Big Ship vs Little Ship

[jawillroy]

>To escape if they are losing.

"Bah! These College Naval Architects Impugn the Valour of Our Navy. To Flee The Seat Of War In the Face of the Enemy? Harrumph."
- Sir Aethelbert Sticklebrough, Commander IN (Ret)

"You'll notice that while they've given the cruisers limited jump capability, we in the fighter screen get f***-all but a low berth when things go spinward, and the line ships run for jump. Frelling typical, I say."
- Active Duty Ensign (name withheld)

 

[jrients]

Aramis, given those numbers I think I could get away with calling the Kinunir class the typical ship of my Imperial fleets.

Now, I understand the Kinunir is probably a-typical in a whole lotta ways, but hear me out. It's in the right size range between the 800-ton frigates and 2Kton destroyers. And it's an early design and I'm looking at trying to capture some of that proto-Traveller magic. Call it the median design if it makes you feel better about the choice.

Either way, picking a class, any class, and using the 1 million sophonts per ship rule of thumb puts me in the position of being able to build some navies.

 

[Anthony]

1,000 dtons of ship per million sophants isn't a particularly unreasonable number. It's just a problem when Mora has a population of 30 billion; 30 million dtons of warships? Whether you split that into 300 100,000 dton big ships, or 30,000 1,000 dton small ships, it's a big nasty fleet.

 

[Tobias]

That's one of several reasons for me to prefer big ships. If there are hordes of small ships, the IN will have enough of them to have each and every system, even the most backwater one, patrolled by several ships.

Regards,

Tobias

 

[far-trader]

Well if picking any class of ships gets you started how about maybe using the old definition of a ship for the size? That is 100tons, instead of 1000tons. That makes Mora's fleet more managable but still very impressive and you'd still have small pop systems with a few interstellar ships or SDBs.

Seems more reasonable to me that the norm (or median, or whatever) be below the size of the ship (Kinunir class) that is to instill fear and respect for the Imperium in some systems

 

[Chaos]

Originally posted by Aramis:
On a mass basis, the "typical ship" is about a destroyer/frignaut...

Doing a quick dig through UNS Fact File, I got surface ships averaging about 19K Tons Water Displacement, subs about 10K. (166 and 79 ships in each group.)

I couldn't track down the auxilliaries, but they count in the "600 ship navy".

The FFG is about 4100 TWD
The DDG is about 9200
the CG is 9600
Landing ships are between 16K and 40K
the CV's are around 80K
the CVN's are 97K

To convert to Traveller's LHyd Displacements, I'd suggest using 5TWD = 1TdH.

That puts frigates at about 800Td
DD about 2KTd
Assault ships up to 8K

Minor quibble: the "landing ships" (I assume you mean Wasp and Tarawa class ships and the like) are actually landing platforms - in Traveller terms they would probably translate into carriers or battle tenders, or a combination of both. Actual landing ships (LST) are IIRC significantly smallers - 16,000 tons might be the upper, not lower figure.

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Well if picking any class of ships gets you started how about maybe using the old definition of a ship for the size? That is 100tons, instead of 1000tons. That makes Mora's fleet more managable but still very impressive and you'd still have small pop systems with a few interstellar ships or SDBs.

Mora's fleet size is determined by Mora's fleet budget, not by population per se. 300,000 100 dton scouts isn't particularly manageable either.

If you want PC-scale ships to matter, you have to either retcon out the big worlds, or come up with a reason the big worlds don't bother with the small worlds.

 

[far-trader]

No, it would be 30,000 100ton ships (3 million tons of ships). But it's more likely to be 3000 1000ton ships or 300 10kton ships, or actually some mix of course, perhaps even with a 500kton monitor or two.

As far as Mora's fleet size being determined by some "budget" rather than population, well Aramis' way is just a short cut method of just that. Rather than making up some numbers based on current Terran defense spending and population and extrapolating that to a far future of space defense he's just basing it on a "ships" estimate.

Agreed the best (?) way to reduce ship/fleet sizes is to reduce population but it's not the only way.

 

[far-trader]

Further, based on my idea to use Aramis' population to ship ratio and my suggested 100tons as the ship definition, I came up with a quick system that not only fits the CT encounter charts rather well but seems to blend both the small ship universe of Book 2 and the big ship universe of Book 5.

First reference the pop code and modifier for the system to get the local defense force class. These ships are not jump capable. Then adjust that for starport class and bases.

Note the Local Defense Force description is just a guideline. Not all the ships need be the same and really shouldn't be in most cases. Use your judgement in making up a fleet that works with the description as a measure of the approximate total tonnage. Also note that the Forces will be built to the local TL so that servicing and repair can be done locally where the Starport or a Base supports it.

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Pop code Local Defense Fleet

4- None - random patrols are possible

5 1 small craft (10tons) per pop modifier

6 1 small SDB (100tons) per pop modifier

7 1 light cruiser (1Ktons) per pop modifier

8 1 medium cruiser (10Ktons) per pop modifier

9 1 battleship (100Ktons) per pop modifier

A 2 monitors (500Ktons) per pop modifier</pre>[/QUOTE]Starport modifiers:

Class A Starport - Double the numbers of the force size with half of the ship being jump capable.

Class B Starport - This is the baseline for the chart above. No adjustment is needed.

Class C Starport - Halve the numbers of the force size but all are jump capable on rotating patrol.

Class D Starport - No ships except random patrols unless there is a base present.

Class E Starport - No ships present except random patrols.

Base modifiers: If a Base is present treat the system as the next better Starport class for numbers of the force size. In the case of a Class A Starport with a base double the numbers twice, once for being a Class A Starport and again for having a Base.

-------

Anyway, like I said just a quick stab at it based on some rough ideas from old work.

 

[far-trader]

Basically, if you want to find the Book 2 Small Ship universe, look in the small ponds (poorly developed starports with low populations). If you're fishing for the Book 5 Big Ship universe, you need to look in the big ponds (well developed starports with high populations).

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Rather than making up some numbers based on current Terran defense spending and population and extrapolating that to a far future of space defense he's just basing it on a "ships" estimate.

Which, at the original estimate of 1 'ship' per million people, is still way too many.

In the end, the size of the navy is determined by perceived need and available resources. Mora might certainly have a smaller navy, on the theory it doesn't need more. However, there's no way you can base navy size directly on population without producing broken results at either the low end or the high end.

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by Anthony:
1,000 dtons of ship per million sophants isn't a particularly unreasonable number. It's just a problem when Mora has a population of 30 billion; 30 million dtons of warships? Whether you split that into 300 100,000 dton big ships, or 30,000 1,000 dton small ships, it's a big nasty fleet.

Anthony: remember that the rule of thumb gives us 4Td per 1000 people... roughly... rather than the 1 that is being bandied about.

But, in this principal, Mora is likely to have 1 million tons tied up in high-port, another million in a Navy High Port, another million in Imperial Navy vessels, another million in Moran Subsector Navy. And the rest is likely tied up in 50KTd & 100KTd orbital habs and in-system shipping.

Another way to look at finding the numbers: Cr1 per head generates 1MCr/Million people... and a ship average is roughly 0.5 MCr = 1Td. Op costs will be salaries + fuel + docking, and a reasonable navy will replace every X years, and should be replacing 2-5% of each class per year... depending upon schedule... and must perform annual maintenance. The big cost is replacement. A 40 year replacement plan is 2.5% per year...

A Type S:
Cost (roughly) MCr30
Fuel/Month: KCr25
Monthly LS KCr8
Salaries (P+E) monthly: KCr9
Replacement Schedule, monthly contrib: KCr57.7
Annual Maintenance Share: KCr2.3
Monthly cost: KCr102
Annual Cost: MCr1.326
Upkeep rate: about 4.5% of cost per year.

So a budget credit supports 22x the tonnage that could be purchased outright... For larger ships, it tends to be around 10x to 15x ....

(why did I keep Bk2 rate of pay? Mil crews will make less, but they will also have support staff dirtside to pay.)

And, given MT's average soc costs requires KCr22.5/year, a 1% tax is KCr0.225 a head. 4.4 people per KCr...

 

[aramis]

Originally posted by Chaos:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Aramis:
Landing ships are between 16K and 40K

Minor quibble: the "landing ships" (I assume you mean Wasp and Tarawa class ships and the like) are actually landing platforms - in Traveller terms they would probably translate into carriers or battle tenders, or a combination of both. Actual landing ships (LST) are IIRC significantly smallers - 16,000 tons might be the upper, not lower figure. </font>[/QUOTE]ANd you'd be wrong. The 16K is the low end of the LSD range, and the 40K is the upper end of the Wasp and Tarawa classes.

I ignored the LC_ classes as those are not ships (with one class's exception, but it listed no hulls.)

Check before quibbling. Saves egg on face.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by sid6.7:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by rancke:
High-population worlds having hundreds of 5,000 T warships instead of dozens of 50,000-500,000 T warships will give a frontier feeling? I don't agree.

Well clearly you didnt catch the part where I said MY reasons...</font>[/QUOTE]Yes, I did. I just disagree with you. I also thought you posted in a public forum because you wanted to discuss those reasons. Since you don't, I'll just give one example of what I meant:

In your reason #1, you claimed that having small ships gave a frontier feeling. I feel that you only get that if you ignore the ramifications of having high-population worlds within a few parsecs. So IMO you're wrong: small ships alone do not a frontier feeling give; you need either low populations or more space to patrol too, and if you have low populations, big ships are even better at giving a frontier feeling, because you get the lion's share of the naval budget tied up in ships that will stay at the few main worlds, leaving the frontier worlds protected by a few -- you guessed it -- small ships.

you go with your reasons...

Oh, I do, I do.

I'll go with mine...

I wouldn't expect it any other way.

Sorry CT canon adventures just don't field 100's of 5,000t warships at least in the 12 or so I have...ecounter charts just don't generate that either....hence a frontier feeling....

Just like you, the writers of the CT adventures failed to consider the full ramifications of having worlds with billions of people around.

Sorry I don't get that frontier feeling with a 1 million ton vessel with 5500 crew and 20,000 troops...VS a 800t cruiser 10-15 crew and 30-40 troops....

Clearly you didn't understand my argument. To wit, that you can have big ships in a universe without having big ships in frontier systems. In fact, it's easier to explain frontiers with few ships in a big ship universe than in a small ship universe.

I haven't looked hard at HG for encounters maybe they are the same like I said though I'm 99% CT and 1% involved in the others...

High Guard is CT.

I wasn't looking for validation in anyway whatsoever...

And clearly you weren't looking for a discussion of your ideas either. Just what were you looking for?


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Aramis:
Soo... 1 ship per approximately 1 million people... that puts most of the smaller worlds with one warship or several cutters...

Seriously, tho', I suspect that the ratios for space navy can and should be lower for the high-pops than for the lower ones, and low pops should also have smaller ships...

I totally agree. That's why I think having peacetime military budgets of 10% is plausible for pocket empires surrounded by hostile pocket empires and having Imperial worlds average a peacetime military expenditure of 3% is... not beyond the bounds of the possible. And note that that is an average. I expect that border worlds will spend 4 or 5 or 6% while interior worlds will spend as little as 1%.

The thing is, even 1% of the GWP of several billion people is a lot. So given a choice of spending all that money on ships ranging from 100 to 5000 T and on ships ranging from 100 to 1,000,000 T, you actually get fewer ships with the latter option. I don't understand why anyone can disagree with that. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of elementary bean-counting.

IMTU, less than 1% of people ever leave their homeworld, and the fraction inches down as the pop increases (and thus likely so does the service industry base available).

I agree.

A million plus people should be able to be fairly self-sufficient; 10 million more so, etc....

The resources of just one million people is a little low. With a big brother like the Imperium to protect them, they fall in that awkward category where they're possible, but unlikely. 10 million I don't object to, although I feel that the optimum population size falls withing the 50-500 million range.

IMTU independent low-population worlds are never more than polite fictions. They always have some sort of big brother around to protect them. Worlds with population levels of 5 and 6 can be sovereign, but they require individual explanations. They're the Lichtensteins and Monacos of the TU. Population levels of 7 or more do not require any special explanation (of why they're sovereign; high-population hell-holes require explanations on other grounds )

a mass exodus from a hive world should be a notable event, not a steady flow. On some small backwaters, perhaps 90 to even 100 percent might have left planet... but the only reasons to leave a garden world like Regina are adventure, civic duty, and work... and those not seeking to do so for adventure and civic duty are unlikely to take the jobs that require leaving anyway.

I agree, but I don't get your drift.


Hans

 

[mbrinkhues]

What about using the Naval size of GB/D/USA/J/F/RU during the 1871-1914 period as a yardstick how many SHIPS/tonnage, excluding small craft and yards etc, per person.

IIRC neither nation was in danger of bancrupting itself, all had stable, often de-flationary (Gold circulation) currencies and all had some colonies.

And while we are at it, we might look at the colonies (border) vs. home fleet setups also. After all it would not have been the only time GDW used the colonial age as a template (2300AD comes to mind)

 

[jrients]

While I certainly see the problem some of you might have with Mora, how many Mora's are there? I just flipped through my Maranantha-Alkahest Sector Guidebook (Judges Guild 1981) and the most populated subsector has 27 billion sophonts total. Using the 100dTon standard that puts all naval forces for the subsector at 2.7 million displacement tons. I think I can make that work IMTU. Even the 1,000 dTon standard, with 27 million tons available, might be okay.

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by jrients:
While I certainly see the problem some of you might have with Mora, how many Mora's are there?

Assuming you mean high-population worlds:

In theory: Going by CT world generation, one in twelve systems has a population of one billion or more.

In practice: In the Imperial half of the Spinward Marches alone we have Aki, Crout, Dodds, Efate, Glisten, Heroni, Jewell, Louzy, Lunion, Margesi, Menorb, Mora, Natoko, Pallique, Porozlo, Rethe, Rhylanor, Roup, Ruie, Strouden, Tirem, Trin, and Zivije. Even if you deduct some of them for having too low a TL (and I'd say that it was perfectly reasonably to ignore a world like Dodds, whose GWP is less than that of Edenelt with 700 million people), there's still a lot left.


Hans

 

[BillDowns]

Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
What about using the Naval size of GB/D/USA/J/F/RU during the 1871-1914 period as a yardstick how many SHIPS/tonnage, excluding small craft and yards etc, per person.

IIRC neither nation was in danger of bancrupting itself, all had stable, often de-flationary (Gold circulation) currencies and all had some colonies.

Actually, Michael, the period from 1859 to 1922 was a very fluctuating period. Up till 1875-77, the principal nations were shifting from wood-and-steam to iron-and-steam (except the US), and up till 1890 shifting to steel-and-steam. After 1905 and the Dreadnought construction paradigm, the principal nations were spending tons of money as all pre-dreadnoughts became obsolete over-night. Eventually, this led to the 1922 Washington Treaty. Many historians also feel this Dreadnought race, in particular, led to WWI.

The only really stable period was from about 1880 to 1905.

And while we are at it, we might look at the colonies (border) vs. home fleet setups also. After all it would not have been the only time GDW used the colonial age as a template (2300AD comes to mind)

This is simple: Colonial Fleet ships were vastly under-sized or over-aged compared to Home Fleet ships. A battleship assigned to a colonial setting was typically old compared with a Home Fleet battleship. Colonial cruisers were 1/2 to 2/3 the size of Home Fleet cruisers.

I don't know that this is that applicable, though, since only Great Britain, France, Italy, and to a lesser degree Germany, really set up Colonial Fleets.

 

[BillDowns]

Originally posted by Michael Brinkhues:
What about using the Naval size of GB/D/USA/J/F/RU during the 1871-1914 period as a yardstick how many SHIPS/tonnage, excluding small craft and yards etc, per person.

IIRC neither nation was in danger of bancrupting itself, all had stable, often de-flationary (Gold circulation) currencies and all had some colonies.

Actually, Michael, the period from 1859 to 1922 was a very fluctuating period. Up till 1875-77, the principal nations were shifting from wood-and-steam to iron-and-steam (except the US), and up till 1890 shifting to steel-and-steam. After 1905 and the Dreadnought construction paradigm, the principal nations were spending tons of money as all pre-dreadnoughts became obsolete over-night. Eventually, this led to the 1922 Washington Treaty. Many historians also feel this Dreadnought race, in particular, led to WWI.

The only really stable period was from about 1880 to 1905.

And while we are at it, we might look at the colonies (border) vs. home fleet setups also. After all it would not have been the only time GDW used the colonial age as a template (2300AD comes to mind)

This is simple: Colonial Fleet ships were vastly under-sized or over-aged compared to Home Fleet ships. A battleship assigned to a colonial setting was typically old compared with a Home Fleet battleship. Colonial cruisers were 1/2 to 2/3 the size of Home Fleet cruisers.

I don't know that this is that applicable, though, since only Great Britain, France, Italy, and to a lesser degree Germany, really set up Colonial Fleets.