Canada During and After the Twilight War.

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Actually the most interested in this post was Sgt. Biggles and he's expressed a clear interest in military formations.

so I say paul: keep on trukkin.

as to where you actually are in formations. Sounds like you've got most of the Orbat, 86 stuff down. haven't seen much on the Home defence/training Cadre.

Of less interest to the traditional 'Eurpo-Player' perhaps but maybe of use if anyone wants to do a NorthAm book.

 

[Sgt Biggles]

You both have provided a great source of information. I really appreciate. Sorry I haven't responded for a bit. Been up to my neck lately.

I have copied everything you've posted. My conclusions so far:

-At the start of the Twilight War Canadian forces would begin mobilizing and increasing manning.

-With in a year or less Canadian forces would be deployed in force to various hotspots, including Eastern Europe.

-By the time the MWDs fly the Canadian military would have a strong home front presence engaged in training and home defense.

-Around the globe many Canadian military units would be cut off from returning home and would establish containment sites.

-On the main land the influence of the national government would drop dramatically and provincial government would attempt to maintain control, although this could break down as well due to vast geographical boundaries.

-It is likely that cooperation between local Canadian’s and American near the border would attempt to work together, disregarding national boundaries.

-There is a strong faction of political extremists (for lack of a better term) who would actively work to gain support and influence over provincial and national governments.

-Civilian government would be the norm as the country recovers with military governments working in conjunction with them.

-Canada’s recovery would be a little quicker than American due to industries in out of the way locations which survived.

-Canada would maintain relations with the US Civ Gov.

With the orders of battle provided and the details, specific units overseas at the time could be estimated.

How’d I do?

 

[Antares Administration]

Originally posted by Garf:
I'm lost too. I think I got halfway through the regions.
I'll continue on the military regions as best I can, later.

I was aiming for someting of the Cultural flavour of the land. hard to define to an outsider I guess and get a start on how the country might breakdown under varios T2k scenarios.

The Regular Army will, for the most part, have deployed early. Left behind would be the Battle Schools, the Combat Training Centre in Gagetown, NB, and the Depots of the Regular Regiments (R22eR at Valcartier, RCR now really in Petawawa, ON, and PPCLI, in Edmonton, AB). These regiments also have strong support in their traditional home garrisons (Quebec City, London, and Victoria, BC respectively), so you could expect some presence in those locations. The Reserve Units would respond to their respective Area HQ, which, under the lack of an effective command and control structure, would probably revert to provincial control for routine operations until national C3 is reestablished. It's important that the concept of Queen and Country is strongly ingrained in the leadership of the regiments, so the reserve units would, IMHO, require a more desperate situation before failing to respond to Ottawa. Often in 'aid to the civil power' situations, like floods, fires, etc. neighbouring military areas will deploy or send support to a region in need. Even with the vaporization of Ottawa, Toronto and Montreal, the army is likely to maintain a national network, even if decentralized.
The navy's HQs in Halifax and Victoria will likely have taken heavy damage, so in the near term, I see the ship's Captains and Formation Commanders operating independantly. Some of the ships will probably try to return to port to establish a new command structure, but many will just continue to operate under command initiative, barring guidance from Ottawa or Halifax. Remember that the Navy is the service most adept at integrating into US operations. Canadian units operate as part of US Carrier Task Forces all the time.
Not sure about the Air Force, most of its hardware and technicians would be deployed, so Canada would really only have its Air Defence, Maritime Patrol and Strategic Transport squadrons. Those would probably remain under national control (Air Command HQ is in Winnipeg, MB, not in Ottawa).

Paul with your military experience. Where do you think most Militia units. which have a ... Regional Bias obviously in recruitment and staffing would fall in any split between the regions and Ottawa?
See above. For the units still in Canada, there would have been little attrition, so the old guard leadership will still be in place. All of these officers and NCOs will be local reservists (businessmen, tradesman, students), but some will have had Regular Force training and experience, and all will have been trained in their duty to Queen and Country. Only in the most disrupted regions would I see units falling apart or ignoring central authority (if they have one). Of course, we haven't discussed irregulars, and Canada's early history is full of those. More on that later.

For that matter do you think any Reg Force units have the pottential to succumb to regionalism?
Again, as above. In the most disrupted areas, yes. If order is maintained, I would expect a slow return to national control.

If successionist gain control of the regional governments (Quebec or the West), then it is possible that the military units will fracture, and we'd have an new era of rebels and loyalists (a la American Revolution, the Riel Rebellion, and the Conscription Riots of WW1 in Quebec).

Does that help?

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[Antares Administration]

Overall, I'd say pretty good. Here's a few elaborations.

Originally posted by Sgt Biggles:
You both have provided a great source of information. I really appreciate. Sorry I haven't responded for a bit. Been up to my neck lately.

I have copied everything you've posted. My conclusions so far:

-At the start of the Twilight War Canadian forces would begin mobilizing and increasing manning.
Yep, that's the war plan.

-With in a year or less Canadian forces would be deployed in force to various hotspots, including Eastern Europe.
For the sake of discussion, let's say:

1. the Armd Cav Bde Gp to the Central Asian Republics or Near East as part of a US or NATO sanctioned intervention (taken from previous discussions), probably under operational control of a US, UK, or GE Corps.
2. the Mech Inf Bde Gp to Central Europe, also under NATO control.


-By the time the MWDs fly the Canadian military would have a strong home front presence engaged in training and home defense.

-Around the globe many Canadian military units would be cut off from returning home and would establish containment sites.

In Europe, 1 Cdn Inf Div and 4 Cdn Mech Bde Gp (4CMBG), or perhaps even 1 Cdn Corps (-), with two divisions, if the new formations were starting to deploy. In Asia, 1 ACBG would be on its own and probably latched onto a larger ally.

-On the main land the influence of the national government would drop dramatically and provincial government would attempt to maintain control, although this could break down as well due to vast geographical boundaries.
Canada's C3I is VERY widely dispersed. Each RCMP Regional HQ (about 20 across the country), and each major military installation (about 12) has the infrastructure to support its portion of a national C3 system. The only real disruption would come if:

a. Ottawa was TOTALLY obliterated (possible), or
b. All of the sites mentioned above, and more importantly their personnel, were destroyed (some but not all).

In those areas of the country where either civil order has broken down, or where secessionist (sp?) interests have taken power, the national leadership would be disrupted. In the first group, I see the regions around the Ground Zeros (Toronto, Ottawa, Montreal, Halifax), and perhaps the centres of surviving large urban centres. In the second group might be Quebec City and surrounding area, and less likely, the West. For your info, there are large areas of Quebec that are pro-federalist, west Montreal and some of the South Shore, Gatineau (formerly Hull) region across the river from Ottawa, and most of northern Quebec (where a large part of the population is first nations). If Quebec seceeded, there would be hot zones in those areas.

-It is likely that cooperation between local Canadian’s and American near the border would attempt to work together, disregarding national boundaries.
And between adjacent Canadian regions as well.

-There is a strong faction of political extremists (for lack of a better term) who would actively work to gain support and influence over provincial and national governments.

There is a SMALL but VOCAL faction. Like most political movements, the question would be how much 'soft' support do they have?

-Civilian government would be the norm as the country recovers with military governments working in conjunction with them.

I agree.

-Canada’s recovery would be a little quicker than American due to industries in out of the way locations which survived.

But we're not talking chemical plants or steel mills. Most of Canada's out of the way industrial capability is in the raw material area:
oil refining, copper, iron ore, nickel and other metals, aluminum smelting (but we have no bauxite), timber and paper. All of our heavy manufacturing industry (auto, steel, chemicals, finished goods) is concentrated in the developed southern part of the country, usually within 100 km of the largest cities (Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Halifax) or of large US cities (Windsor-Detroit).

-Canada would maintain relations with the US Civ Gov.
I agree.

With the orders of battle provided and the details, specific units overseas at the time could be estimated.

Absolutely.

How’d I do?

Not bad.

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[kafka47]

Information is also key to Canada's speeder recovery because of the decentralized nature of Canada's High Tech industries existing in small rural (read: greenfield) sites in Ontario {Waterloo corridor} and the Alberta clustered around Calgary, I think combined with a centralized/decentralized university system. In which, universities contain vast treasure troves of information as do many of the central libraries across the country. As a result of also being off the main targeting scopes, it is possible that many of the files of MofD or Foreign Affairs got preserved. Plus, Canada actively compiles databases of trade contacts in other countries through its embassies worldwide. It is possible that Canada in the Twilight years would be trying assemble a coalition of countries committed to multilateralism.

Also, not mentioned in these posts are Canada's strengths in telecommunications, particularly in the area of long distance digital switches. Any attempt a unified communication grid would likely use microwave technology, of which Canada is a pioneer.

It is likely also that a strong nativist tendency would arise before being neutralized by various forces of the Central government. As despite Canada's committment to multiculturalism in policies, Canadians can remain quite firm bigots when push comes to shove. No offence to fellow Canadians but I have witnessed too many ethnic and racial slurs during micro-crises in our country.

Despite a much smaller armed force, Canada is also a leading arms manufacturer and these plants would experience a boon when the war starts creating a cleavage between the peaceniks (who usually are always are in the minority) and rest of the population.

With Ottawa bombed, it could also signal a move to real decentralized federalism with the Federal government taking turns to sit in different Provincial capitals and a provincial government acting as floating elected Senate.

Political reform would also try to applease Canadian self-interest in politics. It is likely the war would see a resurgence of Canadians toward left-wing parties, as Canadians tend to embrace collective solutions to solve problems, this is not to say one would witness a resurection of the Canadian CP but perhaps the Greens or New Socialist tendencies.

For greater inspiration of what Canada would be like during the Twilight years, I would suggest the interested parties read: Richard Rohmer's two books dealing with the attempted invasion of Canada by the United States. [titles elude me right now but they were written in the early seventies]

<search mode on>

I think they were called: Rohmer, Richard. Ultimatum. -- Toronto : Clark, Irwin, [c1973] & Rohmer, Richard. BALLS!. -- General, c1979

 

[Antares Administration]

Originally posted by kafka47:

For greater inspiration of what Canada would be like during the Twilight years, I would suggest the interested parties read: Richard Rohmer's two books dealing with the attempted invasion of Canada by the United States. [titles elude me right now but they were written in the early seventies]

<search mode on>

I think they were called: Rohmer, Richard. Ultimatum. -- Toronto : Clark, Irwin, [c1973] & Rohmer, Richard. BALLS!. -- General, c1979

The specific books were Ultimatum (1973) and Exxoneration (1974). The Battle of Toronto International Airport is a classic. He also wrote a two books called Exodus UK (1975) and Separation (1976) which dealt with a mass emigration from UK to Canada, and the resulting decision by Quebecois Canadians to separate from Canada.

For a guy who started his career as a fighter recon pilot, flying a Photo-Mustang over the beaches in the D-Day campaign, he's had quite a career. For those interested, here's a synopsis of his military career. His civilian career is at least as interesting.


Major-General Richard Rohmer began his military career in1936, serving in the ROTC (Reserve Officers Training Corps) at Eagle Rock High School in Pasedena, California. He served with the RCAF as a fighter-reconnaissance pilot during 1942 ¡V 1945. He took part in the D-Day Operation; served in France, Belgium and Holland, completing a 135 mission tour of operations in November of 1944. He was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross. At 5:05 p.m. on July 17, 1944, while leading a section of four Mustang fighter aircraft on a low level reconnaissance, General Rohmer caught Field Marshal Rommel in his staff-car southeast of Caen and called in Spitfires that shot up Rommel's vehicle, seriously injuring the Field Marshal, taking him out of the Battle of Normandy. He served in the Royal Canadian Naval Reserve in 1944 ¡V 1948. In 1950 he returned to the RCAF flying Vampire jets and commanded the 400 Squadron (City of Toronto) and 411 Squadron (County of York) in 1952 ¡V 1953. He retired in 1953 as a Wing Commander. In 1971 he again associated with the Canadian Armed Forces as Honorary Lieutenant Colonel and later Honorary Colonel of 411 Air Reserve Squadron.

400 Squadron and 411 Squadron were both raised before WW2 as from mobilized Air Reserve units. Today, 400 Squadron is a tactical helicopter squadron, stationed just outside of Toronto.
*****


In April 1975, he was promoted to Brigadier-General and appointed Senior Air Reserve Advisor to the Chief of the Defence staff and the Commander of Air Command. On April 1, 1976, he was appointed Commander of the newly formed Air Reserve Group in Air Command. On January 31, 1978, he was promoted to the rank of Major-General and appointed Chief of Reserves of the Canadian Armed Forces. He was made a Commander of the Order of Military Merit in December 1978. He left the Armed Forces in February 1981.

*****


Richard Rohmer is Canada's most decorated citizen. In August 1990 he was appointed an Officer of the Order of Canada. He is one of two persons who is both a Commander of the Order of Military Merit and an Officer of the Order of Canada. He holds the Jubilee Medal, the Centennial Medal, the Confederation (125 year) Medal, and the Canada Defence Medal (CD). In July 1989, he was appointed by H.M. King Beaudoin of Belgium to the Order of Leopold with the rank of Officer (OfL). In June 1997 he was appointed to the Order of Ontario (O.Ont) and is now a member of the Advisory Council of the Order of Ontario.


Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[Antares Administration]

Originally posted by kafka47:
...Also, not mentioned in these posts are Canada's strengths in telecommunications, particularly in the area of long distance digital switches. Any attempt a unified communication grid would likely use microwave technology, of which Canada is a pioneer.

Canada also hosts two public gateways, part of original backbone of the modern internet (UBC in Vancouver, and McGill University in Montreal).


Despite a much smaller armed force, Canada is also a leading arms manufacturer and these plants would experience a boon when the war starts creating a cleavage between the peaceniks (who usually are always are in the minority) and rest of the population.

With Ottawa bombed, it could also signal a move to real decentralized federalism with the Federal government taking turns to sit in different Provincial capitals and a provincial government acting as floating elected Senate.


Decentralisation is a possibility, but our history shows that it would be hard to get the regions to agree on how it would be done. Someone has to lose for someone else to gain. That's why the central government in Canada has always had more powers than that of our neighbour to the south.


Political reform would also try to applease Canadian self-interest in politics. It is likely the war would see a resurgence of Canadians toward left-wing parties, as Canadians tend to embrace collective solutions to solve problems, this is not to say one would witness a resurection of the Canadian CP but perhaps the Greens or New Socialist tendencies.


Here I disagree. In this country, unlimited war has always resulted in conservative minded central government, either Conservative or coalition. In most cases, even (big L) Liberal governments recruited what influence they could in the Canadian military-industrial complex (as in MacKenzie King's WW2 cabinet). The rise of truly left wing parties is reactionary, and not likely to be widely supported. Canada has had multiple cases where the citizens have rioted in the face of draconian measures by the central government (the conscription crisis of 1918, or the Winnipeg General Strike as examples), and although left-wing interests played their roles in such unrest, the centrist or right-wing powers of the day remained in power. Successful leftist parties in Canada have only ever come to power in peacetime (when there is no external enemy).

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Racial Slurs and Bigotry.
Nice as we try to be there is a dark undercurrent in the Canadian psyche. I think the worse example for me. The one that made me most ashamed to be a Canadian was during the 88 summer olympics.

When <jeez I can't remember his name>, a Jamacan Immigrant Won the men's 100. it was "WE'RE Number one!" -- as they sat on their fat asses on a couch in front of the tv.

When he tested postive for steriods the jokes all began. "What makes Jamacan's run fast? "

I think I breifly alluded to Canada being an Inovator in communications tech. and suggested that It was exactly due to our being spread out.

I think Paul has the nail on the head.
Remember the key Attributes I mention at the begining.

Small C conservative.
Sense of Community.

it means in a pinch. An appeal by a representive of the Crown to assist fellow Canadians will carry one HECK of a lot of weight.

 

[Antares Administration]

Originally posted by Sgt Biggles:
With the orders of battle provided and the details, specific units overseas at the time could be estimated.

Aside from what I've suggested above, we could always juggle the deployments somewhat to fit the storyline.

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[kafka47]

Paul:

Originally posted by Antares Administration:

Decentralisation is a possibility, but our history shows that it would be hard to get the regions to agree on how it would be done. Someone has to lose for someone else to gain. That's why the central government in Canada has always had more powers than that of our neighbour to the south.

I am not sure if that the war would really slow down the pace of decentralization already afoot in Canada. If you look carefully at the Canadian constitution, like I have you find it embodies a compromise rather than a consensus. That is why we are always warring about a Trudeau vision versus a decentralized vision. These compromises were built in when the JCPC of Britain was overruling the Federal government and when it came to repatriation, the provinces had already built up sufficient capacity to challenge Ottawa. True, the difficulty was unity and that is what I would forecast in the advent of a Twilight war (as opposed to my variant - years of Twilight more Merc 2000 and keeping with what we are seeing around us today).

Decentralization is also occuring due to the transfer of competitiveness to the regions and abandoning of universality. A crisis ridden central government would not have to means to collect taxes, let alone, hand out welfare without some measure of decentralization. What compromise could be wrought to make a central government work in the Twilight years? We have to assume that Canadian innovation in transportation and communication remain that is why I postulated that Ottawa would no longer be a capital but the residence of the central government with massive decentralization. Where the federal government would still have a role is in intelligence and coordination of actions by asserting sovernignity over borders. (BTW, this does not reflect a particular preference politically, just an observation of how postmodern Canada could react to a nuclear strike) Keeping the regions happy would be a secondary job, as if you saw 2300AD, it is the Wheat Pool that becomes a major force in keeping the country together. With power shifting Westward, we might see Edmonton becoming the new Capital, as the Albertians fend off both the Soviets and Americans wanting "our" resources. What terms do you think the West would then dictate to ROC?

Here I disagree. In this country, unlimited war has always resulted in conservative minded central government, either Conservative or coalition. In most cases, even (big L) Liberal governments recruited what influence they could in the Canadian military-industrial complex (as in MacKenzie King's WW2 cabinet). The rise of truly left wing parties is reactionary, and not likely to be widely supported. Canada has had multiple cases where the citizens have rioted in the face of draconian measures by the central government (the conscription crisis of 1918, or the Winnipeg General Strike as examples), and although left-wing interests played their roles in such unrest, the centrist or right-wing powers of the day remained in power. Successful leftist parties in Canada have only ever come to power in peacetime (when there is no external enemy).
[qb]

Paul Nemeth
AA [/QUOTE]

What we have also seen is that left wing forces being very unorganized in Canada, as it is such a young country but there remains a strong libertarian sediment that would run counter to natural propensity for conservatism and turn toward more radical alternatives driven by our need for organic communities (that is self-governed communities whereby a sense of commonwealth could be preserved). Looking at recent history, crisies have driven the Left in Canada to restructure itself. There is no reason to believe that this trend would not continue. Canadians are in the midst of a national moment of change which is unpredictable, partially due to a new generation arising and a old generation retiring (this is simply the demographics of the situation). Many of the boomers and young people dead in the Twilight years, what were the formative influences on the 20-30 something generation? A sort of DIY nihlism but also a strong tendency toward creating alternatives based upon democratic govenance. A globalism that would respect the local but connect with the global. This would lay the basis for renewed left. Furthermore, the scattering of Soviet forces in the Twilight years would act in fact as a force to repress revolutionary or left wing sediment. If you look carefully at the actions of the Red Army during WW2 or Afganistan, it was to prop up a conservative form (read: totalitarian) of government. Yes, it did bring various civil liberities and modernizations, for instance bring women more to forefront of political/social cultural life but, it is unlikely that the USSR would be able to continue to inspire that movement in the Twilight years, when their army was dominated and run by men (who were very conservative in values). If anything we might see the American army acting as stimulus for change in Canada... Now, it is hard to know whether Milgov or Civgov would be pro-revolution or anti-revolution (not possessing the Twilight books but actively following Challenge and owning 2300AD, I cannot tell).

 

[kafka47]

My ultimate interest would be how would Canada respond in a multilateral way (Canada's traditional foreign policy stance) in a world that has an absence of multilateral institutions?

Given the above discussions, it would see that it would follow its traditional role of getting close to the Empire of the Day. But, with France so far away, how does Canada respond? Are there envoys in the Twilight milieu or does that come later from France scouting out?

 

[BMonnery]

Not t2k (its 2k3), but I thought you'd like it:

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/can/clf2k3intro.htm

Bryn

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Originally posted by BMonnery:
Not t2k (its 2k3), but I thought you'd like it:

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/can/clf2k3intro.htm

Bryn

I do!

Hmmm slightly off topic but the comment about 'highly educated' struck a couple of chords. I have a couple of annecdotes from my Militia days that might be worth sharing on this thread.

First Time out of an M113:

We had practiced, mostly in between lines drawn in the sand, but once (unofficially) out of the back of an olive drab pickup truck. It's possible we might have been popping out of the doubled 'submarine hatches' of a grizzely once or twice but I'm pretty sure that Canadian excercise was AFTER our visit to Illanois.

So, as I recall, the first time I jumped out of an M111 was out of one owned my an american National Guard formation that they loaned to us for purposes of playing together.

They're response when we got out faster further and properly prone leaping out as the hatch was still dropping was.. "....whoa... now that's training" ... I don't think they knew it was our first time.

Reg Force vs. Militia, Take one:

I remember having a talk (I'm a curious sort) with a garroulous reg force sargeant in the junior ranks mess.

He was complaining that reservists just DON'T have enough training. His prime example (the one that sticks in my mind still after 12 years) was comparing the number of army issue training courses he had on his resume versus that of a competing Militia Sargeant. The militia NCO's longest and toughest course, the pride of his resume, was identical to the shortest of the qualication courses that the reg force NCO had bothered to list.

"A good student Job" or Reg Force vs. Militia Take two:

Two evenings a week, anywhere from every other to every weekend a month, and pretty good pay; Militia service makes a fine student job. By the time someone who starts in their last year of high school (and many start later) reaches master corporal they're at least halfway through their Bachelor's Degree.

I overheard a sargeant bragging once: he was telling a story about a reg force nugget Lt. still full of pride over his Royal Roads Degree, Iron ring and incipient P. Eng. Comming over to casually chat with the 'help' a handfull of Sgts and Warrants and other middle/senior NCO's.

Turned out, none of the assembled non-officers had anything less than a masters degree or a couple of bachelor's in unrelated feilds. To hear the NCO telling the tale, they sent the newbie officer along afterwhile feeling woefully inadequate.

'True' Tales I honestly did or at least honestly heard.

 

[Jame]

BMonnery posted an interesting link in "The Fleet" section topic "U.S. WW2/Imperial Marines." It's for 2300AD, but it may be useful as an extrapolation of T2K forces.

 

[BMonnery]

Originally posted by Jame:
BMonnery posted an interesting link in "The Fleet" section topic "U.S. WW2/Imperial Marines." It's for 2300AD, but it may be useful as an extrapolation of T2K forces.

I always wondered how Quebec got reincorporated into Canada, given that the French were backing the Quebecois? Payment for British support on the Arabian penninsula?

Bryn

 

[Antares Administration]

Originally posted by BMonnery:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jame:
BMonnery posted an interesting link in "The Fleet" section topic "U.S. WW2/Imperial Marines." It's for 2300AD, but it may be useful as an extrapolation of T2K forces.

I always wondered how Quebec got reincorporated into Canada, given that the French were backing the Quebecois? Payment for British support on the Arabian penninsula?

Bryn </font>[/QUOTE]*purely conjecture* The St. Lawrence valley is simply too important to central and Atlantic Canada's lines of communications. I'd suggest that either:

a. Quebec opts to return to the confederation,
b. Canada negotiates a new duality (different cultures, single state), or
c. Canada regains the region through economic and/or military conquest (other parties might also be involved).

Thoughts?

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[BMonnery]

Originally posted by Antares Administration:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BMonnery:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Jame:
BMonnery posted an interesting link in "The Fleet" section topic "U.S. WW2/Imperial Marines." It's for 2300AD, but it may be useful as an extrapolation of T2K forces.

I always wondered how Quebec got reincorporated into Canada, given that the French were backing the Quebecois? Payment for British support on the Arabian penninsula?

Bryn </font>[/QUOTE]*purely conjecture* The St. Lawrence valley is simply too important to central and Atlantic Canada's lines of communications. I'd suggest that either:

a. Quebec opts to return to the confederation,
b. Canada negotiates a new duality (different cultures, single state), or
c. Canada regains the region through economic and/or military conquest (other parties might also be involved).

Thoughts?

Paul Nemeth
AA </font>[/QUOTE]If I remember the Canada 2000 article from Challenge correctly, the two splinter governments claiming to be "Canada" have reconquered part of Quebec, but then ran into regular French military forces.

Hurrah, I summarised it on the etranger list last year!

Another T2K Orbat, this one for Canada. It excludes forces still in Europe as of 2001-ish.

Quebec declares itself independent on 18/1/98 with
Sherbrooke as it's capital (Montreal and Quebec City took 3 Mt between them), and is recognised by France 2 days later. 2 weeks later Canadian forces invade Quebec. Later both US governments denouce Quebec

On 3/8/98, Alberta declares itself independent to
protect it's oil reseources, cutting Canada in half, and severing the Canadian forces fighting the Soviet invader in the west from the main logistics base. They align themselves with US MilGov, and the US 104th ID(L) crosses the border to protect Alberta from Canada. The Waterloo Brigade (an Anglo-German unit in Canada) aligns with Alberta.

On 29/10/98, the native peoples declare themselves
independent and set up their own state in Sask. and Man. (Much like the Sioux in America).

In 1999-2000, the Canadians take Southern Quebec and come into contact with regular French troops, while the majority of the splinter states reformed a new Federal Canada.

Bryn

CANADIAN FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
Northern Command (Yukon Territory)
1/Canadian Scottish Regiment: 350 men (now broken up into numerous small bands and no longer accepting orders).
2/Canadian Scottish Regiment: 250 men (now broken up into numerous small bands and no longer accepting orders).

Pacific Command (British Columbia)
3/Canadian Scottish Regiment: 350 men (now broken up into numerous small bands and no longer accepting orders).
1/Regina Rifle Regiment: 400 men (now broken up into numerous small bands and no longer accepting
orders).
1/Rocky Mountain Rangers: 300 men (Kamloops).

Prairie Command (Saskatchewan and Manitoba)
1/Royal Westminster Regiment: 200 men (Saskatoon, Sask)
1/Royal Canadian Regiment (M): 350 men (Regina, Sask).
2/Rocky Mountain Rangers: 250 cavalry (Yorkton, Sask).
2/Regina Rifle Regiment: 400 men (Brandon, Man).
2/Royal Westminster Regiment: 350 men (Portage la Prairie, Man).
2/British Columbia Regiment (A): 350 men, 7 AFVs (CFB Shilo, Man).

Eastern Command (Ontario)
3/Regina Rifle Regiment: 300 men (London, ON).
1/Toronto Regiment: 350 men (Peterborough ON).
3/Royal Canadian Regiment: 300 men (Thunder Bay, ON).
2/Toronto Regiment: 400 men (Thunder Bay, ON).
3/Toronto Regiment: 300 cavalry (Kingston, ON).

Maritime Command (New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, Newfoundland, southern Quebec)
2/Queen's Own Rifles of Canada: 350 men Fredericton, NB).
1/Princess of Wales' Own Regiment (M): 300 men (Bathurst, NB).
1/Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry (M, E): 300 men (Moncton, NB).
2/Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry (M, E): 350 men (Edmunston, NB).
1/Royal New Brunswick Regiment: 400 men (Sydney, NS).
1/Royal 22e Regiment (M, E, F): 250 men (New Glasgow, NS).
1/Queen's Own Rifles of Canada: 300 men (Charlottetown, PEI).
1/Newfoundland Regiment of Foot: 350 men (Gander, NFLD).
1/Royal Newfoundland Regiment: 350 men (Cornerbrook, NFLD).
2/Royal 22e Regiment (M, E, F): 350 men (Saint John's, NFLD).
1/Lake Superior Scottish Regiment: 400 men (Sherbrooke, Quebec).
2/Royal Canadian Regiment: 300 cavalry (Sherbrooke, Quebec).
1/British Columbia Regiment (A, E): 250 men, 3 AFVs (Gaspe, Quebec).
1/Canadian Airborne Regiment (E, P): 300 men (Gaspe, Quebec).
3/Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry (M, E): 400 men (Rimouski, Quebec).

ALBERTA FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
Alberta Defense Force (Alberta and Saskatchewan)
1/King's Own Calgary Regiment: 250 cavalry (Banff, Alta).
1/Loyal Edmonton Regiment: 400 cavalry (Grande Prairie, Alta).
1/Lord Strathcona's Horse (A): 350 men, 9 AFVs (Bowden, Alta).
2/Lord Strathcona's Horse (A): 250 men, 4 AFVs (CFB Cold Lake, Alta).
2/Ontario Regiment: 350 cavalry (Bowden, Alta).
1/Windsor Regiment: 350 men (Wainwright, Alta).
2/Windsor Regiment: 300 men (Bowden, Alta).
1/Calgary Highlander: 350 men (Rosetown, Sask).
1/Royal Winnipeg Rifles: 300 cavalry (Canora, Sask).
1/Toronto Scottish Regiment: 300 cavalry (Swift Current, Sask).

Anglo-German Brigade (Ontario)
1/The Royal Hampshire Regiment: 250 cavalry (Kitchener).
1/The Cheshire Regiment: 350 men (Sault Ste. Marie).
53rd Panzer Battalion: 250 men, 9 AFVs (Sudbury).
81st Panzer Grenadier Battalion (M): 300 men, 6 AFVs (Waterloo).

TRIBAL ALLIANCE
Homeland Defense Force (northern Saskatchewan)
Eastern Defense Group: 150 cavalry (Creighton).
Southwestern Defense Group: 200 cavalry (North Battleford).
Central Defense Group: 250 cavalry, 1 AFV (Prince Albert).
Northwestern Defense Group: 150 cavalry (Meadow Lake).

LOYAL SOVIET TROOPS
62nd Motorized Rifle Division: 2500 men, (coastal British Columbia around Queen Charlotte Sound).

SOVIET MARAUDERS
76th Tank Division: 3000 men, 6 AFVs (Queen Charlotte Island, BC).
114th Motorized Rifle Division: 1000 men, 8 AFV (Whitehorse, YT).
120th Motorized Rifle Division: 2000 men, 6 tanks (Queen Charlotte Island, BC).

QUEBEC FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
Quebec National Army (Quebec and Labrador)
1/Regiment de Hull: 350 men (Hull, Quebec).
1/Regiment du Saguenay: 450 men (Troise-Rivieres, Quebec).
1/Regiment de la Chaudiere: 350 men (Matagami, Quebec).
3/22e Regiment (M): 300 men, 6 AFVs (Quebec, Quebec).
1/Fusiliers du St Laurent: 350 men (Noranda, Quebec)
1/Voltigeurs de Quebec: 350 men (Havre-St. Pierre, Quebec).
1/Front de Liberation du Quebec: 400 men (Quebec, Quebec).
2/Front de Liberation du Quebec: 350 men (Val d'Or, Quebec).
1/Regiment de Maisonneuve: 250 men (Goose Bay, Labrador).
1/Fusiliers Mont-Royal: 300 men (Churchill Falls, Labrador).

(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/etranger/message/4929)

Bryn

 

[Antares Administration]

Originally posted by BMonnery:

....

LOYAL SOVIET TROOPS
62nd Motorized Rifle Division: 2500 men, (coastal British Columbia around Queen Charlotte Sound).

SOVIET MARAUDERS
76th Tank Division: 3000 men, 6 AFVs (Queen Charlotte Island, BC).
114th Motorized Rifle Division: 1000 men, 8 AFV (Whitehorse, YT).
120th Motorized Rifle Division: 2000 men, 6 tanks (Queen Charlotte Island, BC).

Bryn

OK, I trained and exercised with Cdn Forces in British Columbia, and the concept of a tank division and an MRD on the Queen Charlottes (even if they are only 5000 men and 12 AFVs) just makes me

. Naval Infantry or Airborne troops, sure, but even a jeep has problems in those mountains, never mind a division with a ponderous logistic tail. Where were they going, Vancouver/Seattle? From Prince Rupert, you have to go in to Prince George, south via either the Fraser Valley or across the plateau and the coastal mountains via Whistler. That's only a couple thousand kilometers extra.

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[Antares Administration]

Originally posted by BMonnery:
Another T2K Orbat, this one for Canada. It excludes forces still in Europe as of 2001-ish.

Quebec declares itself independent on 18/1/98 with
Sherbrooke as it's capital (Montreal and Quebec City took 3 Mt between them), and is recognised by France 2 days later. 2 weeks later Canadian forces invade Quebec. Later both US governments denouce Quebec

On 3/8/98, Alberta declares itself independent to
protect it's oil reseources, cutting Canada in half, and severing the Canadian forces fighting the Soviet invader in the west from the main logistics base. They align themselves with US MilGov, and the US 104th ID(L) crosses the border to protect Alberta from Canada. The Waterloo Brigade (an Anglo-German unit in Canada) aligns with Alberta.

On 29/10/98, the native peoples declare themselves
independent and set up their own state in Sask. and Man. (Much like the Sioux in America).

In 1999-2000, the Canadians take Southern Quebec and come into contact with regular French troops, while the majority of the splinter states reformed a new Federal Canada.

Bryn

There are a fair number of discrepancies in the ORBAT that follows, most of which would only be explained by some significant bureaucratic screwing around. I'll highlight a few things below:

CANADIAN FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
Northern Command (Yukon Territory)
1/Canadian Scottish Regiment: 350 men (now broken up into numerous small bands and no longer accepting orders).
2/Canadian Scottish Regiment: 250 men (now broken up into numerous small bands and no longer accepting orders).

Pacific Command (British Columbia)
3/Canadian Scottish Regiment: 350 men (now broken up into numerous small bands and no longer accepting orders).
1/Regina Rifle Regiment: 400 men (now broken up into numerous small bands and no longer accepting
orders).
1/Rocky Mountain Rangers: 300 men (Kamloops).

No serious problems so far. Most of the units named are formed from the cadres of 39 Bde (located in BC). The exception is the "Royal Regina Rifles", which is part of 38 Bde.

Prairie Command (Saskatchewan and Manitoba)
1/Royal Westminster Regiment: 200 men (Saskatoon, Sask)
1/Royal Canadian Regiment (M): 350 men (Regina, Sask).
2/Rocky Mountain Rangers: 250 cavalry (Yorkton, Sask).
2/Regina Rifle Regiment: 400 men (Brandon, Man).
2/Royal Westminster Regiment: 350 men (Portage la Prairie, Man).
2/British Columbia Regiment (A): 350 men, 7 AFVs (CFB Shilo, Man).

A few points. 1RCR is a permanent force unit garrisoned in Petawawa, ON. It would have been one of the first to deploy overseas. 4RCR is the RCR militia battalion that would more likely have stayed behind, but it's garrison is in southern ON (London/Stratford).
The Westminsters, RMR and BCR are all 39 Bde units, with the Westies and the BCR from the Vancouver area and the RMRs are from Kamloops in the interior of BC. It's highly unlikely with Soviets in the Coastal Mountains that these units would be anywhere that far east.

Eastern Command (Ontario)
3/Regina Rifle Regiment: 300 men (London, ON).
1/Toronto Regiment: 350 men (Peterborough ON).
3/Royal Canadian Regiment: 300 men (Thunder Bay, ON).
2/Toronto Regiment: 400 men (Thunder Bay, ON).
3/Toronto Regiment: 300 cavalry (Kingston, ON).

OK, the Toronto Regiment is a unit of Artillery, part of the Royal Canadian Artillery (Corps). There are six infantry regiments in Toronto, but none are named here. I won't even begin to ask about the Royal Regina Rifles in London....

Maritime Command (New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island, Newfoundland, southern Quebec)
2/Queen's Own Rifles of Canada: 350 men Fredericton, NB).
1/Princess of Wales' Own Regiment (M): 300 men (Bathurst, NB).
1/Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry (M, E): 300 men (Moncton, NB).
2/Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry (M, E): 350 men (Edmunston, NB).
1/Royal New Brunswick Regiment: 400 men (Sydney, NS).
1/Royal 22e Regiment (M, E, F): 250 men (New Glasgow, NS).
1/Queen's Own Rifles of Canada: 300 men (Charlottetown, PEI).
1/Newfoundland Regiment of Foot: 350 men (Gander, NFLD).
1/Royal Newfoundland Regiment: 350 men (Cornerbrook, NFLD).
2/Royal 22e Regiment (M, E, F): 350 men (Saint John's, NFLD).
1/Lake Superior Scottish Regiment: 400 men (Sherbrooke, Quebec).
2/Royal Canadian Regiment: 300 cavalry (Sherbrooke, Quebec).
1/British Columbia Regiment (A, E): 250 men, 3 AFVs (Gaspe, Quebec).
1/Canadian Airborne Regiment (E, P): 300 men (Gaspe, Quebec).
3/Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry (M, E): 400 men (Rimouski, Quebec).

OK, the only way that this would happen is if the Regular Force Units of the Canadian Mechanised Brigade Group, mentioned in Tw:2000 canon as being in Central Europe, are simultaneously in existance in Eastern Canada (the infantry units being 1/PPCLI and 1/R22eR, as well as 1/RCR which was not named above).
I'll assume that the reason for the rest of the hodge-podge (including Western Canadian units) being in Eastern Canada was the invasion of Quebec.
Also, the Canadian Airborne Regiment no longer exists, not even as a reserve/militia unit. It has been utterly disbanded (as a result of public furor over the unit's performance in Somalia). It's more likely that the unit would be reformed as 1 Canadian Parachute Battalion, or 1 Para, the unit's name in WW2.

ALBERTA FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
Alberta Defense Force (Alberta and Saskatchewan)
1/King's Own Calgary Regiment: 250 cavalry (Banff, Alta).
1/Loyal Edmonton Regiment: 400 cavalry (Grande Prairie, Alta).
1/Lord Strathcona's Horse (A): 350 men, 9 AFVs (Bowden, Alta).
2/Lord Strathcona's Horse (A): 250 men, 4 AFVs (CFB Cold Lake, Alta).
2/Ontario Regiment: 350 cavalry (Bowden, Alta).
1/Windsor Regiment: 350 men (Wainwright, Alta).
2/Windsor Regiment: 300 men (Bowden, Alta).
1/Calgary Highlander: 350 men (Rosetown, Sask).
1/Royal Winnipeg Rifles: 300 cavalry (Canora, Sask).
1/Toronto Scottish Regiment: 300 cavalry (Swift Current, Sask).

And what are four battalions of troops from Central Canada doing defending the successionist Albertan government? The Tor Scots, Windsors and the Ontarios would be back past Lake Superior faster than a prairie thunderstorm!

Anglo-German Brigade (Ontario)
1/The Royal Hampshire Regiment: 250 cavalry (Kitchener).
1/The Cheshire Regiment: 350 men (Sault Ste. Marie).
53rd Panzer Battalion: 250 men, 9 AFVs (Sudbury).
81st Panzer Grenadier Battalion (M): 300 men, 6 AFVs (Waterloo).

I know that these are supposed to represent the units from the Bilateral training battalions in Suffield (UK) and Shilo (GE). I have to assume that the reason that these units are in southern ON is either:

a. they're trying to drive home, or
b. the Germans told the Brits about Oktoberfest in Waterloo, and they decided to check it out.

Either way, it doesn't make much sense.

TRIBAL ALLIANCE
Homeland Defense Force (northern Saskatchewan)
Eastern Defense Group: 150 cavalry (Creighton).
Southwestern Defense Group: 200 cavalry (North Battleford).
Central Defense Group: 250 cavalry, 1 AFV (Prince Albert).
Northwestern Defense Group: 150 cavalry (Meadow Lake).

LOYAL SOVIET TROOPS
62nd Motorized Rifle Division: 2500 men, (coastal British Columbia around Queen Charlotte Sound).

SOVIET MARAUDERS
76th Tank Division: 3000 men, 6 AFVs (Queen Charlotte Island, BC).
114th Motorized Rifle Division: 1000 men, 8 AFV (Whitehorse, YT).
120th Motorized Rifle Division: 2000 men, 6 tanks (Queen Charlotte Island, BC).

QUEBEC FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
Quebec National Army (Quebec and Labrador)
1/Regiment de Hull: 350 men (Hull, Quebec).
1/Regiment du Saguenay: 450 men (Troise-Rivieres, Quebec).
1/Regiment de la Chaudiere: 350 men (Matagami, Quebec).
3/22e Regiment (M): 300 men, 6 AFVs (Quebec, Quebec).
1/Fusiliers du St Laurent: 350 men (Noranda, Quebec)
1/Voltigeurs de Quebec: 350 men (Havre-St. Pierre, Quebec).
1/Front de Liberation du Quebec: 400 men (Quebec, Quebec).
2/Front de Liberation du Quebec: 350 men (Val d'Or, Quebec).
1/Regiment de Maisonneuve: 250 men (Goose Bay, Labrador).
1/Fusiliers Mont-Royal: 300 men (Churchill Falls, Labrador).

(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/etranger/message/4929)

Bryn

What was the origin of this ORBAT, and is it canon or just a player aid?

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[BMonnery]

Originally posted by Antares Administration:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by BMonnery:

....

LOYAL SOVIET TROOPS
62nd Motorized Rifle Division: 2500 men, (coastal British Columbia around Queen Charlotte Sound).

SOVIET MARAUDERS
76th Tank Division: 3000 men, 6 AFVs (Queen Charlotte Island, BC).
114th Motorized Rifle Division: 1000 men, 8 AFV (Whitehorse, YT).
120th Motorized Rifle Division: 2000 men, 6 tanks (Queen Charlotte Island, BC).

Bryn

OK, I trained and exercised with Cdn Forces in British Columbia, and the concept of a tank division and an MRD on the Queen Charlottes (even if they are only 5000 men and 12 AFVs) just makes me

. Naval Infantry or Airborne troops, sure, but even a jeep has problems in those mountains, never mind a division with a ponderous logistic tail. Where were they going, Vancouver/Seattle? From Prince Rupert, you have to go in to Prince George, south via either the Fraser Valley or across the plateau and the coastal mountains via Whistler. That's only a couple thousand kilometers extra.

Paul Nemeth
AA </font>[/QUOTE]Might have been what stopped them. They were really only meant to cut off Alaska (and it's oil) from the US IMHO.

Canon has some strange bits in it....

Bryn