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Big ships vs. little ships

CT tells us that 1 missile turret launcher has a 3 missile capacity.
the only thing book 2 said about missiles was that they had a certain weight. looked it up and found it matched a modern sidewinder fairly closely. thirty of them from turrets is a factor 7 salvo. made the assumption that factors 8 and 9 from bays are due to better tracking facilities so that a factor 9 salvo was still thirty missiles. a sidewinder is a tad bit under three meters long, and thirty of them will fit into a half-dton box (with separation and support material), so one can say that a factor 9 salvo fits into a half-dton shipping/storage/launching container. one may say half a bay is launch facility. hence, fifty dton bays hold fifty salvos, one hundred dton bays hold one hundred salvos. it all fits together nicely.

and yes, when a fleet of 1kdton missile boats is up against a fleet of agility 6 armor 15 nuc damper 9 meson ships they do go through all fifty salvos.
 
I don't know that any of the Traveller games had a good space combat system. HG was apparently the best, considering the following it has.
hg is popular because it's dirt simple. it can hardly even be considered a combat system. more than one person has commented that hg battles are won or lost at construction time.

'course, coming up with one on your own is difficult. been working on mine for six months now, maybe I can playtest it soon. it's not an easy subject. power supply rates, sensors, real vs sci-fi weapons, distances, weapon ranges, lack of real-time information, turn granularity, acceleration vs agility disk area, crew skill levels, ship aspects and presented areas, hit locations, weapon damage, weapon penetration, etc etc etc. graphically depicting the battle is a huge problem all by itself - if a 1/4 inch hex represents one light second, then pluto's orbit is six hundred and twenty five feet in diameter. it's kind of a nightmare. hg is easy - short/long range, roll dice, look up chart, ship goes boom, repeat.
 
LBB2 2nd edition page 32 in reloading is where the number of missiles is mentioned.
Striker B2 page 41 and 42 tells us that a turret missile has a 15 cm warhead, a bay missile has a 25 cm warhead.
SS3 gives us turret missiles with dimensions of 1m long by 15 cm diameter and mass up to 50 kg. It says that larger missiles have to go in bays.
 
Originally posted by flykiller:
the only thing book 2 said about missiles was that they had a certain weight. looked it up and found it matched a modern sidewinder fairly closely. thirty of them from turrets is a factor 7 salvo. made the assumption that factors 8 and 9 from bays are due to better tracking facilities so that a factor 9 salvo was still thirty missiles. a sidewinder is a tad bit under three meters long, and thirty of them will fit into a half-dton box (with separation and support material), so one can say that a factor 9 salvo fits into a half-dton shipping/storage/launching container. one may say half a bay is launch facility. hence, fifty dton bays hold fifty salvos, one hundred dton bays hold one hundred salvos. it all fits together nicely.

and yes, when a fleet of 1kdton missile boats is up against a fleet of agility 6 armor 15 nuc damper 9 meson ships they do go through all fifty salvos.
You are using the volume of the components to get the number of missiles that fit in 1 shipboard displacement ton.
I'm using mass, 1 ton is 1000kg. The trade rules in CT show that 1 ton of cargo is 1000kg of mass. Which also explains why a missile magazine in T20 holds 29 missiles per ton ;)
 
Yeah, I realized early on that too much complexity was going to be out of my league. BL proved it to me, but also revealed that it could be MUCH simpler if the player were willing to make certain assumptions or have certain understandings. Basically, I would have to write things to explain WHY things were so simple, because actually making the rules that complicated wasted time and gained you no sense of accomplishment. It was pointless to be too realistic, and once I realized that, the game became MUCH simpler. Probably close to HG-level of simplicity, maybe more so, yet still allowed the player to make decisions that affect the battle.

As an example, you launch a salvo of missiles. You have a choice of when to detonate them. (They are the NDX variety.) At a hex away from your target, you have a very good chance of being able to set them all off, but the damage you do will probably not add up to much. If you detonate them in the same hex, there is a greater chance of them getting shot down, but each is likely to do more damage. And if you want to do an impact, well, one multi-megaton nuke is sufficient to cripple any ship if detonates on it or in it, but there is a very low likelihood of one of them getting through. Lasers and fighters are very good at shooting them down, but they have short range themselves, and the closer they are, the better they are at doing it, giving the defensive player the choice to risk waiting for them to come in closer or not.

But the owner of the flight of missiles has the option to detonate sooner and get SOMETHING, or to detonate one of them and use it as an area jammer (White Out space, if you've played BL or BR) or to disrupt enemy fighter groups. Of course, the missiles' options all result in their use, so you have to balance the odds of success against the number of missiles and enemy units there are. You wouldn't send a swarm of missiles against a swarm of well armed ships, but then again, if you can get just one in there, you can cause a lot of havoc, so do you risk that you may waste all those missiles? And, of course, there is a limit to the number you can put in the air. Bigger ships carry more missiles, but they all carry only 2 reloads. (No point in getting another allotment of them to have 6 salvoes, because launching facilities aren't that big, and if you've got the missiles, you should be allowed to launch them all in a firestorm. Modern ships don't usually carry more than 1 reload, no matter how many missiles they carry.)

Choreographing when each player gets to do these things is proving to be the major hassle. Should the defensive player always get the option to fire first or hold, or should the offensive player be capable of sneaking something in, especially if he's willing to put a ship in there at point-blank range, to get a hard-to-defend-against launch from the same hex (and risk getting hit by one from the defender). I've made it a hard decision whether to design your ships as multipurpose (carries a little of everything) or specialist (does one thing well, sucks at everything else), and if you go the specialist route, to get the ships where they're needed when they're needed.

No one weapon or tactic should be the king of the battlefield. There should always be something that beats whatever you can come up with, and you should have more choice than paper, rock, scissors.
 
Also, speaking from a non-rules perspective...

Having a huge ship like a 8mil dton dreadnought show up would scare the heck out of almost every sentinent race. It's a great psychological weapon.
 
I'm fond of tougher tougher main vessels.. my interpretation of the old twist was to up gun them. I also limit the critical hit effectiveness on these vessels.

There are many ways to approach capital ship combat. Sounds like we mostly agree that they should be tougher. Or the armour should be handled differently.


10mdt battlewagon:
http://www.angelfire.com/empire2/savage/1WorldOrder/My_Savage_Designs/Titan_HBS-HR.html
A few new rules:
http://www.angelfire.com/empire2/savage/1WorldOrder/Home-Rules/Multi-Spinal_Mount_HR.html

Savage
 
I avoided HG as a combat system... it always was too much an abstraction for good drama, and was table heavy to boot. I always did like the HG design sequence, tho'

Since I had mayday almost as long as I've played traveller, I just used it hybridized with Bk2. (Rescaled for "realism" to 100 second turns... and hence 5km hexes, but I didn't care about that much... but no changes to mechanics. Mayday movement and firing, CT damage)

I basically used USP = Damage points.
 
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