Bonded superdense is actually pretty flimsy compared to some modern materials. Steel with tungsten filaments is more than an order of magnitude tougher than hardened steel.
Um..Bonded Superdense has 14x the armor value (and about 7.5x per unit weight), not 14x the tensile strength or other similar measure. Given the way armor value generally scales, that makes it some 200x stronger than steel.
 
IMTU four battle cruisers are all it takes to patrol a subsector ;)

Not to mention the battleship (2-3kt per ship) and carrier (3-4kt per ship) squadrons assigned to naval bases.

Add quite a few CEs, a variety of cruisers (600-2000t) and you have a navy for a small ship setting.
 
For mt universe I basically used tonnages from WW1 and 2 so destroyers are now up to 3000 dt with many smaller still in serivce, heavy cruisers 10,000dt or smaller and battleships and battlecruisers around 20,000dt. Carriers are currently similar in size to the largers cruisers.

This makes it medium ship I guess. Though of course there is that alien ship 25km in length which is a tad bigger.
 
For my current TU I've been going straight book 2, so I'm really small ship all the way.

Private or small-line commercial shipping runs between 2-600 tons, generally on the Jump-1 routes at which such ships are reliably profitable without subsidy. Imperial and planetary subsidy supports J2-3 routes with 600-1000 ton vessels; you get a few privately owned long-jump ships doing speculative work, but these are scarce. My imperium also maintains a fleet of huge (3-4000 ton) J3 freight haulers which continually run out beyond the frontier to support and resupply the fleet, and then return collecting tribute and tax to bring back to the Homeworld. (I treat these as a major disruption to normal trade when they arrive insystem, merchants desperately trying to get their cargos out of system before the Imperial Black Ship hits orbit and snaps up everything via requisition below market.)

Most military starships IMTU encountered are T class-comparable jump ships; fleet type encounters will nearly always be at arms' length, involving fighters - it's a fighter navy.

The fleet has 4000 ton J3 carriers at its core, usually carrying a mix of fighters and carried 6G vessels of 3-400 tons. They're generally accompanied by fast, heavily armed ships of 1000-2000 tons; invasion fleets generally involve bombardment ships in the 3-4000 ton range as well. Some theaters make use of ships up to the practical 5000 ton limit, but as these can't handle a Jump 3, they're of limited use.

I've dallied with High Guard in the past, but I like me empire cozy...
 
Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
Both. It is a matter of what you are and where you are. IRL we have 90000BRT "big juicy targets" (aks Aircraft carrier) and 1900BRT "mean little killers" (K130 Corvettes) both existing in first world navies.
[lean-in]Warships aren't measured in GRTs, ye landlubber![/lean-out]

@ TheEngineer
Interesting link, thank you. And I definitely agree with you.

Regards,

Tobias
 
Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
Sagt einer aus der Hafen- und Seefahrerstadt Braunschweig :=) Ich stehe wenigstens dazu das ich Schlammkriecher bin.
file_21.gif


I went for small ships, LBB2-style, in my ATU purely for ease of use. I like floorplans and pictures when it comes to ships, while I've never used any ship combat rules beyond the odd fleeting shot or missile. That makes 5000 dtons pretty much the limit of what I'm willing to design.
 
Gents,

A Small Ship Universe does has its attractions. Among other things players are not lost among million dTon behemoths. However, like any changes we make to the OTU when fashioning our own TUs, all the effects and reprecussions of a Small Ship universe need to be dealt with in an intellectually honest manner.

A personal TU in which ships sizes are limited to ~5000 dTons will see profound changes in colonization, trade, and warfare. The canonical history of the OTU cannot reconciled with a Small Ship Universe and so thus cannot be used in such a personal TU.

Another point to consider concerns the numbers of ships in a Small Ship Universe. If a world can build 5 million dTons of shipping it doesn't really matter if that amount of tonnage is made up of 5 one million dTon ships or 1000 five thousand dTon vessels. The players are still overwhelmed either by size or numbers.


Have fun,
Bill
 
IMTU i limited player access
to 100,200,400,800,1000t vessels
everything else was ecounter ships
i rarely allowed access to the 1000t
except for hardline military ventures...

5000t was of course max tonnage...
 
Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
Sagt einer aus der Hafen- und Seefahrerstadt Braunschweig :=) Ich stehe wenigstens dazu das ich Schlammkriecher bin.
Wohnort =/= Geburtsort. Davon abgesehen: Sagt einer, dessen Seemeilenkonto für mehr als eine Globusumrundung reicht.
file_23.gif

Btw, I wonder if the Imperial Navy recruits strongly on backwater planets. In the German Navy, we have a high percentage of volunteers from Bavaria and other land-locked regions. I guess the allure and exoticism is greater for them then for inhabitants of coastal regions.

Regards,

Tobias
 
Ja, ich kann nur ein bischen Deutsch. (20 yrs since I studied, it is likely nothing more than that phrase...)
Originally posted by Tobias:
Btw, I wonder if the Imperial Navy recruits strongly on backwater planets. In the German Navy, we have a high percentage of volunteers from Bavaria and other land-locked regions. I guess the allure and exoticism is greater for them then for inhabitants of coastal regions.
Don't forget the Austro-Hungarian Navy!
 
Originally posted by Straybow:
Don't forget the Austro-Hungarian Navy!
Straybow,

As well we shouldn't! It was a thoroughly professional force with excellent officers and a good track record. Lissa against the Italians in 1866 was the first clash of ironclad squadrons, rather then the one-sided duels of the ACW. The out-numbered A-H side steamed on to victory. They had a similar triumph against the Danes a few years earlier.

If the manufacturer hadn't shipped the wrong engine, a fellow working for the A-H Navy would have beaten the Wright Bros. to the punch. He had a seaplane ready to go on some large inland lake but the engine model he recieved was heavier than the one he ordered and the crash ended things rather completely. :(


Have fun,
Bill
 
OTU, both in terms of it's size and that of the ships, is really a TCS universe - beyond even HG alone. I agree that OTU is completely inconsistent with a smallship universe.

One reason why I've bagged the OTU for my vast, nine subsector Festrian Empire, and bagged High Guard right along with it.
 
Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran von Gushiddan:
Was Ist? Auf Englisch, Miene Freundin!

Please translate for us insular types!
"Freundin"?

I rather doubt that either Tobias or Michael are ladies...
 
Originally posted by Baron Saarthuran von Gushiddan:
Was Ist? Auf Englisch, Miene Freundin!
I hope and assume you meant "Meine Freunde", meaning my friends. ;)
In any case, I was reproaching Michael for his incorrect use of GRT in a warship context (common mistake), he was quipping back that I was talking big for someone from the great seaport of Braunschweig (which is a German right on the flat land) and I was quipping back again that place of residence =/= place of birth and that anyway I had enough nautical miles under my belt to go round the globe quite more than once. (This is a common bragging meme for German naval sailors.)

Regards,

Tobias
 
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