Book 2 economics, again! Beating the dead horse...

[far-trader]

Wow, I drop off the boards for a bit and it all goes to...

Hello again

What fun, and me stuck with dial up and so much to review, oh well, maybe not. I will jump in here though. To generally badger some of you with a hearty "Per jump does work!" and a save for daryen who is NOT being completely unreasonable

Originally posted by daryen:
...and again, the reason I want per-parsec is so that I can play the game I want (trading in a J2 ship) according to the rules without having to either 1) use house rules, 2) have my PC go broke, or 3) have my PC get insanely rich using loopholes in the rules.

Here you go daryen, you get the first off the production line, the Fairplay class Far-Trader, hot from the facilities of Journeyman Design Bureau...

...hmmm, I read daryen's lament too quickly earlier, he wants per parsec not a working per jump model, oh well...

Workable CT Book 2 Far-Trader:

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> 400.0T Hull - Standard 16.000
Streamlined 4.000

+50.0T Drives Section

-25.0T Jump Drive D-2 40.000
-3.0T Maneuver B-1 8.000
-13.0T Powerplant D-2 32.000
-9.0T reserved/waste

+350.0T Main Section

-80.0T Fuel x2Parsecs
-20.0T Fuel x4 Weeks

-20.0T Bridge - Standard 2.000
-1.0T Computer 1bis 4.000
Programs: 1.000
Maneuver: 1
Generate: 1
Navigate: 1
Jump 1P : 1
Jump 2P : 2
Library : 1

-44.0T Staterooms x11 5.500
Crew x3
Pass x8
-4.0T Lowberths x8 0.400
Pass x8

-1.0T Hardpoints x1 0.100

-180.0T Cargo Holds
Baggage x9T
Freight x171T

Prototype final cost: MCr113.000

Purchase final price: MCr101.700</pre>[/QUOTE]Crew requirements:

Pilot-2/Navigator-2 (salary Cr8,625 monthly)

Engineer-2/Engineer-2 (salary Cr6,600 monthly)

Steward-1/Medic-2 (salary Cr4,125 monthly)


Financial breakdown:

+Cr6,475,000 annual revenue at full capacity (8 high passages, 8 low passages, 171tons freight)

-Cr5,085,000 annual loan payments over 40 years

-Cr225,000 annual fuel expense (unrefined) for 25 J2 trips

-Cr570,000 annual life support costs for 25 trips full capacity (3 crewpersons, 8 high passages, 8 low passages)

-Cr101,700 annual maintenance (requires 2 weeks at port)

-Cr232,200 annual salaries for crew (including 2 weeks paid leave)

-Cr2,500 annual berthing costs (6 days per port for 25 trips)

-----------

+Cr258,600 annual profits (operating at class C, D, and E ports)


So there! As I've said before it can be done under the per jump rates and Book 2 rules. You just have to design the ship properly and choose the right crew and route. As noted this ship will operate at a profit running just freight if it sticks to the lower class starports to avoid that refined fuel gouge at class A and B ports. A kind ref might even allow that the drives are naval rated to avoid any drive malfunctions and/or misjumps. Or one might mix in some Book 5 and add a purification plant in that extra drive space. But neither is really neccessary. The crew can even use refined fuel some of the time and still break even. With one good speculation cargo they can probably afford to buy the good stuff all year. And besides, the potential breakdowns and misjumps for using unrefined fuel are adventures just waiting to happen, right

You may be questioning the stateroom and lowberth totals. They are based on average numbers rather than optimistic ones since running empty passenger space is a credit drain even though when filled it is your best return. The financial breakdown is optimistic in anticipating always filling with high passengers when it will often be half high and half middle. But even at that lower (perhaps more realistic) operation it will still show an annual profit of Cr58,600. Not enought to get rich (that's what speculation is for) but enough to stay warm and fed.

What do you think? Do I get the mortgage? You can actually just hop in this thing without a credit to your name (well, if it comes fueled and with a full life support charge) and start making money. With some luck you won't have a fuel related drive problem until you've made enough to speculate a little so you can operate out of better ports and buy refined fuel.

And of course what this ship shows is that I can undercut anyone thinking they need to and deserve to charge a per jump rate for your freight or trip. Who's going out of business?

So what is up with that silly Empress class Far-Trader? Obviously it was thrown together as an Adventure ship and NOT a Merchant ship. I hope that's the explanation rather than it was just badly done without any thought. The only way it can work in the per jump charge rules is if it's bought outright or 40years old on a second mortgage.

I can almost make a new 200ton Far-Trader work but it requires house rules and cheats (actually just sub 200ton, and using 1st edition Jump drive rules so you can run a smaller powerplant, and a Book 5 powerplant for less fuel there, and it's TL15, and... ).

Nope the easiest is to just make it at a tonnage and design that actually works. Voila. Note how close it is to the Solomani type AS Free-Trader which is actually a Far-Trader. That ship almost works too, but they went and used a custom hull, and dropped in a D maneuver drive, and a launch on an already streamlined design, and they also over-crew it and over-arm it. All that is profit spaced and no way to design a working ship.

But it is just a game so if the Empress is the cool ship your group has to have and you end up going broke running it (or rather, trying to run it) as a business and have to skip, well that's an adventure too. Hope it's one that makes you enough to settle up with the bank before that tracer catches you.

I'll catch you all, later

 

[robject]

To follow on to Dan's post, I went and dug up the 600-ton merchant built by my friend for operating the Rhylanor-Porozlo run. As Mike suggested, it was indeed a custom Jump-1 craft.

This was back in 1998; the numbers appear to be T4-ish.

</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Here's the new design specifications for the Rylos based on these numbers:
TL14 600 ton hull (streamlined needle)
12 ton jump drive (700 ton jump-1)
11 ton ThrustPlate drive (600 ton 1-G)
60 ton fuel tank

20 ton lifeboat * NEW * * non discounted *

TL9 Standard Military Controls
TL12 Basic Sensors
TL12 Basic Communications
TL14 Civilian Laser Battery
TL12 100Mw and 200Mw Power Plants
5 Large Staterooms
30 Small Staterooms
20 Low-Berths

Individual item breakdowns for necessary ship construction constraints:

Item Displ Power Area Crew Cost
Hull 572.8 -104.1 2028.0 0.0 29.0
100Mw Power Plant -3.6 100.0 -100.0 0.1 E 10.0
200Mw Power Plant -7.1 200.0 -200.0 0.2 E 20.0
Jump Drive -14.0 0.0 -4.7 0.5 E 4.2
T-Plate -11.0 -154.0 -3.0 0.4 E 2.8
Controls -2.2 -1.6 -0.4 0.0 3.8
Sensors -0.3 -11.1 -12.4 0.4 C 6.8
Communications 0.0 -1.3 -11.0 0.4 C 0.2
Laser -3.0 -21.0 -10.0 1.0 G 0.7
5 Large Rooms -20.0 -0.005 0.0 0.625S 0.5
30 Small Rooms -60.0 -0.015 0.0 0.6 S 1.2
20 Low Berths -20.0 -0.020 0.0 1.0 M 1.0
20 ton lifeboat -20.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 ***
Fuel Tanks -60.6 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
Cargo Holds -351.0 0.0 0.0 0.0 0.0
----------- ------ ------- ------ ---- ----
Total 0.0 6.86 1686.5 1.2 E 80.2 (list)
0.8 C 60.15 (discount)
70.00 (+lifeboat)
E = Engineer G = Gunner 1.0 G 14.00 (downpayment)
C = Communications S = Steward 1.225S 0.291700 (monthly)
M = Medic P = Pilot 1.0 M
N = Navigator X = Executive 1.0 P
1.0 N
1.0 X

The bank will want a business plan for the ship to assure that the
monthly payments are met. The plan is as follows:

Salaries will total roughly Cr32000 per month. The mortgage will be
Cr291700 per month. Assuming 2 trips per month (one from Rhylanor to
Porozlo, the other in the reverse direction) there will be a Cr60000
cost for refined fuel. Crew life support will cost Cr32000 per month.

This results in a fixed monthly cost of Cr415700. To break even, the
ship will need to carry 416 tons of freight per month. Passengers, mail,
and extra cargo will result in additional revenues above and beyond this
figure. The trade route has an expected cargo need of 1330 tons per
month in Major Lots alone, therefore the ship should have no trouble at
all making a reasonable return on it's investment.

Provided this meets with your satisfaction, I believe we could put such
a ship into service by 1001.095. If these plans meet with your
approval, please forward the necessary fees and plans to the Starport to
begin construction, I will be arriving in the Rhylanor system in several
weeks to oversee the construction, select a crew, and attend some
training classes. Otherwise, please open an account for me and place
the enclosed credit chips (in the sum of Cr12 million) in the account.
I will deal with its investment and disbursement when I arrive.

Nathler Rellevart (Trade ship Marleener Captain)
[enclosure]</pre>[/QUOTE]Some additional midrash follows:

So, I figure in 1002 or so, he would
have enough in the bank for the downpayment on Rylos-II, and have had
enough time to shake down the bugs, scheduling, etc. that he could move
on to start the second run.

The question of if making 3 or 4 runs per month instead of 1 or 2 would
be acceptable or advisable is open... If the extra ships would
cannibalize the first ships revenue stream, he wouldn't touch it. But we
figured most of the cargo would appear on a weekly basis, and that would
(in theory) allow 4 ships to run in the schedule. Perhaps even 5 to
have a replacement for when the others are in drydock. (4 ships with 1
month of annual maintainence each would almost keep a fifth ship busy...)

I recommend that if you allow additional ships on the route, they be
added at 2 year intervals, take 80% of the profits from the previous 2
years of one ship, then are treated exactly as the rest of the fleet. A
fifth ship would be only half as profitable as the others since it is
just filling the holes in the schedules. (It probably would see a bit of
extra service, like charters, etc. But probably only enough to cover
the extra expenses of planet side staff (etc.) required to keep 4 or 5
ships all running at the same time.)

As I remember, one of the limiting factors on the Rylos was that Nathler
only had MCr12 for the downpayment. However, given the projected
profits, I would not doubt him finding a way to finance a bit extra for
a stake in the first couple of years profits. (Perhaps as much as MCr4
for a 20% take on the first two years profits...) That would be enough
to get a good ships boat, otherwise we could assume that the extra 20%
went into upgrading a small lifeboat into a real ships boat.

This would make for a simple break-even on 1001 and 1002
(paying off the second mortgage, saving for Rylos-II)
1.2 * Profits for 1003 and 1004
(Rylos-II in service, saving for Rylos-3)
2.2 * Profits for years 1005 and 1006
(Rylos-3 in service, saving for Rylos-4)
3.2 * Profits for years 1007 and 1008
(Rylos-4 in service, saving for backup ship)
4.5 * profits for years 1009 through 1017
(Full operational fleet)

This brings the total 17 year profits to MCr968.7

I think some tax assessors, bankers, and family members would be very
happy. Maybe Nathler should change his name to "Bill".

At that point, he'd probably spend a bit more on the offices, buy
himself a small exploration/expedition ship of some sort, and just
disappear to have fun. (Say 4X for offices as he'll also need to set up
a non-profit foundation to get rid of the money he can't spend himself.)

 

[mike wightman]

Nice designs Dan and Rob

Here's a jump 3 speculative trader, designed with LBB2 first edition


</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> 400.0T Hull - Standard 16.000
Streamlined 4.000

+50.0T Drives Section

-35.0T Jump Drive F-3 60.000
-5.0T Maneuver C-1 12.000
-10.0T Powerplant C-1 24.000


+350.0T Main Section

-120.0T Fuel x3Parsecs
-10.0T Fuel x4 Weeks

-20.0T Bridge - Standard 2.000
-1.0T Computer 1bis 5.000
Programs: 0.400
Maneuver: 1
Generate: 2
Navigate: 1
Jump 1P : 1
Jump 2P : 2
Jump 3P : 2
Library : 1

-56.0T Staterooms x14 7.000
Crew x6
Pass x8
-4.0T Lowberths x8 0.400
Pass x8

-1.0T Hardpoints x4 0.400

-138.0T Cargo Holds
Baggage x8T
Speculative Cargo x130T

Prototype final cost: MCr132.500

Purchase final price: MCr118.080</pre>[/QUOTE]Notes:

fire control is installed for only one of the hardpoints - to up gun the ship between 1 and 3 tons of high passenger baggage allowance would have to go (also note that these three baggage areas are labelled as fire control stations...)

the prototype final cost includes the architect's fees

usual crew: pilot, navigator, 2x engineer, medic, steward - if the right crew is found, a pilot/navigator, a steward/medic, and two engineers, and they are willing to share staterooms, then up to four more middle passengers could be carried.
The staterooms are arranged 2 crew staterooms beside the bridge - crew common area - 4 crew statrooms - galley - 8 passenger staterooms - passenger common area - low berths.

 

[aramis]

Kurega:
It wasn't meant as much as a criticism, and more of a wake-up call that there are some very different play styles.

Making a 200Td J2 Merchant work under bk 2 requires changing the mode of thought and operations; it doesn't require changing the system. The Bk2 system for economics can, if you are careful and follow the cargo's odds, rather than some other plot, provide steady incomes; they do require some working capital. A few hundred grand is enough.

Heck, spec will allow a Bk5 designed scout courier to make a decent load income... on 20 tons of space.

Dan:
I'd bounce it based upon the 3 crew when 6 are needed. If they were cosigners, I'd let doubleups count, except the engineer. I don't let a person double up on the same type of task, since the need for extra bodies is more than just hours of maintenance. For example, many big vehicles need a mechanic and a hand to be able to perform many repairs; ex: a 6L diesel needs at least an occasional second body to be swapped out, simply to be able to maneuver and secure.

If the doubles were Pilot/Engineer and Navigator/Engineer, and Steward/Medic, sure. Anything but Engineer/Engineer, steward/steward, medic/medic, gunner/gunner.

 

[mike wightman]

Here's the same jump 3 speculative trader, designed with LBB2 revised edition


</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> 400.0T Hull - Custom 40.000
Streamlined 4.000

+57.0T Drives Section

-35.0T Jump Drive F-3 60.000
-3.0T Maneuver B-1 8.000
-19.0T Powerplant F-1 48.000


+343.0T Main Section

-120.0T Fuel x3Parsecs
-30.0T Fuel x4 Weeks

-20.0T Bridge - Standard 2.000
-3.0T Computer 3 18.000
Programs: 0.000
Maneuver: 1
Generate: 1
Navigate: 1
Jump 1P : 1
Jump 2P : 2
Jump 3P : 3
Library : 1

-56.0T Staterooms x14 7.000
Crew x6
Pass x8
-4.0T Lowberths x8 0.400
Pass x8

-2.0T Hardpoints x4 0.400

-108.0T Cargo Holds
Baggage x8T
Speculative cargo x100T

Prototype final cost: MCr189.680

Purchase final price: MCr169.020</pre>[/QUOTE]I think I'll stick with the first edition one

 

[daryen]

Dan,

You are pushing the rules pretty hard with the crew in your ship. While I can go for the steward/medic double-up, there is no way engineer/engineer will work. BTW, where are the rules allowing doubling up on the crew? I can't find it in Book 2. (I know its somewhere, I just can't find it.)

If you include the crew you are supposed to (i.e. six), then life support costs alone will almost entirely eat your profits. And, since this is the Spinward Marches we are talking about, allowing for the weapons and gunners you need will blow you out of the water.

 

[Plankowner]

On the Thread about Local Currency a table was reproduced from one of the JTAS about converting funds based on TL and Starport. All trade values given in LBB2 were supposed to be local funds.

When you do the conversion at each end of the trip into Imperial Credits, I think you can make the A2 work. The key is to pick between hi and lo TL worlds and buy the right stuff.

This "Official" tweek to the trade rules should allow you to use the Per Jump rule and still just about break even with a standard A2.

 

[robject]

Sigg, I've no idea whether a J3 free trader can make money or not. I assume its niche is smaller than that of J2 traders, but maybe range helps open that up a bit?

That would be a fun trial.

It occurs to me that a J3 might do better with speculative cargo than a J1 or J2: it's able to leverage its range to get better market pairs.

 

[daryen]

Whether we are talking about per-jump or per-parsec, even I wouldn't bother with freight in a J3 ship.

I would stick to charters (where I can set my own price to rich people needing to get from here to there quickly) or pure speculation. With J3, you should be able to get between desirable worlds quickly enough to use your ultra-trader's (or is that broker's) predictive capabilities to their fullest extent.

Of course, if I am the ref, my players aren't going to get a J3 ship. And if they do, they better not be too attached to it ...

 

[Jame]

Originally posted by Employee 2-4601:
I'm thinking of charging for cargos/passengers per parsec rather thn per jump; makes more sense that way. (MAJOR SCISSOR OPERATION ALERT!)

I suspect I'd do the same thing as this, after much study of it and possibly quite a bit of help from the players, if/when I run a campaign using the Type-H freighter, which is quite similar to Employee's Hecate (it has a Model/2, though).

 

[mike wightman]

Sorry, the reference to freight in the ships above should be speculative cargo - I'll change it.

Daryen, the CT rule for double occupancy can be found in the Staterooms section, page 14 of first edition and revised LBB2, or page 57 of The Traveller Book.

 

[mike wightman]

The idea behind the jump 3 speculative trader is that she should always be able to find a world within jump distace with favourable mods for selling her cargo.

 

[BillDowns]

I once had a J-4 passenger liner - with a small speculative cargo space - designed for an "express" loop connecting 4 subsector capitals in the Spinward Marches. It was quite profitable, but I lost the paper work. I might have to re-do that someday. The ship was either 600 or 800 tons.

Part of what made it work, was the idea of connecting the capitals with a regular "premium" service. I took the liberty of rolling first for high passengers between the capitals, per jump pricing; then filling in with high passengers for the next 4 stops. I also had a large Low passage section and just didn't take Middle Passengers. Without the speculation, it was profitable.

Did I go too far?

 

[robject]

Originally posted by daryen:
Whether we are talking about per-jump or per-parsec, even I wouldn't bother with freight in a J3 ship.

I would stick to charters (where I can set my own price to rich people needing to get from here to there quickly) or pure speculation. With J3, you should be able to get between desirable worlds quickly enough to use your ultra-trader's (or is that broker's) predictive capabilities to their fullest extent.

Of course, if I am the ref, my players aren't going to get a J3 ship. And if they do, they better not be too attached to it ...

I quite agree on all counts there, Mike. Charters or contracts take the headache out of it.

But I wouldn't give them a J3 ship, either.

 

[robject]

Originally posted by BillDowns:
I once had a J-4 passenger liner - with a small speculative cargo space - designed for an "express" loop connecting 4 subsector capitals in the Spinward Marches. [...]

Part of what made it work, was the idea of connecting the capitals with a regular "premium" service. [...]

Did I go too far?

I quote Ferris Bueller: "You can never go too far."

IMTU and all that.

 

[mike wightman]

Actually, going by the rules for chartering, you could lose more money than if you were shipping freight and high passengers

Look at the revenue from charters on LBB2(revised) page 9, or LBB7 page 39

Cr900 per ton of cargo hold, Cr9000 per high passage stateroom, Cr900 per low berth.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Daryen, the CT rule for double occupancy can be found in the Staterooms section, page 14 of first edition and revised LBB2, or page 57 of The Traveller Book.

I know about double occupancy. (And know that you still pay Cr2000 per person regardless of double or single occupancy.)

I meant doubling up jobs. For example, one person doing the job of both the pilot and the navigator. I remember seeing the rules for it (something like -1 to each skill, and drawing 80% of both salaries) but can't find it anymore.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Sigg Oddra:
Actually, going by the rules for chartering, you could lose more money than if you were shipping freight and high passengers

I know about the nonsensical "charter" rules, but wasn't refering to that.

So, replace "charter" with an equivalent word that means "client and shipowner negotiate a deal with no preset rates".

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by daryen:
I meant doubling up jobs. For example, one person doing the job of both the pilot and the navigator. I remember seeing the rules for it (something like -1 to each skill, and drawing 80% of both salaries) but can't find it anymore.

Page 16 then.

The section called Ship Crews.

 

[aramis]

The source for the multiple crew positions is on the Bk2/TTB Crew Requirements - Additional Notes (TTB p 59, LC)

Multiple Crew Positions: One person may fill two positions, but each is performed at skill level minus 1. Salary for the individual equals 75% of both position salaries.

Dan's within the letter of the rules... but well outside the spirit.