Canada During and After the Twilight War.

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Canada by Regions: The Quebec Question.

I've begun this post a couple of times. This post is to provide fodder for a game. But in the real world from which this game draws it's historical meat and predictions, there is hardly a more emotional debate for canadians from coast to coast. Quebec separatism, it's roots and consequences is part of a Canadian Students historical and citizenship schooling from an early age. Whenever the issues cease to be an undercurrent in society and begin to flow into public debate The more knowledgeable of us try to educate the more ignorant of us. I'm not sure I can do justice to all that I've been taught in school and by my fellow Canadians. but here goes:

Background: Francophone Quebec is argueably the most robust and best known of the french speaking cultures that evolved out of New France, (the Occupation by Louis XIV of an area stretching west to the Great Lakes and South down the Mississipi as far as Louisiana) It is not the only one, but it is one that has done the best job of dominating the politics of its cultural domain.

Issues of conflict, conquest, second class treatment (sometimes Alleged, depending on who you talk to), And mutual ignorance (one Federal study of the problem was titled "Twin Solitudes") Have resulted in a portion of Quebec's population seriously believing that they do not get a fair shake from a (to their eyes) monolithic and backstabbing 'English Canada'. Said persons believe that they have a destiny as a proud independant nation.

Two province wide referenda have been held on the subject. Both losses for the 'yes' or separatist side. The second one, held in the Early to Mid 1990's (just before the time of the beginning of the twilight war) was a real close call. Infact, you could argue it was a loss because those who were a afraid they weren't 'Vrais Quebequois' (true Quebeccers) in the eyes of the Partie Quebequois (The Governing Party at the time), Voted uniformally 'NO'.

Qubec is the joker in the deck of Canadian Unity. If it leaves, The Maritimes become isolated, The Gulf of the st. Lawrence and the mouth of the St. Lawrence River become 'Foreign Territory' (thus denying all Great Lakes Ports their function as international seaports.) And a precedent is set for the western provinces. Likewise, but less so if Quebec uses the threat of separation to negotiate a more favourable status vis a vis the other provinces. This is something other provinces (especially the west) have accused Qubec of doing before and there may be a temptation on the part of westerners to stare down the barrel of the gun they feel Quebec is holding to Canada's head and dare it to pull the trigger.

If neither of the above happen, Federal Canada's hand remains MUCH stronger. A Soviet invasion of Canada may present sufficient external threat to keep all Canadians thinking in terms of US and them rather 'me and you'... maybe...

Quebec is home to some of the oldest living cities in Canada. The two largest are La Ville de Quebec (Qubec City) and Montreal (Mont Royale >> Mount Royal).

Quebec city is the provincial capital, a tourist spot (Vieux (old) Quebec) and a Major Port City. Retaurants featuring Parisian or Belgian or other Franco-european cuisine abound.(It is also the place where some of the greasiest graviest cheesiest Poutine is served McDonald's McPoutine is NO Match) It is the home of both the heart of the Partie Quebequois and the most visible symbols of former British Rule.

Montreal fills an island in the St Lawrence to overflowing. Just west of Montreal is the Lachine (La Chine >>> The China) Rapids. Montreal is the furthest west an ocean going vessel can travel without making use of the Canals of the St. Lawrence Seaway.

Until the 70's Montreal was the Corporate and Banking Capital of Canada. When the PQ earned power and held it, 'Nationalising' a lot of corporate assests, and enacting 'Language laws' which some Anglophones (especially the older ones who headed corporations) found difficult to cope with, many of these head offices migrated to Toronto. Montreal was also the home of the '67 olympics and a huge world's fair (Montreal Expo I forget which year but since I was 18 months old at the time I presume '68) The Olympic Stadium and the Geodesic Dome from the Expo can still be seen there today.

Militarially Quebec has some shipbuilding assets which in the 90's would be in the midst of either building Canada's current supply of new ships or placing upgrade packages on her old ones.

There are some Airforce Assets, A prestigious Canadian Forces Military College that was only closed in the Mid to Late 90's and a along with some reserves, the 'Van Doos' (le Vingt-Deuxieme (22e) Regiment of the Royal Canadian Armed Forces)

Hydro Quebec has an incredible supply of electric power which is sells to the North American grid. There is an often stalled,(and I -believe- incomplete but partially built) and ambitious dam project in Northern Quebec that promises a Huge supply of electric power AND a lot of Ecological damage to the basin around James Bay. While rural Quebec is largely agrarian there's also a forestry industry and several mines. Quebec has also been the home of a few Canadian Inventors: Bombardier, the inventer of the snowmobile. Bombardier plants today make everything from Subway cars to the ILTIS (Canada's JEEP - looks like stripped down Volkswagon Golf with a ragtop)

Quebec has produced many of Canada's Prime Ministers. Including the Current One.

I hope this does justice to the topic. Questions.. I will answers, requests that I correct any misrepresentation or over simplification in the above I will discuss and hopefully come to a compromise.

Flames will be ignored.

 

[TKalbfus]

I just had a rather interesting thought. France is largely intact in the Twilight 2000 world. Imagine if the French Aircraft Carrier Charles Du Gaul were to steam into the Gulf of Saint Lawrence and up the Saint Lawrence river to Quebec City. Someone in Paris might smell an opportunity to regain a lost colony. Of course initially it will be on a mission of mercy. The French will be very interested in getting Quebec up and running again and they would have a full arsenal of weapons at their disposal including Mirage Jets. They'll probably want to set up an airbase or two in order to control the skies over Quebec. I'm not sure how the Quebec people would react to this, some of them may want independence, but perhaps not as subjects of the newly forming French Empire. Perhaps France stayed neutral for just this very reason. Northern New Yorkers might live fairly close to the scene of this action and I doubt many of them would sympathise with the French, of course they don't want to get killed either, much of them would likely have escaped the nuclear holocaust in this region of New York. Resistance leaders might hide out here though. The French might at first be reluctant to send their troops down into New York, since all their interested in at this point is Quebec, but if guerillas become troublesome enough and with the US in its disordered state they might try to take advantage of the situation. There is alot of opportunities for adventure here.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Ah... Ummm... No. I don't -Think- so...

I mean... do you really think the Dutch navy is going to Sail into New York harbour in order to 'liberate' New Amsterdam? Or that the French again have an interest in an Independant Louisiana? Sorry man. I think that's a superficial and facile concept. Someone who knows more about International politics than I do may prove me wrong but... no. I really don't think so. This is about or even less likely than a British Fleet steaming over to reenact the battle of Washington in the war of 1812. It has been said of France that "They never Forget, and they never Learn" but I really don't think they're THAT exclusively obessed with NA's 'New France' Past.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

This DOES remind me of an interesting fact though.

The Nation of France extends across the Atlantic to a the tiny, St. Peire and Miquelon Islands just off the southern coast of Nfld. Like the rest of the Maritimes it depends on the (now Depleted ) fisheries of the Grand Banks.

There are also several islands in the Gulf and the waters surounded by it and the Maritime provinces that belong to the Province of Quebec and I'm sure I mentioned that Quebec borders on Labrador, and New Brunswick.

There may, for the imaginative Ref, be possibilties there. While I think the French have other fish to fry. It doesn't mean they wouldn't be above lending smaller scale support or that they wouldn't get huffy if St. Peirre and Miquelon got caught in the crossfire of some sort of Maritime war. Thanks Tom. My initial response might have been overly negative. I -still- don't see the heavy handed and overt scenario you describe. But an absolute dissmisal of French involvement seems... Unwise as well.

 

[TKalbfus]

I was thinking specifically of what Mexico did to the United States after World War III in the Twilight 2000/Traveller 2300 timeline where they grabbed the American Southwest including Texas and California because those were former Mexican territories. I was thinking that France could be Canada's Mexico or at least they'd try to be. I was wondering why France would suddenly become neutral at the onset of World War III, is it simply that they were a Nation of cowards, or was it that they had nefarious scemes to hatch at our expense.
France never really liked the United States anyway, they supported the US during our Revolutionary War because they wanted to break up the British Empire and in the confusion make a grab back for Canada, they succeeded in the first part but failed in the second. France was somewhat supportive of the Confederate States of America, because they wanted to break up a former chunk of the British Empire even further, as it wasn't small enough already for them not to be threatened by it. France held their noses when we had to save their bacon in World War I and II, and held their gratitude as well because we humiliated them by not allowing them to save themselves using their own devices. In the World of Twilight 2000, World War III was their revenge for this perceived humiliation. So I kind of suspect that France would normally be up to no good, if they were up to anything at least in the context of the game they grabbed a piece of Germany. Old Napoleonic ambitions rarely die with them. The real France, I don't know, they could be that way if given a chance, I hope not.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

And my point is that with. "Napoleonic Ambitions" they'd have other fish to fry.

Why would they bother with 'former British Empire' when Britain is Right there? If they really wanted to get 'revanchist' They owe Germany for wwii, wwi, 1870, and the Prussians at least for Waterloo. (as well as Britain). I honestly don't see them commiting major resources. on the other hand... I wouldn't put it above a fictional France in a game to do just about anything (ditto actually for any Gov.)


I'm just working with what I happen to know and believe many of my non-canadian fellow gamers might not know to try and provide some resources for a more credible canada in the game.

As I see often on these pages: Your Mileage May Vary.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

While we are on the subject of villianous invasions.

It would be (too) easy to paint a die-hard nationlist Quebec as percieving themselves as the Inheritors of new France and starting a war of conquest all on their own. I think this is more credible than an invasion by modern France but... I have my doubts about how believable it is in the absolute sense.

Here's one for you Tom, What does the original T2K say about a minority our nations share? What are the Native or Aboriginal groups up to? There's a lot of bitterness among most of the citizens of those groups and THEY haven't forgetton how the lland that comprises both our countries (in their eyes at least, if not to some of ours) was esentially stolen. What are they doing?

 

[TKalbfus]

Here's one for you Tom, What does the original T2K say about a minority our nations share? What are the Native or Aboriginal groups up to? There's a lot of bitterness among most of the citizens of those groups and THEY haven't forgetton how the lland that comprises both our countries (in their eyes at least, if not to some of ours) was esentially stolen. What are they doing?

--------------------
Garf.

Good point, well the way I see it, they got their "revenge" when the nuclear attacks came, killing a disproportionate number of whites, blacks, hispanics and other city dwellers while sparing most of the native Americans who live on reservations and in the countryside, since they live far away from everything including nuclear targets. These "indians' sacrificed the good life by staying on their remote reservations to preserve their identity, and in the process managed to avoid getting killed by nuclear bombs, they are the ultimate survivalists. Most native Americans don't live in tepees or other such aboriginal huts anymore, they prefer to work and live in the modern world. A nuclear war would forcen them back into a more traditional lifestyle, although most Native Americans these days are Christians, they are a proud people. I don't think they'd necessarily try to scalp any white people they'd come across.

On the subject of France, yes, they do have other fish to fry like Germany, but the people of Quebec speak French, the French might think that they'd be easier to turn into french people than it would be to turn Germans into French people. The French-German language barrier is sure to guarantee German resistance to French rule for a long time to come. Likewise Anglo-Canadians have more in common with USA-Americans that they do with Mexicans. The language barrier presents a formidable social barrier.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Allow me to rephrase.

What form do you think the Political entities.
The Native American Nations.
The First Nations.
The Six Nations.

Will take when they no longer have to kowtow to (_to their minds_ ) a foreign government of occupation? What shape do you think these new/old nations will take? which territories will they occupy, what will their alliance structure be like?

 

[Antares Administration]

Originally posted by Garf:
The Geologic Regions are as follows:

Appalachia - The bedrock of the Applachian mountain range, if not arguably some of the hills themselves, Sweeps right through the 'Maritime' Provinces of Canada's East Coast: New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, and the Island of Newfoundland (Aka 'The Rock').

The Canadian/PreCamberian shield This is a Huge swatch of absolutely ancient (The PreCambrian period is the Oldest Geological timezone) Granite or Granitized bedrock. It covers a broad swath of Canada; Just about all of Quebec from just north of the St. Lawrence lowlands to beneath to Ice pack on the north coast. It covers all of Ontario except for the 'Golden Horseshoe' (The Niagra Escarpment, Toronto region and the coast of Lakes Ontario and Erie) and a little bit of lowlands on the southwest coasts of Hudson and James bays. It completely occupies the Ontario Manitoba border and sweeps Nortwest, occupying the nothern third of Saskatchewan, a tiny corner of Alberta and pretty close to all of what was once known as the 'Northewest Territories' (now mostly known as Nunavit).

This Hard uneven bedrock with it's thin topsoil is unsuited for farming (though some dairy farms and small produce farms exist). And while not really mountainous, it is too rugged, full of unexpected ravines and hillocks (all covered with dense boreal forest) to be really suitable for any military ground force other than Leg Infantry.

The Interior Plains are the northern continuation of the american 'Great Plains' This is Canada's 'Midwest', and what makes Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta the 'Praire Provinces' The two big industries in these regions are the Agribusiness and Oil. Alberta is especially Rich in oil and Natural Gas and the Alberta 'Tar Sands' represent one of the biggest oil fields in the world.


The Western Cordillera, also extends up through Canada. The southern dogleg of the Alberta/British Columbia border runs right through the heart of that section of the rocky mountains, But as the mountain range proceeds North and West it become entirely within the Province of BC. BC is Sandwiched Neatly between Alaska and Washinton State. And is basically a land of Mountains and seacoast. Forestry and Fishing are the principal industries here but far from the only ones.

(More to follow)

Actually, Garf, the way that they're teaching it now, there are two other regions: the Great Lakes/St. Lawrence Lowlands and the Arctic Cordillera.

You allude to the 'Golden Horseshoe', but the GL/SL Lowlands include rich farmlands, potential fisheries, and many of the highest population centers in the country: Toronto and the Golden Horseshoe, Montreal (incl. Laval and other centres), and others.

The Northern Cordillera is really the Arctic Islands: Baffin, Ellesmere and such. Poor climate, no topsoil, low population of primarily hunter/gatherers, but a potential wealth of natural resources.

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[Antares Administration]

Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
I wonder though whether the Soviets would have nuked Toronto. Part of the idea of starting a war would be to conquer something. Something of value has to be left over to take otherwise the effort is a waisted exercise.

You're thinking limited war versus total war (war with WMD, etc). In a limited war, you fight with objectives like capturing territory or resources. Total war is all about denial and destruction: deny the enemy the use of his WMD or destroy the enemy's conventional forces or industrial base.

...Also if we talk about Canada we should also talk about Alaska since to get into Canada, the Soviets would have to go through Alaska. the whole Canada/Alaska area should be treated as one region. the Soviets aren't going to give a damn about where the border is unless Canada was leaning toward neutrality, in which case they might seek to negotiate a passage through to the lower 48 states. Needless to say, the US would take a dim view of such a pact, might not care about the US/Canada border and seek to stop the Soviet advance before it reached the lower 48 states.

Alaska is one bridgehead, Greenland is the other. Greenland has enough developed airbases and infracture to serve as an invasion bridgehead into North America. Of course you'd have to cross significant bodies of water twice (at least): Europe to Greenland, then Greenland to Labrador. Alaska or Labrador, the point here is that transportation infrastructure simply does not provide the means to support a large expeditionary force across either Alaska or Labrador. Roads and railroads with adequate capacity simply don't exist. Air movement and resupply are possible, but the two Gulf Wars proved that using air resources to move iron bombs and other massive materials is a very limited and expensive way to fight a war. The only other option is maritime. This option would look and feel a lot like the Norway campaign in WW2: leapfroging forces along a coastline.

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Thanks for mentioning the Lowlands Paul. I only vaguely alluded to them.

Partially because my ancient atlas still has Tobbacco farming as the big cash crop of the Niagra escarpment and I KNOW there's been um... inovations there. and partially I was trying to speak on the broadest of terms.

It is the St. Lawrence Lowlands that made Quebec a "largely Agrarian society"

That fertile strip just south of the Laurentian Mountains (another feature I didn't describe though geologically the Laurentians are part of the Sheild) Is still home to quite a bit of Quebec and Quebec Farm produce.

Thanks for the heads up on the Artic Cordillera. I don't recall learning about that in school (though to my teacher's credit there's a LOT I've forgotten).

I REALLY appreciate you posts. I hope I'm not overwhelming the people who want to learn something from this thread though.

 

[Antares Administration]

Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I can't see a Soviet/Canada non-aggression pact in a 'traditional' scenario evolving out of the cold war.

I'd give it little credence myself. Canada might not like being in the USA's shadow, but they'd like being in the USSR's even less. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree absolutely.

Canada's and the USA's military would probably be a bit more robust in this alternate history at the start date of WWIII, than at that same date in our own history. One thing that would be interesting would be starting the T2000 campaign at the very beginning of World War III before any nukes started flying, before the general mobilization. PCs could start as either civilians or soldiers. If I recall properly WWIII went on for 2 years before going nuclear, that is enough time for the PCs to receive their draft notices, go to boot camp, be issued their equipment and be sent to their units. This would allow some time for some conventional war fighting before things really go to hell with the nukes, it would also give some background on how this world is different from our own.

It's interesting to look back on Canada's war plans in the late 70s and early 80s, before the fall of the wall changed everything. In the mid-70s, Canada had separate forces committed to different NATO theatres: Special Service Force (airborne/airmobile brigade group) and 5e Groupe de Brigade (Quebec and Maritime-based) going to Northern Flank (Norway). 4 Mech Brigade Group (garrisoned in Germany) and 1 Brigade Group (Prairie-based) to CENTAG (Southern Germany).

Canadian defence planners finally got the politicians to realize that the willy-nilly brigades were spread too thin and were unsustainable. The result was the creation of the ORBAT (only notional) for a new 1 Canadian Corps, and the re-activation of 1 Cdn Mech Div. By 1990, we were out of Norway (except for NATO Joint Rapid Reaction Forces), and 1 Div actually planned and began exercising a Mech Div for Germany, based upon 4 and 5 Bde Groups, reinforced by 1 Bde Group. On mobilization, there would have been enough time to deploy 1 Div, and train and deploy at least one of the two additional divisions and many of the Corps' support formations as well.

Although the Corps was never actually created, all Canadian doctrine was rewritten to allow for operations with tools like attack helicopters, an armoured cav brigade, and MLRS units (all items the real Canadian army never had a budget for).

Given the long lead time before going nuclear in Tw:2000, it would be very easy to activate some or all of the First Canadian Corps.

I think I still have some notes on the ORBAT and equipment around here somewhere.

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[Antares Administration]

Originally posted by Garf:
This DOES remind me of an interesting fact though.

The Nation of France extends across the Atlantic to a the tiny, St. Peire and Miquelon Islands just off the southern coast of Nfld. Like the rest of the Maritimes it depends on the (now Depleted ) fisheries of the Grand Banks.

There are also several islands in the Gulf and the waters surounded by it and the Maritime provinces that belong to the Province of Quebec and I'm sure I mentioned that Quebec borders on Labrador, and New Brunswick.

There may, for the imaginative Ref, be possibilties there. While I think the French have other fish to fry. It doesn't mean they wouldn't be above lending smaller scale support or that they wouldn't get huffy if St. Peirre and Miquelon got caught in the crossfire of some sort of Maritime war. Thanks Tom. My initial response might have been overly negative. I -still- don't see the heavy handed and overt scenario you describe. But an absolute dissmisal of French involvement seems... Unwise as well.

Garf, it's not overly negative at all. Let's not ignore the fact that Valcartier (a suburb of Quebec City) is the Canadian Army's major garrison and training centre in the province, and that Bagotville (just north of Quebec City) would have a fighter wing already on NORAD duty.

Please see my recent post on the 'Wanted: New Ideas on the end of the world' thread. I think that the Royal Navy would have an easier time with the scenario you suggest than 'la Flotte Francaise.'

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[TKalbfus]

Allow me to rephrase.

What form do you think the Political entities.
The Native American Nations.
The First Nations.
The Six Nations.

I know of the Mohawks, the Algonquin tribes, The Mohegans, The Cherikee, the Sioux, The Apaches, the Pawnee, The Inuits. I'm not sure which tribes are included in the first nations. The way you put it, I don't think you mean literaly the first native American tribes ever to set foot on North American Soil, they would have crossed the landbridge between Asia and Alaska, and hunted mammoths with spears, so you must mean something else. I don't know which nations are of the six either. I know that the Inuits are the preferred name of the Eskimos who live north of the Artic Circle and hunt seals and whales. In general I think they'd start out on their reservations and possible spread out from there. Other people live out in the countryside besides Native Americans, I'm not at all sure that they'd go around killing farmers just to seize their land. Also there are plenty of non-native Americans left who would take objection to lawless Indian tribes that go murdering, looting and plundering and many of those people have guns too. The Native Americans probably realize this too and would at least make an attempt to get along with their neighbors. Most people wouldn't want to die in pointless skirmishes if they can help it. Over 100 million Americans probably died in this war, most people would have lost relatives and friends including many of the Indians and most would probably blame the Russians for their deaths, Indians, white people, blacks, and hispanics alike. If any Russians happened by and asked for directions in a strong slavic accent, he'd probably be lynched. Having an external enemy such as the Russians to blame would probably cut down on the local skirmishes a bit unless they were fights over limited resources. Still unnecessary fighting would be perceived as a victory for the Russians.

Will take when they no longer have to kowtow to (_to their minds_ ) a foreign government of occupation? What shape do you think these new/old nations will take? which territories will they occupy, what will their alliance structure be like?

--------------------
Garf.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Except for the Native American Nations. (which now that I think of it, is an invention of Shadowrun. The Orgnaisition I WAS thinking of was SIAM but Think THEY were more of a Paramillitary/terrorist group)

The groups I named are Native or Aboriginial Intertribal governing bodies that band together to try and get a little more clout in their dealings with the other people of Canada/North America.

1st Nations - Includes but is not limited to the Ojibway and Cree of the region around the Northern great lakes.

Six Nations - are the current inheritors of the Iroquois Confederacy. Six tribes including Mohawk, Onondaga, Oneida, Seneca, and two others.

(I'm part Oneida myself but to my shame know more about that side of my heritage from history books than from any more.. traditional ethnic source.)

I Forgot the Metis Nation, which forms the bulk of the western french that Paul Mentions in his post about the end of the world.

Metis (fr - Halfbreed) is a completely homegrown Ethnic grouping that grew out of the mixing of 'Couriers du Bois' (French Scouts and Frontiersman) and the Local tribes of the Manitoba region. It flourished as it's own thing during the Fur Trading period and was crushed politically during Canada's birth as a nation. The Closest thing Canada had to The American's Civil War was a pair of rebellions led 15 years apart by a Metis by the Name of Louis Riel.

All these... organisations have people and (in some cases) land and asperations to 'Soveriegnty' indpendant nationhood. They are entities to be considered when things fall apart. The breakup (in Canada at least) would not be along arbritary provincial boundary lines.

And likely not even national ones. Many reserves and Native 'Nations' already straddle borders between our two countries.

Their aspirations and pottential military might and resolve should not be dissmissed lightly.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Originally posted by Antares Administration:
Let's not ignore the fact that Valcartier (a suburb of Quebec City) is the Canadian Army's major garrison and training centre in the province, and that Bagotville (just north of Quebec City) would have a fighter wing already on NORAD duty.

Please see my recent post on the 'Wanted: New Ideas on the end of the world' thread. I think that the Royal Navy would have an easier time with the scenario you suggest than 'la Flotte Francaise.'

Paul Nemeth
AA [/QB]

Re: Military Assets. COOL. I knew there were some, but I didn't know what.

As to you post. I think if you look at mine both to Sgt. Biggles in the end of the world thread and my first reaction to Tom's post here, I'm essentially in agreement with you. I just didn't want to close the door completely. I find french (As in France) involvment in Canadian affairs to be a laughably incredible concept. but to be fair a look at maps and stuff might lead one to the opposite conclusion.

I'm trying to be informative but balanced. I -hope- I'm succeeding.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Ontario.

Back in the days before Confederation, British North America was usually distinguised with the names Upper and Lower Canada. Lower Canada was pretty much the St. Lawrence Lowlands and Upper Canada, the Fertile Chunk of land that is south of the Shield.

I've already discussed the concentration of population in this region. I've mentioned the first and for time only Nucleor Power facilities. I think even talked about the rich farmland which supports fruit farms, Tobacco farms, and experimental crop farms that used to be tobacca farms.

In addition to the car plants of other countries there is General Motors Canada. Born of a merger between General Motors and the McLaughlin Group there is still an instutional memory of Their Cars not being allow on US GM lots because for fear of Americans being disatisfied with the usually offered GM products.

I'm not sure how the mergers work out but for the longest time GM had a military Manufacturing branch. GM Defence made the USMC's LAV. Most of the Canadian army's APC's and 'Tank training Vehicles', are varient/prototypes of the LAV. (the mother unit being Switzerland's MOWAG Piranha)

GM Defense was recently bought out by Land Systems(makers of the M1). My Cousin who works for them doesn't even have a new corporate T-Shirt yet. but i THINK they're known as United Defence now. Check out Ship's locker for what THEY are up to.

UM... when it comes to regional Envies. Ontario is more envied than envious. More pridefull than resentful. Though... like every other province, Ontario get's upset with the Federal Gov'ts miserly and/or 'unfair' funding policies.

Mostly I'm talking about southern Ontario. A nebulous concept sometime equated in the minds of non-southern ontario types with 'Planet Toronto' However for arguments sake we'll call the triangle of land bordered on two sides by lake of river shore running from the Quebec border down the northern coasts of lakes Ontario and Erie and up the East shore of Lake Huron until just it starts to curve into a northern shore. The rest of Ontario, much as I hate to admit it living here, is resource rich but too population sparse to be relevant even in provincial politics. Western Separation starts North of Barrie.

 

[sandman]

Originally posted by Garf:
Metis (fr - Halfbreed) is a completely homegrown Ethnic grouping that grew out of the mixing of 'Couriers du Bois' (French Scouts and Frontiersman) and the Local tribes of the Manitoba region.

Hope you don`t mind if I correct you.

It's "Courreur des Bois"

They were mainly there for the action (discovering the country) and the trade (pelts and the like).
They were a great source of revenue for one of our oldest company, "La Compagnie de la Baie D'Hudson" (The Hudson's Bay Company, now nown as "The Bay") which has celebrated it's 350th anniversary some years ago.

They delt regularly with natives and were kind of D&D Rangers (minus the magic, duh

)

 

[sandman]

Originally posted by Antares Administration:
Garf, it's not overly negative at all. Let's not ignore the fact that Valcartier (a suburb of Quebec City) is the Canadian Army's major garrison and training centre in the province, and that Bagotville (just north of Quebec City) would have a fighter wing already on NORAD duty.

And don't forget that Montreal has a small military base (Longue Pointe) and many military presence dispersed on the island, many having their own armory, material etc...