Boarding Actions in "Age of Sail" Space Combat

[Lycanorukke]

in space, what does "slipped in under weapons fire" mean?

Fire lots of crap at the target and (hopefully) slip in while the target is busy dealing with the other stuff. And then chuck in decoys.
And if they do take a shot or two at the breaching pod, it is armoured enough to survive for a hit or two from point defence lasers.

 

[Enoki]

In MT (PH, page 80), a sandcaster fired at close range has a Damage value of 10 (average person can sustain 3 hits before being unconscious and 4-5 more before dying) and a penetratioon of 20 (BD has armor 10-18).

In MgT, the sandcaster can achieve with 1 damage point at close range (CB, page 149). As this is in ship scale, it's equivalent to 50 points at character scale (CB, page 151 sidebar).

In both cases sandcasters are expected to fire as shotgun's pellets, so covering an area (and possibiliy taking more than one trooper)

As I said, I don't know about other versions, but in this two cases, I see them as something to concern any EVA would be boarders... Sandcasters become what grapeshot was in Age of Sail when it comes to repel boarders, as long as they come in EVA.

So, the troops carry a shield. There wouldn't be a weight issue. That pretty much negates the effectiveness of that weapon. If sandcaster's shot were known to have properties that could be exploited those might be done too.

For example if they have a charge (are ionized) they could be deflected easily by a similar charge. Something like an umbrella minus the cloth cover with the arms charged to deflect / repel the incoming bits. Add some armor to that and it pretty much negates the use of the weapon.

Otherwise, just a sloped shield in front of the marine, like a pointy umbrella, would either deflect or stop the shot.

 

[aramis]

In MT (PH, page 80), a sandcaster fired at close range has a Damage value of 10 (average person can sustain 3 hits before being unconscious and 4-5 more before dying) and a penetratioon of 20 (BD has armor 10-18).

Correction: potentially dying...

3/4 is joe average. Each DP converts to 1d damage to attributes after crossing 3. So that 10 hits is 10d vs 21 physical attributes. About 0.29% chance of survivability. Close enough to autokill... 1 in 340, however... and in either case, almost guaranteed to be a KO...

And pen needs to be 2x AV to get full damage...
Even the worst Combat armor is AV 10... so most hardsuits will only take 5.

So that sandcaster only does 5 hits to Billy Battledressed, which means (in addition to odds are being a marine with better than average stats) 3/4 hit capability is about 77% likely to survive, and 0.08% conscious. May Marine (888XXX) is 3/5, and 0.27% consciousness, with > 99% chance of survival.

Note also... that sandcaster does 1 point to a trepida - per hit - and it's capable of multiple hits due to autofire.

If you don't use the errata multiplying hit capabilities by 10 for vehicles, a sandcaster will almost certainly drop a Trepida instantly. If you do, the sandcaster will only drop civilian vehicles, like the air/raft.

 

[aramis]

So, the troops carry a shield. There wouldn't be a weight issue. That pretty much negates the effectiveness of that weapon. If sandcaster's shot were known to have properties that could be exploited those might be done too.

For example if they have a charge (are ionized) they could be deflected easily by a similar charge. Something like an umbrella minus the cloth cover with the arms charged to deflect / repel the incoming bits. Add some armor to that and it pretty much negates the use of the weapon.

Otherwise, just a sloped shield in front of the marine, like a pointy umbrella, would either deflect or stop the shot.

A sandcaster fires a nearly 0.1 ton of shot at speeds well in excess of 250 m/s, one shot every 10 seconds. You put a shield, instead of dying, you now simply rip the shoulder joint out of socket and stretch the brachial artery and vein near or across the breaking point. And probably wind up flat on your arse, anyway.

Remember, deflection usually puts a significant part of the energy into the deflecting surface.

 

[Blue Ghost]

In Babylon-5 you had boarding pods. They slipped in under weapons fire, clamped onto the station and drilled a hole through the hull. The troops inside then swarmed in. *snip*

Before Bab-5, there was Gall force. Or, more appropriately, Gall Force 2;

https://youtu.be/BJis_Ozmz0Y?t=152

 

[kilemall]

A couple of LoGH boarding actions-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWwdtBMuARc


At 6:00-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUoPzdXnICQ

 

[kilemall]

IMTU, I'm making sub-100,000 km range combat utterly lethal, so boarding will usually be by a gig or other small craft, even inspections.

As noted, the M drive or power plant has to go. Perhaps a specialized class of disruption weapon that causes the reactor to shut down without destroying it would be in order.

And, this is what the hoary old CT computer program Select is for, to knock out specific systems. I expect it is there precisely for boarding/disabling.

 

[atpollard]

In the original CT:HG the EP allocation system implied that a PP only needed to be degraded a little before a ship was forced to make some tough choices. Those evasive maneuvers that the defender was counting on to prevent the Gig from docking required SURPLUS EP. Both that high G MD that the defender was counting on to outrun the weapons of the Attacking Starship and those PD Lasers that the defender was planning on using to destroy that Gig full of boarders before they got too close tended to be EP hogs.

As was mentioned, the Select Program was designed to reduce the defender's PP a notch or two, but rapidly increasing vulnerability may begin long before the PP is completely disabled. This opens the door to boarding and capturing a ship that is damaged, but operable.

 

[McPerth]

Correction: potentially dying...

3/4 is joe average. Each DP converts to 1d damage to attributes after crossing 3. So that 10 hits is 10d vs 21 physical attributes. About 0.29% chance of survivability. Close enough to autokill... 1 in 340, however... and in either case, almost guaranteed to be a KO...

And pen needs to be 2x AV to get full damage...
Even the worst Combat armor is AV 10... so most hardsuits will only take 5.

So that sandcaster only does 5 hits to Billy Battledressed, which means (in addition to odds are being a marine with better than average stats) 3/4 hit capability is about 77% likely to survive, and 0.08% conscious. May Marine (888XXX) is 3/5, and 0.27% consciousness, with > 99% chance of survival.

Note also... that sandcaster does 1 point to a trepida - per hit - and it's capable of multiple hits due to autofire.

If you don't use the errata multiplying hit capabilities by 10 for vehicles, a sandcaster will almost certainly drop a Trepida instantly. If you do, the sandcaster will only drop civilian vehicles, like the air/raft.

Well, I didn't want to enter on fine points of MT combat, assuming that most players that use MT know it....

If so, all your numbers are before the modifiens due to the tho hit roll, so, those 5 hits may be halved again (if you roll marginal success), but it can also be multipolies (by 2, 4 or 8) if you roll exceptionally success.

Assuming that the to hit is according to the Fire Controlled table (as PH page 72), against a BD armored guy (armor 10-18), ar mediun range (5-50 m) results would be:

At TL 8-11 (task is routine):

• on a TH roll of 7: 3 damage points
• on a TH roll of 8: 5 damage points
• on a TH roll of 9-10: 10 damage points
• on a TH roll of 11-12: 20 damage points
• on a TH roll of 13+: 40 damage points

At TL 8-11 (task is easy):

• on a TH roll of 3: 3 damage points
• on a TH roll of 4: 5 damage points
• on a TH roll of 5-6: 10 damage points
• on a TH roll of 7-8: 20 damage points
• on a TH roll of 9+: 40 damage points

As you see, it can be quite a deadly point defense weapon against EVA would be boarders. As I said, to compare with Age od Sail, it's the grape used to repeal them.

 

[robject]

seems like it would be easier and cheaper just to buy the target ship.

LOL!

I know, I just made a useless post, but this struck me as appropriately silly for this conversation. Thanks Fly!


Okay, I'll try to be constructive now.

"Batteries Bearing" might allow an "in" for a boarding craft, but it is clear to me and everybody else that boarding actions within Traveller space combat are clearly space opera. Thus where it exists, it is a "fun factor" consideration, at the peril of snapping someone's sensitive chest hair with their suspenders.

 

[pendragonman]

LOL!

I know, I just made a useless post, but this struck me as appropriately silly for this conversation. Thanks Fly!


Okay, I'll try to be constructive now.

"Batteries Bearing" might allow an "in" for a boarding craft, but it is clear to me and everybody else that boarding actions within Traveller space combat are clearly space opera. Thus where it exists, it is a "fun factor" consideration, at the peril of snapping someone's sensitive chest hair with their suspenders.

I guess by space opera you are in the small ship universe of conversations. After all for a successful boarding action against an AHL would really require a couple battalions of Marines, wouldn't it? And that is moving to strategic level gaming...

 

[aramis]

I guess by space opera you are in the small ship universe of conversations. After all for a successful boarding action against an AHL would really require a couple battalions of Marines, wouldn't it? And that is moving to strategic level gaming...

Only a company or so... but in combat or battledress, with loads of ammunition.

 

[robject]

I guess by space opera you are in the small ship universe of conversations. After all for a successful boarding action against an AHL would really require a couple battalions of Marines, wouldn't it? And that is moving to strategic level gaming...

I wasn't specifying, but I was thinking of the role-playing scenario where players in their little ship are beset by another little ship. To that degree, I am thinking small-ship.

However, I similarly assume that it seems fun for battleships to get boarded, indeed boarded by piles of battledressed marines, and indeed that is part of a wargame, not an RPG.

 

[mike wightman]

Some thoughts on this.
To board a ship you have to match vectors - if the enemy ship is capable of maneuvering that is going to be an almost impossible undertaking (by maneuvering I do of course mean capable of acceleration, a ship with no maneuver drive that is spinning on a known vector can be docked with).

The enemy ship must have no weapons capable of firing - at visual range they should autohit and autokill just about anything less than a capital ship. If you saturate the point defence though you should get something through to dock.
Missiles, decoys and send your marines in drop pods tasked for boarding actions - do not put a squad in a boarding craft as if you lose the craft you lose the squad, one drop pod is one casualty (adapt the rules for drop troops from Striker?).

 

[Reban]

Here's an idea:

Could drop capsules also be used in boarding operations?

A drop capsule is designed to deliver one armored trooper from orbit to world surface through the atmosphere and ground defenses.

Now consider firing a volley of drop capsules at an enemy vessel.

-They can maneuver erratically to avoid defensive fire
-Some will be ECM and decoy capsules.
-A first wave of missiles or breaching charge capsules may facilitate entry.

Of course there are lots of drawbacks

-Capsules need to brake before impacting the target vessel otherwise their trooper goes splat on the hull. There's no way I can see of actually allowing a capsule to hit the hull because it will bounce off in zero-g. Brake and release the trooper at close range at a speed that doesn't kill him or allow him to bounce off on impact. Maybe a harpoon fitted to the capsule?
-This method breaks one major rule of military assault: concentration. The troops probably end up scattered over an area of the hull and will need precious seconds to regroup before attempting entry.
-This idea probably only works for big ships with a large hull area to act as a target zone.

So to sum up, this is very space opera but not the classic breaching pod thrope, and it offers another use for drop capsules which I've alsways wonder were practical for their stated purpose.

Thank you for joining me on this menatl digression, normal service will now resume. :coffeesip:

 

[robject]

You and Mike have similar ideas. And yes, I think drop pods or drop armor is the answer for certain, hasty kinds of boarding actions.

 

[lostscout5]

Docking clamps around the airlock. To hold the ships together. Used for friendly docking in space and boarding actions. There have been a number of designs for small craft for boarding actions. GT IW had one and MgT had at least one, can't remember where. Which you use would depend of the situation and resources available. Here's one example of a boarding action

https://jrcliffordblog.wordpress.com/here-be-dragons-chapter-2/

Well, my view of one anyway.

 

[Lycanorukke]

Instead of using squishy humans in the boarding, have a specialised 'boarding bot'. You shoot the bot at the target in a specialised 'penetrator missile' (like a bunker buster) so the bot gets inside the hull and wreaks havok on the systems and crew. Once the bot has done enough damage, the meat boarders go for the cleanup and capture. (remembered this playing FTL - the boarding bot shot into the life support room was a cheap way to get a ship & salvage)

Or on a slightly different note, have a missile act as a MIRV bus for a lot of small cheap robots. The missile bus gets close and then shoots a lot of small robots at the ship, some may be shot down but a few survive. The surviving bots then clamp onto the hull and run around on the _outside_ of the ship breaking things (turrets, M Drives, missile tubes, hull breaches, etc).

When enough things are broken the human boarders take over the 'old fashioned way'.

Of course, someone has to go outside the ship to get rid of the bots...in the middle of a shootout, while the ships is maneuvering violently, being blasted by fire control locks (lidar and radar), with bonus shrapnel.

Wanna draw straws?

 

[flykiller]

so, you've punched holes in the hull, torn off turrets, ripped out airlocks, destroyed life support, fragged the maneuver drives, and blown up the bridge.

ok ... why did you do that? what was the purpose of all that? if your goal was to capture the ship, congratulations, you got it, or rather what remains of it ... now what?

 

[Condottiere]

How many boarding actions happened between major combatants and capital ships with the Age of Steam?

You'll need an EMP bomb to at least temporarily short out the controls.