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Campaign Idea

Traveller makes a distinction between "Noble" (Knight, Baronet, Baron, Marquis, Count Duke, Archduke) and Peer (Baronet, Baron, Marquis, Count, Duke, Archduke) explicitly,
Explicit? Where?

"The second [sic.] level of noble rank is the baron, the lowest level accorded membership in the peerage." (Emphasis mine) [IE:15]​
...and by use, Royals (Grand Count, Grand Duke, Prince, Imperial Consort, Emperor/Empress-sovereign).
Use where? I've never heard about Imperial grand counts and grand dukes before.

Real life early English Baronets were NOT usually hereditary. The remainder are the few who are descendant from those few who were granted heritable titles. It was the Crown raising monies by sale of titles later. Likewise, the crown has since done away with the right of knighting of the eldest son of baronets.
Early baronets, no. Later baronets, yes.

"Rating immediately below the peers are the baronets who, like knights, are prefixed by 'Sir', but whose title, unlike that of knight, is hereditary" [The Observer's Book of HERALDRY by Charles MacKinnon, p. 121]​


Also, note that the Wikipedia entry is NOT well written, but every time a pursuivant tries to edit it, especially using references like Fox-Davies, it gets changed back to "wrong"... or at least "vague"... http://www.answers.com/topic/baronet has a better essay.
The very first sentence of that reference claims that baronets are commoners.

The fact that someone holds more than one title, one of them a peerage and the other a knighthood or baronetcy does not mean that knights and baronets are nobles in their own right.


Hans
 
The problem, Hans, is that the UK altered the medieval terms, where Knights were considered to be of the lowest rungs of the nobility, and has redefined them successively over time.

As for Imperial knights being Nobles, see: MT PH p10, p22, p27; MT IE p8, p14; CT S11, p34, 35; CT S04 p8

p10: "Those with Social Standing B + (11 or greater) are considered to be noble, and may assume their family’s hereditary title. Noble titles are commonly used, even if the individual is not engaged in local government. At the discretion of the referee, the noble may have some ancestral lands or fiefs on his or her homeworld."

p22: (Ranks of noble careers and notes on table)

p27: "Social Standing (SOC): A character’s social class. Standing 11 + holds a patent of nobility from the Third Imperium or similar interstellar governments. The individual is considered noble."

MT IE p8: "There is only one legitimate means to ascend to the iridium throne: by confirmation of the Moot, that governing body composed of all nobles (baron and above) of the Imperium." Emphasis mine. Note that Knights and Baronets are nobles by definitions in the PM, but are not "Nobles of the Imperium" but are nobles of a given domain.

MT IE, p14: "NOBLE RANKS
The lowest noble rank is knight; the highest is emperor (although the emperor and his family are not members of the Moot and in fact are prohibited from entering the Moot Spire on Capital unless invited by the body).
" Emphasis original.

Ibid.:
"Knight: The lowest of noble ranks is knight, which is awarded
by the emperor or an archduke as an honorific rank in recognition
of achievement or service: as such, a knighthood is coveted
by nonnobles and is seen as more attainable than membership
in the peerage.
" Emphasis original.

Ibid: "Knights are not members of the peerage and are thus not
subject to all protocols. Knights instead belong to orders of
knighthood and are awarded privileges according to the order.
"

Clearly, MT IE and MT PM uniformly use Knights as Nobles, but Peers only for barons and above, and strongly implies by the Emperor's list citation that knights and Baronets are not "imperial" nobles but members of the domain orders.

CT S11, p34: The nobility includes within it a subset called the peerage, consisting of all nobles except knights and baronets. Except in extraordinary situations, to hold a high office in the lmperial bureaucracy, a person must be a peer (although not all peers hold office). This addresses multiple of your erroneous assertions, Hans...
1) it is clear that CT fluff also makes Knights nobles in the Imperium, and,
2) That high offices in the bureaucracy require peerages, not just the Grand Admirals


S11 p35: "NOBLE RANKS
"The lowest noble rank is knight; the highest level is archduke. (Above the archdukes is the special station accorded members of the lmperial family, but they are not considered part of the nobility.)
" Emphasis Original. Note that this makes a royals distinction, but not by that term.

CT S04, p8: "The noble career is open only (and automatically) to persons with Social 10+. Rank corresponds to noble rank (taken from Social Standing) once position is achieved." Note that rank B is Knight, on the table immediately below the quoted paragraph.

CT agrees with MT. Knights are nobles, but not peers, and not "imperial nobles" but are nobles. Their nobility is a function of the Archdukal authority (explicit) and since they are explicitly also nobles, and explicitly not "Imperial Nobles", Imperial Nobles is a function of being a Peer, a vassal of the Emperor, rather than a vassal of an Archduke (even if that archduke is ALSO the emperor).
 
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The problem, Hans, is that the UK altered the medieval terms, where Knights were considered to be of the lowest rungs of the nobility, and has redefined them successively over time.
You may be right. It's not the impression I've gathered, but I'm not an expert on the subject. When I claim that knights and baronets are not nobles, I'm talking about current usage and relying on sources that talk about current usage.

As for Imperial knights being Nobles, see: MT PH p10, p22, p27; MT IE p8, p14; CT S11, p34, 35; CT S04 p8

The essays do indeed say that baronets are "a special form of baron". They also claim that knights are part of the Imperial nobility. Apparently usage of the term 'noble' has changed by the Classic Era. I'll try to remember in the future.

[...]

As for the Imperial nobility, it's a nuisance that it is almost, but not quite like Real Life nobles, but give me a few days to adjust and I'll be all right with it. ;)
In other words, I agreed with you. The other parts of that post dealt with present-day knights and baronets. Which my sources informed me were NOT nobles. In Britain. Today.

CT agrees with MT. Knights are nobles, but not peers, and not "imperial nobles" but are nobles. Their nobility is a function of the Archdukal authority (explicit) and since they are explicitly also nobles, and explicitly not "Imperial Nobles", Imperial Nobles is a function of being a Peer, a vassal of the Emperor, rather than a vassal of an Archduke (even if that archduke is ALSO the emperor).
Where does it say explicitly that they're not Imperial nobles[*]? That would actually fit in very well with my IMTU notion that planetary nobles are given Imperial knighthoods that corresponds to their place on the social ladder, but I've never claimed that notion as canon. (I've claimed that it OUGHT to be canon (because there's little or no room for planetary nobility on the Traveller social ladder -- there's an entire chuck of society missing from it), but that's by the way).

[*] EDIT: Never mind, I spotted it. Forces us to distinguish between nobles IN the Imperium and nobles OF the Imperium, which is a tad clumsy, but why not?​


Hans
 
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Ranke2 said:
Where does it say explicitly that they're not Imperial nobles[*]? That would actually fit in very well with my IMTU notion that planetary nobles are given Imperial knighthoods that corresponds to their place on the social ladder, but I've never claimed that notion as canon. (I've claimed that it OUGHT to be canon (because there's little or no room for planetary nobility on the Traveller social ladder -- there's an entire chuck of society missing from it), but that's by the way).

[*] EDIT: Never mind, I spotted it. Forces us to distinguish between nobles IN the Imperium and nobles OF the Imperium, which is a tad clumsy, but why not?


Hans

Or just use "Imperial Nobles" as a euphamism for peer, since the Domain Nobles still hold patents issued via the Imperium.
 
what a can of worms

ok. I decided to go with the referee's opton and lower that down 2 ranks to a D. He started out at B during the rolls, so it would be more in line.
Then one as an attache, one at Captain, another as an aide and then two on mustering out. So, I think I'll ignore the mustering out rolls. Instead, give the storyline that as an aide with medical, he was in the right place at the right time to save some brass ass. Strings were pulled and as an act of gratitude, this chance for colonization/exploitation rights was put forward (behind closed doors, of course). I know, all rather staged, but so much of life really is. Now then, where is the cue for colonization applications? lol
 
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