CT Only: Book 2 and High Guard, together again

[mike wightman]

I think I posted something a long time ago about adapting the combat matrices from FFW and IE to resolve the massive number of lasers fired by a 2kt LBB2 warship with the double fire program running
No one wants to roll 60 times to hit...

HG 79 tried to go the logarithmic route for weapon factors, HG80 not so much.

 

[mike wightman]

What is also needed for the big ships is for them to multitask more - hence my CIC invention too.

 

[The Oz]

And I wanted to get your attention on this — and Osmanski if he still reads the forum.

I am still here.

I just used a personal mash-up of some LBB5 elements into my LBB2 universe. I never (except once) allowed my PCs to have any ship over 600dtons and told them that if they ran afoul of any legitimate warship, they were toast. Thus, combat between LBB5 ships and LBB2 ship didn't happen in the game.

Off-screen it could happen, and I just winged it according to the needs of the adventure.

 

[infojunky]

I note that High Guard was used to redesign all smallcraft for CT, and that was a Good Thing.

Heh, I am using Osmanski’s Smallcraft design that was posted in this forum, it has the mid range between Books 2&5 feel to it.

Regardless, this thread is about porting in mass fire and armor into Book 2.

I'm currently thinking that the statistical table in Trillion Credit Squadron (pp15-16) could help quite a bit.

Right now for armor I like armor function as discribed in Ken Pick’s expanding Book2 article on Freelance Traveller. But using the Book5 volumes. Though I thought of using the early binary solution of a ship could armored or not, if armored every hit was subject to a saving throw of 4+ to penetrate.

 

[McPerth]

They have to have different combat rules.

IMHO the main difference is that while LBB2 is character oriented, HG isship oriented. I mean, good characters are more important than good ship in LBB, while they have no influence in HG (something that might even have some realism).

So this topic is about putting massed weapon fire and ship defenses into Book 2.

And armor too, I guess,,,

When I think of CT, I recall that personal combat uses personal armor as a -DM to hit. I also recall that there’s no mass fire rule in personal combat unless you switch to the highly abstract LBB4 system.


But... mass fire could provide a +DM to hit, and armor could do a -DM.

I guess that could be the best solution, as in personal combat. Remember, while Personal combat did not allow for mass fire, it allowed for auto fire (as DM), that is a minor form of mass fire...

Some would argue that hitting with mass fire may mean more than one hit, and this way this is not featured, but that's also consistent with personal combat, where auto-fire hit meant also one hit, while multiple ones would be possible IRL... Another option is to achieve more hits if roll is exceded by a certain amount

 

[infojunky]

Another question, this time about missiles in early editions of Book2 missile were’t given a thrust in Book5 they were basically a direct fire weapon, thus should we treat the same? Or in Book2 terms they are launched on one turn and impact the next.

 

[Spinward Flow]

LBB2 missiles were also ... persistent.
If they missed the target, they would just keep homing in on it until destroyed/jammed (or with the missile supplement book, ran out of acceleration to course correct).

 

[infojunky]

LBB2 missiles were also ... persistent.
If they missed the target, they would just keep homing in on it until destroyed/jammed (or with the missile supplement book, ran out of acceleration to course correct).

Since they didn’t have a to hit roll there is miss mechanic in Book2 I don’t see how that could be.

 

[McPerth]

Since they didn’t have a to hit roll there is miss mechanic in Book2 I don’t see how that could be.

They only miss iv destroyed, avoided (with maneuver) or jammed. Needless to say, that makes ECM software a must if you have to face any combat.

 

[whartung]

I think I posted something a long time ago about adapting the combat matrices from FFW and IE to resolve the massive number of lasers fired by a 2kt LBB2 warship with the double fire program running
No one wants to roll 60 times to hit...

Wasn't there a chart printed somewhere that basically handled "bulk firing"? Simply a percentage chart? "If you need 8+, XX% hit", something like that.

Was that in TCS?

 

[Spinward Flow]

Fifth Frontier War functionally did it with its mass combat resolution system for ground troops and combat with system defense boats.

 

[Dragoner]

Some of us have burned brain cells for YEARS, thinking about robustifyng Book 2, without turning it into High Guard.

In short, there is value with both Book 2 and High Guard, because each has a different focus. How then do you introduce elements to Book 2 without changing that focus?

And by “elements” you know I mean Batteries and Armor.

First some givens.

** THE LAWS OF CT SHIP DESIGN **

1. Both systems are assumed to be entrenched; so this is not about fundamentally changing either system.

2. There is a relationship between the two, even in their differences, that’s worth keeping.

3. HG is required for most military ships — especially kilotons and up.

4. Book 2 seems suited towards lightly armored small starships.

I have used a table or two, except for chargen, I have not gone back to Book 5 since the early 2010's; as the group I was running a game for, couldn't get on board for the war game nature. That is kind of big change, because back in the day, we played a lot of High Guard battles, we were all war gamers though. There are a lot of things I appreciate in going back to LBB2, such as no armor, I mean, take an inverted "V", how is armoring an opening even possible? Also, no 3000 mw computers, and no pp's in general, they are redundant anyways. I have added some things of course, drop takes, and a 5 ton barbette for particle accelerators. I like the power plant efficiency by TL, that is a good idea; though for hacking the system, such as with making m-drives fusion rockets, I like. There are too many engines, probably should only be 4, and then stack, at least for m-drives. Big ships don't make much sense structurally anyways.

In general, there is a lot to unpack, I mean in battle there are a lot of cool things that are lost from Book 2 to Book 5, such as pseudo-vector movement, or double-fire; and how quick and deadly combat could be. After all these years and different systems, I always wind up back at Book 2 Starships, it is inspired work.

 

[infojunky]

Lets talk weapon mounts 1 & 2 ton turrets, 5 ton barbettes and 10, 50 and 100 ton bays are all a thing. All of these can fit into Book2 based hulls. The question is what weapons can they hold. Do we count those weapons in terms of tons or in terms of weapon slots? (see table)

Mount	Weapons
1 Turret	3
2 Turret	4
5 Barbette	6
10 Bay	9
20 Bay	12
50 Bay	24
100 Bay	27

 

[mike wightman]

You missed the 3t PA turret...
this is another topic I have written a couple of articles about.

Heavy Turrets and Barbettes

I wanted to up-gun the military ships in a "small ship" MTU, here's what I came up with. TL10+ heavy turret - costs 2 MCr, requires 2 tons of interior volume for fire control etc. It contains 8 mounting slots: missile rack/sandcaster - 1 slot pulse/beam laser - 1 slot per weapon plasma/fusion...

www.travellerrpg.com

 

[infojunky]

You missed the 3t PA turret...

I had. Thanks

In a way that simplifies a chain of thought I was having about a interval of Mounts.
So instead of a 2 ton turret and a 20 ton bay, make them 2.5 & 25 tons respectively.

 

[McPerth]

Lets talk weapon mounts 1 & 2 ton turrets, 5 ton barbettes and 10, 50 and 100 ton bays are all a thing. All of these can fit into Book2 based hulls. The question is what weapons can they hold. Do we count those weapons in terms of tons or in terms of weapon slots? (see table)

I'm afraid I cannot agree with your table, as it makes bays usless, as they compare quite unfavorably against turrets:

You can mount 1 bay per 1000 dtons of the ship not used for other weaponry. This same tonnage would allow you to mount 10 turrets, and there's no point to use it to have 27 weapons (by using 100 dtons) when you can have 30 weapons (in 3 triple turrets) by using 10 dtons...

Bays should have an advantage o nweapons against the turrets, or they will be quite unfavorable against them, as they use more volume

 

[McPerth]

Another thing one must take into account when trying to allow LBB2 to use HG weaponry is that in LBB2 (or at least in TTB, that I believe use the same rules) missiles are not free, neither in cost nor in volume, each costing KCr 5 and 50 kg.

That means, unlike in HG, that a salvo of 20 missiles would need 1 dton of storage to be reloaded, and would cost MCr 0.1...

OTOH, in HG missiles have no cost, nor need volume for reloads, being able to fire infinite missiles without regard to ammunition (a major flawl on it, IMHO)

 

[infojunky]

I'm afraid I cannot agree with your table, as it makes bays usless, as they compare quite unfavorably against turrets:

Ok, I tossed out a set of numbers. Show me what you think they should be.

You can mount 1 bay per 1000 dtons of the ship not used for other weaponry.

Depends on the which version Book5 you look at, the ‘77 editions states any volume not used for Bays can be used for Turrets.

Now I lean towards changing the bay rules, in that bays require hardpoints equal to the bays volume divided by ten.

Bays should have an advantage o nweapons against the turrets, or they will be quite unfavorable against them, as they use more volume

As I said I tossed out some test numbers. I wasn’t happy with the top numbers either but I got something out.

 

[McPerth]

Ok, I tossed out a set of numbers. Show me what you think they should be.

In fact, I'd rarely use bays, if other mounts are available for the weapon I want to mount (repulsors, to give na encample do not exist as turets, nor do HiEnergy weapons or PAs at som TLs).

For other weapons, I guess, unless bays are a huge amount of weapons, turret batteries are better...

And, as said before, I'd use multiple weapon batteries as a DM on the to hit roll (as auto weapon in personal combat). So Bays could have another DM based on the weapons ,and maybe a plus for being bays (assuming this gives an advantage).

 

[infojunky]

Another thing one must take into account when trying to allow LBB2 to use HG weaponry is that in LBB2 (or at least in TTB, that I believe use the same rules) missiles are not free, neither in cost nor in volume, each costing KCr 5 and 50 kg.

That means, unlike in HG, that a salvo of 20 missiles would need 1 dton of storage to be reloaded, and would cost MCr 0.1...

OTOH, in HG missiles have no cost, nor need volume for reloads, being able to fire infinite missiles without regard to ammunition (a major flawl on it, IMHO)

Sure open that can-o-worms.
Then there question wether to use Special Supplement 3 or Book2. If the former the question of the detonation rules Etc. etc…

20 missiles in a ton? Storage only or is there a related auto loader?