Book 3: Scouts

[Whipsnade]

Sure, they look identical, if you ignore everything including the game statistics that are different. 2g vs 4g. 4 weeks of operation vs. 1 week. Radiation shielding & solar panels vs. nothing.

Dr. Nuncheon,

So, a cutter is faster and has greater endurance? Tell me, why are using a survey pod again? (And if you think the cutter doesn't have radiation shielding you'll need to think again.)

Is it price? How many pods can you buy for one cutter and one module? A significant price advantage, say buying three or four less capable pods for the price of one cutter/module set may be enough of a difference.

Given the differences in price, performance, and capabilities, this is like saying the Beowulf and the Empress Marava are "essentially identical" simply because they're both 200-dton trading vessels.

Apples and oranges. Given that Traveller is a sci-fi game with FTL, the fact that a Marava can jump two parsecs in one week while a Beowulf can only jump one parsecs in the same time is a huge difference.

I don't think the pod is different enough from the cutter to warrant Mongoose wasting time, effort, and supplement space on it. Mongoose gave Our Olde Game some nifty new items in Scouts, so it's a shame there wasn't time or room for more.

Obviously, you and the others have a different opinion than mine. However, I've explained my opinion from a detailed meta-game standpoint, so detailed in fact that I had to use entire posts to explain the "essentially identical" concept, while your explanation of your opinions consist of "It's in the book.


Regards,
Bill

 

[captainjack]

I'm pointing out that the survey pod isn't significantly different enough from the modular cutter to justify Mongoose spending time designing it and supplement space presenting it. As I've written repeatedly in this thread, there's nearly an entire setting to describe so why not spend time on something actually different?

Well, other than noting that I seem to have become invisible in this thread, I'd say that its uniqueness is absolutely irrelevent, and that Mongoose needed to present it, because, as far as I can see, the Lab Cutter isn't detailed, and actually seems not to exist except possibly in another rules set supplement, that as far as I can tell is OOP, and pretty specialized in any case. In short, for all practical purposes, this lab cutter is essentially non-existent.

And, have either of you actually read Scout ? I ask, because the pod is from High Guard, and is nowhere statted out discussed or wasting space in Scout.

 

[Allensh]

Well, other than noting that I seem to have become invisible in this thread, I'd say that its uniqueness is absolutely irrelevent, and that Mongoose needed to present it, because, as far as I can see, the Lab Cutter isn't detailed, and actually seems not to exist except possibly in another rules set supplement, that as far as I can tell is OOP, and pretty specialized in any case. In short, for all practical purposes, this lab cutter is essentially non-existent.

And, have either of you actually read Scout ? I ask, because the pod is from High Guard, and is nowhere statted out discussed or wasting space in Scout.

Someone commenting on a book they haven't actually read? never heard of that happening here...

I haven't read it either and so have no comment to make on the book itself.

Allen

 

[Garyius2003]

And, have either of you actually read Scout ? I ask, because the pod is from High Guard, and is nowhere statted out discussed or wasting space in Scout.

I have read scouts, and the pods waste between 1/8 and 1/4 page on four different pages.

 

[captainjack]

I have read scouts, and the pods waste between 1/8 and 1/4 page on four different pages.

Well, I make it three pages, but sure, call it four. So , we are looking at about 4/6 of a page from the drawings of the pods, which could just as easily be drawing of a cutter that we have no specs for. And what the heck: two pages in high guard. So, say 2.64 pages of wasted in about 300 pages ? So, by most scientific standards, < .01 counts as non-significant . So, no problem; or at least, a non-significant one.

And, while I'm being sarcastic, I'd suggest that the page breaks and whitespace takes up more room and, as I feel most gaming art is at least as much of a waste of good idea space, it comes out on top, too.

Okay. We don't like pods. Any comments on the scout station, or the survival stations ?

 

[fiat_knox]

Scout Personnel

I thought they got a good mix of scout NPCs for that Scout base. The cynical higher echelon personnel (they always seem to be somewhat discontent, if not outright malcontent, don't they?), the Scout crew full of Nobles (how they got involved with the Scouts is a subject of much amusement), and The Spud - a NPC which, at first, I thought was some poor benighted sod with the Innsmouth Look (as evinced by the picture) but which turned out to be, worse, an android.

I really can't see The Spud ever getting as much fan mail as Data from Next Gen ...

 

[drnuncheon]

Dr. Nuncheon,

So, a cutter is faster and has greater endurance? Tell me, why are using a survey pod again?

That question right there tells me you haven't even bothered looking at the stats, because it's the survey pod that has the greater endurance.

Try again?

J

 

[captainjack]

I thought they got a good mix of scout NPCs for that Scout base. The cynical higher echelon personnel (they always seem to be somewhat discontent, if not outright malcontent, don't they?), the Scout crew full of Nobles (how they got involved with the Scouts is a subject of much amusement), and The Spud - a NPC which, at first, I thought was some poor benighted sod with the Innsmouth Look (as evinced by the picture) but which turned out to be, worse, an android.

I really can't see The Spud ever getting as much fan mail as Data from Next Gen ...

Heh. I wrote up him for the crew -originally, the spud was someone with an Innsmouth look -and was part of an odd plotline - I can't remember why we changed him to an android, actually.

My call is that he's a mainly independent android lab assistant, but rather than being an AyBee type, he's from the school of Terry Pratchett's Igors -he likes to fiddle with himself, but unfortunately, he started with his own brain.......

 

[Jame]

Okay. We don't like pods. Any comments on the scout station, or the survival stations ?

I don't mind the pods, but wish they weren't supposed to be ubiquitous.

Now, on to the scout station (there were survival stations? Where?). The station was good, with an ... interesting crew; my thing was that there weren't any specific buildings designed for use in building one's own scout station - i.e. no suggestions for housing, hangars, storage and etcetera, and not much room for changing around the various types of ships (e.g. no suggestions for replacing the lab ship with a Donosev or switching the free trader with a fat trader or far trader). That and there weren't any suggestions for base crew size.

On the other hand, I like how they put in a base generation method at all, so it's more to the good than to the bad, especially as it gave suggestions for base sizes at civilian ports.

 

[captainjack]

I don't mind the pods, but wish they weren't supposed to be ubiquitous.

Now, on to the scout station (there were survival stations? Where?). The station was good, with an ... interesting crew; my thing was that there weren't any specific buildings designed for use in building one's own scout station - i.e. no suggestions for housing, hangars, storage and etcetera, and not much room for changing around the various types of ships (e.g. no suggestions for replacing the lab ship with a Donosev or switching the free trader with a fat trader or far trader). That and there weren't any suggestions for base crew size.

On the other hand, I like how they put in a base generation method at all, so it's more to the good than to the bad, especially as it gave suggestions for base sizes at civilian ports.

Without starting another kafuffle about pods, why are people assuming they are ubiquitous ? I saw them as being fairly recent (say 12-15 years, perhaps)additions to the scout service, part of an administrative change toward the "survey rider" theory of operations; and most likely a desire to fill a gap between the cutters and sending a type S.

Other than the metagame issues of the lab cutters (stats ?), there are disadvantages to having modular ships for dedicated missions -one is that procurement will likely end up having more modules than hulls, and each lab cutter on any kind of long term mission means one less whatever tyoe cutter for the duration of the mission.

The base crew is as it is because its built around an actual campaign location - in some ways, it represents how a station gets after players have been there for a while.

The station I asked about is the Modular survey station (Terrapin Class). I'm curious to know what people think of that.

The survival stations are found in the section detailing the modules for the Frontiersman - the Turtle I and II class modules -which can be mounted on a frontiersman, but are far more often left in position.



As to the base stuff -well, heck, I never thought of that. Good idea, though.
But then, I didn't think of the survival section, either, which Loz did, and is really really cool. So, everything preempts something, I guess.

 

[fiat_knox]

The section on wilderness survival was, like the section on the metallic elements in Beltstrike, spot on. I liked the survival mechanics, such as stress tests for individuals etc., and also the fact that survival emphasised the human skill and upon maintaining a positive attitude and adaptability to rapidly changing circumstances in the local environment, rather than overreliance upon high tech toys which could fail one at any time.

 

[Kilgs]

I’m in an odd position. I hate GURPS but have been buying up the GURPS books for fluff. I received MgT Scouts and First In on the same day. I’ve now read both of them and compared them to the CT version of Scouts. So…

MgT Scouts is decent. I agree with the above poster that the Survival chapter is excellent. Just enough to make things interesting, not so much that I need to pull out a calculator. I skimmed over the world creation. Frankly it seems odd to even have it in there… they even mention that another book (Worlds) is going to do it better. So why even put it in there in the first place? That being said, if I was a novice to Trav, I may prefer the easy design. But since I’ve been steadily creeping into the “more detail” department, it seemed like a waste of pages to me.

The Scout base and ships are cool. I like the Scout base diagram and the terrapin stations. I was really hoping to get a good-sized Scout expedition ship that had room for diplomats, security, scientists etc. Something that could be used in a post-Long Night scenario.

The Scout Organization is a pale variant from CT/GURPS except they take out the Security arm and S3. Bad move, IMO. I think CT and GURPS did it better while keeping the “Scouts” as a group of incredible, independent and lone wolf type people. Both of those books played up the dangers in First Contact and other aspects of the organization. I did like the expanded goals and duties of the Scouts organization in the espionage realm. That was a neat way of making (what everyone knows Scouts do) the Scouts a bit more covert.

I definitely like the First Contact mission checklists and tasks. They’re nice and simple, providing more than enough room for gaming within them. And the Abort Mission criteria was good for laughs.

The Detached Duty section was great. Even if the ticket system was copied and pasted from Mercenary. It was still a great lead-in to the roles of DD Scouts. And I liked the SIN.

Overall, I think it’s a good book. But I think Mongoose’s tendency to try to generalize the supplements to fit into a non-OTU setting is starting to do more harm than good. I think it was a solid book but it kinda dilutes the Scouts. Lacks a certain feel that is part and parcel of the IISS. The GURPS book does this in spades. It really gives you a feel for the esprit de corps and the mission of the Scouts. The MgT book tends to make it sound like any non-OTU setting is going to have something like the Scouts and “it should look something like this”.

SUGGESTIONS-

1. Um… proof-reading. I’m a decent reader/writer and I caught errors in a number of places. Check out how many years in a term for the sample character... There was not so many as to detract or confuse but, given Mongoose’s record, enough to notice and note that they still haven’t fixed the problem.

2. Split the books. Go OTU and non-Trav in different books. Don’t try to do both with a 100p book. The generalization is starting to hurt the product. There are a large number of us out there who want to play TRAVELLER. If we wanted generic space, we'd play HERO, GURPS, or any number of generic crap-tacular systems. The fanbase is Traveller, even the new fans, so make sure you're giving us what we want.

3. Spend some more time on these books. Mongoose is hammering them out too fast. I want to see a bit more love and detail put into place. “Color” as it were. The GURPS books are great for this with POV monologues, quotes, tidbits about the OTU and OTU secrets.

4. Still a quality product. I recommend it as a B-.

 

[Original_Carl]

I've read Scouts up through the equipment and ships. My players have been bugging me for a way to "peek" into neighboring, unexplored parsecs and see if there is a gas giant before jumping blind into the system. It looks like they're going to finally get their wish with the survey equipment included with Scouts, so that's good.

Character creation looked pretty good. We rolled up a couple of scouts using the book and that went well, until I got to the character creation example. Since when has the starting age been 16? Is this new for scouts only, or can everyone start their character at 16 years of age? Note that doing this means you have to make your aging roll in the middle of your 5th term versus the end of your 4th term, as per the Pocket Edition. I'm only half-serious. I think starting the example character at 16 was a typographical error. I hope it was.

I fanned through the book several times, but I neglected to see this new world creation system I'm hearing about on this thread. I'll have to go home and read the book cover-to-cover now.

I'm happy with my acquisition. I'm still happy with Mongoose Traveller.

 

[rancke]

I've read Scouts up through the equipment and ships. My players have been bugging me for a way to "peek" into neighboring, unexplored parsecs and see if there is a gas giant before jumping blind into the system. It looks like they're going to finally get their wish with the survey equipment included with Scouts, so that's good.

Explorer campaign where no man has gone before, eh? Otherwise they could just look it up in their library data.


Hans

 

[Original_Carl]

2. Split the books. Go OTU and non-Trav in different books. Don’t try to do both with a 100p book. The generalization is starting to hurt the product. There are a large number of us out there who want to play TRAVELLER. If we wanted generic space, we'd play HERO, GURPS, or any number of generic crap-tacular systems. The fanbase is Traveller, even the new fans, so make sure you're giving us what we want.

I want generic space and I don't want to play HERO or GURPS. The less setting-specific these books are, the better it is for me and my group. I'm getting what I want from these books. I'm sorry you're not.

3. Spend some more time on these books. Mongoose is hammering them out too fast. I want to see a bit more love and detail put into place. “Color” as it were. The GURPS books are great for this with POV monologues, quotes, tidbits about the OTU and OTU secrets.

I would rather this sort of "color" be kept out of the books. POV monologues, quotes and tidbits about someone else's setting I can do without. In my opinion this kind of thing only serves to narrow the window of possibilities for my own Traveller Universe. It's akin to getting a coloring book where the pictures are already half-done.

Also, I tire of in-character stories quickly. If I want to read sci-fi, I'll pick up a paperback novel from one of the many fine authors on the market right now, or a classic like For Love of Mother-Not or Foundation. I don't want to have several pages of my game book filled up with half-baked prose and "facts" about someone else's fictional universe.

At some point you cannot seperate Traveller from its setting. There would be no Scout service, no Imperium, no Navy, etc. These things are integral to Traveller as a game. I would like the game to contain only as much color as is necessary to act as a jumping off point into my own universe. If you need more than that, Mongoose has two fine products (Babylon 5 and Hammer's Slammers) and there are a number of other sci-fi settings, including Traveller Universe products from other editions to help you out.

At some point, I expect Mongoose will publish a Traveller Universe book that will cover the Imperium and the Imperial Court, include subsector maps, and other materials to offer fans an Official Traveller Universe. In the meantime, I'd prefer that Firefly and Farscape, Star Trek and Space 1999 all be equal possibilities within my Traveller game. The way the books are being presented now, they are.

 

[Original_Carl]

Explorer campaign where no man has gone before, eh? Otherwise they could just look it up in their library data.

I left a few parsecs as "No Data Available" on the subsector map. They're marked as having a star, but nothing beyond that. I wanted to leave a little mystery in there. A subsector is a big place, 26 x 32 light years. I figured some systems survey data could expire, be lost, or maybe never entered into the library. Maybe a scout jumped in, said, "There's a sun here. Next system!" and that's all that made it into the database along with a notation to, "Explore further as time permits."

We had two near-death experiences in our last session. One in which they got a little too close to a gas giant while refuelling and the ship almost broke up, followed by a narrowly-avoided mis-jump. If the ship goes down, I'm considering a scout/survey campaign in a minimally-mapped subsector.

 

[ThunderChilde]

Age 16 is for a Belter starting age only. It's in Beltstrike, and a hold over from CT on that score.

 

[captainjack]

I fanned through the book several times, but I neglected to see this new world creation system I'm hearing about on this thread. I'll have to go home and read the book cover-to-cover now.

There isn't one. Its a quick and dirty set of rules for gnerating the basics of a sytem, mainly for placing the mainworld, belts and GG, with some basic (nonuwp) data about the other planets. It's based off of Jump shadows and orbits - loosly defined. It's explicitly not a detailed system generation which will be in another book.

 

[Psion]

There isn't one. Its a quick and dirty set of rules for gnerating the basics of a sytem, mainly for placing the mainworld, belts and GG, with some basic (nonuwp) data about the other planets. It's based off of Jump shadows and orbits - loosly defined. It's explicitly not a detailed system generation which will be in another book.

Yep. It's a nice little sketchy detail thing for those "we don't need no steenkin science" refs, some of which I could name off of the top of my head.

It is not, however, a group that includes me.

In a way, that sort of makes it the anti-CT-scouts, which was all about planetological details (let's not dwell overlong on the fact the formulae were wrong in many places...)

 

[Original_Carl]

There isn't one.

That explains why I didn't notice it.

I've been leaning toward Astro Synthesis as my universe creator. It seems pretty science-y (nods to Psion). I intend to add my own UWP data based on the values that program calculates along with the 100-diameter limit for each major object there.

So, what's up with 16 as the starting age? Do I have to be a "belter" to start at 16? Do you still get your starting skills for your home planet?