Canada During and After the Twilight War.

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Oh I haven't even STARTEd on resrve formations yet.

I'm most familier with the Lake Superior Scottish Regiment of course but...

I've met Militia types from all over. And I'm sure Quebec has MTC's as well as CFB's

My former Unit belongs to 'Prairie Region' though so most of the Militiamen I've met were either Prairie or Pacific.

 

[Antares Administration]

Garf, this may be out of sequence with the way that you wanted to handle this but the topic of 'assets' did come up, so for the sake of informed discussion, here it is:

Note 1: This list is based upon hypothetical deployments resulting from the continued escalation of hostilities that will result in WW3. In this scenario, the Wall never fell.
Note 2: This list is based upon a mix of actual and historical deployments, but does not include all of the units of the projected Canadian Corps. I could redo this if those units were desired.

Military Bases and Facilities in Canada - 2003, by Region, with Canadian (and U.S. Equivalent) Descriptive Names

Atlantic Canada

- Navy -
1. Canadian Forces Base (CFB) Halifax - Halifax, Nova Scotia. MARLANT (CINCNAVLANT), HMC Dockyard Halifax [including Fleet Maintenance Facility CAPE SCOTT, Naval Operations School, and Naval Engineering School], Canadian Atlantic Fleet Units [including Victoria Class SSK (former UK Upholder Class), Halifax Class FFH, Iroquois Class DDG, Kingston Class MM, and auxiliaries].
2. Canadian Forces Station (CFS) St. John's - St. John's, Newfoundland. Regional support base.
3. Naval Reserve Divisions (training detachments):
a. HMCS Cabot - St. John's, Newfoundland.
b. HMCS Queen Charlotte - Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island.
c. HMCS Scotian - Halifax, Nova Scotia.
d. HMCS Brunswicker - Saint John, New Brunswick.

- Army -
1. Land Force Atlantic Area HQ - Halifax, Nova Scotia.
2. CFB Gagetown - Gagetown, New Brunswick. Army Combat Training Centre [Infantry School, Armoured School, Artillery School], Militia Training Centre (MTC) Gagetown, 2nd Battalion Royal Canadian Regiment [Infantry] - {part of 2 Mech Bde Group - Petawawa, Ontario}, 3 Air Defense Regiment, 3 Engineer Support Regiment, 403 Tactical Helicopter Squadron (with Qty 14 CH-146 Griffon (upgraded Bell 412)), other support units.
3. Deployed across Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island - 36 Canadian Brigade Group (CBG) (Militia)
4. Deployed across New Brunswick and Newfoundland - 37 CBG (Militia)

- Air -
1. CFB Greenwood - Greenwood (Annapolis Valley), Nova Scotia. 14 Wing - Qty 13 CP-140 Aurora (like U.S. Navy Orion) long range patrol aircraft.
2. CFS Shearwater - Dartmouth, Nova Scotia. 12 Wing - Qty 12 CH-124 Sea King ASW helicopter - form detachments for deployment on Navy AOR, DDGs, and FFHs (due for replacement this decade - A very long story that I won't get into here. )
3. CFB Goose Bay - Goose Bay, Labrador. Tactical Flight Training Detachment (specialising in low-level flight training). Also permanent training detachments and rotating units from Royal Air Force, Luftwaffe, Italian Aeronautic Militaire, and Royal Netherlands Air Force.

4. CFS Gander - Gander, Newfoundland. Emergency airfield and support base for trans-Atlantic deployment flights.

Would you like me to continue for the rest of the country?

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Originally posted by Antares Administration:
Garf, this may be out of sequence with the way that you wanted to handle this but the topic of 'assets' did come up, so for the sake of informed discussion, here it is:

12 Wing - CH-124 Sea King ASW helicopter (due for replacement this decade - A very long story that I won't get into here. )

Would you like me to continue for the rest of the country?

Paul Nemeth
AA

Yes go for it. Please continue. This is exactly the sort of detail I lack. Re: sea kings. oooh don't get me started.

"God and the navy we adore, When danger threatens, not before" -- Rudyard Kipling.

 

[Antares Administration]

Military Bases and Facilities in Canada - 2003, by Region, with Canadian (and U.S. Equivalent) Descriptive Names - Part II

Quebec

- Navy -
1. Canadian Forces Detachment Quebec City - Quebec City, Quebec. Canadian Forces Naval Reserve Headquarters, Canadian Forces Fleet School Quebec.
2. Naval Reserve Divisions (training detachments):
a. HMCS Montcalm - Quebec City, Quebec.
b. HMCS Champlain - Chicoutimi, Quebec.
c. HMCS Donnacona - Montreal, Quebec.
d. HMCS D'Iberville - Rimouski, Quebec.
e. HMCS Jolliet - Sept-Iles, Quebec.
f. HMCS Radisson - Trois-Rivieres, Quebec.

- Army -
1. Land Force Quebec Area Headquarters - Montreal, Quebec.
2. CFB Valcartier - Valcartier, Quebec [suburb of Quebec City]. 5 Canadian Mechanised Brigade Group (5e GBMC):
a. 1st, 2nd and 3rd Battalions, Royal 22nd Regiment (the VanDoos) [Mech Inf],
b. 12th Armoured Regiment (12e Regiment Blinde du Canada) [Armour],
c. 5th Artillery Regiment of Canada (Light) (5e Regiment d'artillerie legere du Canada) [Mech Arty],
d. 5 Combat Engineer Regiment,
e. 430 Tactical Helicopter Squadron Qty 14 CH-146 Griffon (upgraded Bell 412)
f. other supporting units.
2. Deployed across Western Quebec, particularly the Montreal Region - 34 Canadian Brigade Group (CBG) (Militia)
3. Deployed across Eastern and Central Quebec, particularly the Quebec City Region - 35 CBG (Militia)

- Air -
1. CFB Bagotville - Bagotville (Saguenay Valley), Quebec. 3 Wing - Qty +/- 40 CF-18 Hornet (like U.S. Navy Hornet) multi-role fighter.

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[Antares Administration]

Military Bases and Facilities in Canada - 2003, by Region, with Canadian (and U.S. Equivalent) Descriptive Names - Part III

Ontario

- Headquarters -
1. National Defence Headquarters (NDHQ) - Ottawa, Ontario. Many National level resources are also located in Ottawa, e.g. Canadian Forces Communications Command, National Defence Medical Centre, etc.

- Navy -
1. Naval Reserve Divisions (training detachments):
a. HMCS Star - Hamilton, Ontario.
b. HMCS Cataraquai - Kingston, Ontario.
c. HMCS Prevost - London, Ontario.
d. HMCS Carleton - Ottawa, Ontario.
e. HMCS Griffon - Thunder Bay, Ontario.
f. HMCS York - Toronto, Ontario.
g. HMCS Hunter - Windsor, Ontario.

- Army -
1. Land Force Central Area Headquarters - Toronto, Ontario.
2. CFB Petawawa - Petawawa, Ontario [approx. 100km NW of Ottawa]. 2 Canadian Mechanised Brigade Group (2 CMBG):
a. 1st and 3rd Battalions, Royal Canadian Regiment (RCR) [Mech Inf] {2nd Battalion is deploy in Atlantic Canada},
b. Royal Canadian Dragoons (RCD) [Armour] [Leopard C2, LAV III, Coyote and variants],
c. 2 Royal Canadian Horse Artillery (2RCHA) [Mech Arty],
d. 2 Combat Engineer Regiment,
e. 427 Tactical Helicopter Squadron Qty 18 CH-146 Griffon (upgraded Bell 412)
f. other supporting units.
2. Deployed across South-Western Ontario (Windsor to Hamilton) - 31 Canadian Brigade Group (CBG) (Militia)
3. Deployed across Central Ontario, particularly the Toronto Region - 32 CBG (Militia)
4. Deployed across Eastern Ontario, particularly the Ottawa Region - 33 CBG (Militia)
5. Deployed across Northwestern Ontario, particularly around Thunder Bay and Sudbury - 38 CBG (Militia)

- Air -
1. CFB Trenton - Trenton, Ontario. 8 Wing - Qty +/- 24 CC-130 Hercules (like USAF Herc) transports, and Qty 5 CC-150 Polaris (converted Airbus A310) strategic transport and tanker.
2. CFB Borden - Angus, Ontario. Aerospace Engineering School, 16 Wing - Qty 7 CH-146 Griffon.
3. CFB Kingston - Kingston, Ontario. 1 Wing - HQ for all tactical helicopters deployed with Army Brigade Groups.
4. CFB North Bay - North Bay, Ontario. 22 Wing - NORAD hardened site, includes:
a. Alternate NORADHQ (back-up for Cheyanne Mountain, Colorado),
b. Sector Operations Control Centres for Canada East and Canada West sectors.

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[Sgt Biggles]

Good Grief!! You guys have been busy!! This is great stuff. Its going to take two days just to read through it.

The military formations are excellent. Who knows, maybe there will be a North Americian Source book put out someday.

I have a formally engaged daughter as of last saturday night, which means I'm just a few steps shy of being a grandpa.

The young man is a keeper, so I didn't have to kill him. Though after eating a plate of 5 habenaro fritters he might have thought I tried.

hehe. We did get our pictures on the Wall of Flame at a Jamacian Food place in Portland. Bonding. OK, enough personal stuff.

I'll get all this read. Thanks!!!

 

[BMonnery]

European Canadian Orbat (1988):

1 Division
1 Brigade (LSH, 1 PPCLI, 3 PPCLI, 3 RCR, 3 RCHA, 1 CER)
4 Brigade (RCD, 1 R22R, 2 PPCLI, 1 RCHA, 4 CER)
5 Brigade (12 RBC, 2 R22R, 3 R22R, 2 RCR, 5 RLAR, 5 RGC)

2nd Special Service Force (8 CH, CAR, 1 RCR, 2 RCHA, 2 CER)

AMF(L) Component: 1 Inf Bn (from above), 1 RCHA

LSH: Lord Strathcona's Horse
RCD: Royal Canadian Dragoons
12 RBC: 12e Regiment du Blindee de Combat
8 CH: 8th Canadian Hussars
PPCLI: Princess Patrica's Canadian Light Infantry
RCR: Royal Canadian Regiment
R22R: Royal 22e Regiment
CAR: Canadian Airborne Regiment
RCHA/ RLAR: Royal Canadian Horse Artillery/ Regiment du Legre Artillerie Regiment
CER/ RGC: Combat Engineer Regiment: Regiment du Genie de Combat

You want the militia as well?

Bryn

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Assuming we don't Kill the poor Sgt.
Sure.

I can't remember where I was on the Geopolitical scene...

Oh right... the West.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Originally posted by Sandman:
Hope you don`t mind if I correct you.

It's "Courreur des Bois"

They were mainly there for the action (discovering the country) and the trade (pelts and the like).
They were a great source of revenue for one of our oldest company, "La Compagnie de la Baie D'Hudson" (The Hudson's Bay Company, now nown as "The Bay") which has celebrated it's 350th anniversary some years ago.

They delt regularly with natives and were kind of D&D Rangers (minus the magic, duh

) [/QB]

When I was a kid the only place to shop was at The Bay. How could I forget. Thanks for the spelling correction. And I agree. you could also Call them Rangers instead of Scouts or fronteirsman. Ambassadors and Liason officers wouldn't have been an bad name for those 'Runners of the Woods" either.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

The West part 1: Ontario/Manitoba

"The West Begins at Barrie" I said in an earlier post. That was a bit of Hyperbole but certainly the same sort of sentiments regarding disenfranchisment pervade North Western Ontario as they do futher west.

And odd thing I've personally noted about western separatism: The further west you go. The further west the separatists think the eastern border should be. Manitobans don't see the need for any part of Ontario to join the west. Meanwhile Manitoba doesn't even show up on a BC separatist's radar.

The largest city in North Western Ontario (Thunder Bay) is only an 8 hour drive to Winnepeg as opposed to the 16 hour drive it is Toronto.

(more to follow)

 

[Antares Administration]

Originally posted by BMonnery:
European Canadian Orbat (1988):

1 Division
1 Brigade (LSH, 1 PPCLI, 3 PPCLI, 3 RCR, 3 RCHA, 1 CER)
4 Brigade (RCD, 1 R22R, 2 PPCLI, 1 RCHA, 4 CER)
5 Brigade (12 RBC, 2 R22R, 3 R22R, 2 RCR, 5 RLAR, 5 RGC)

2nd Special Service Force (8 CH, CAR, 1 RCR, 2 RCHA, 2 CER)

AMF(L) Component: 1 Inf Bn (from above), 1 RCHA

Bryn

And by 1995 (real life), much of that changed.

"Corps 86" was the organizational touchstone upon which the Army based all its real-life "re-operationalization". Notwithstanding the downsizing that resulted from the Peace Dividend, the Corps 86 and its successors are still effecting the organization, equipment and doctrine of the new Canadian Army. Corps 86 was a child of the new Cold War of the mid- to late 80s. The Soviets have T-80s, and the US has developed its deep manoeuvre doctrine.

1 Canadian Division, the Militia Brigade Group and many of the Corps level specialist units came about as a result of restructuring from an army of independant brigade groups to an army with 1 real division, and a corps on paper.

I'm putting together a copy of Corps 86 to paste here. In the alternate history of Twilight: 2000, it would have been some derivation of Corps 86 that the Canadians would have gone to war with.

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[Antares Administration]

Here's my first cut at how Corps 86 would have looked when it went to war in Twilight:2000.

The Regular Force Brigades (numbered 1, 2, 4, and 5) would form the core of the initial expeditionary forces. The current militia brigades (numbered 31 to 42) would remain territorial defence and training cadres. In the traditional British (and Canadian) regimental fashion, the cadre Regiments would raise, train and equip battalions for operations. Brigade numbers 3, and 6 to 30 are reserved for new operational formations, such as the ones below:

Germany - Part 1

1 Canadian Division

1. HQ 1 Cdn Div (real)

2. Div Recce Regt - King's Own Calgary Regiment [KO Calg R] (Armd) (real)

3. Div Arty 1 Cdn Div:
a. 1 RCHA (real)
b. 2 RCHA (real)
c. 5 RALC (real)
d. 56 Field Arty Regt RCA (real unit, notional eqpt)(Hy Arty - 155mm)
e. 20 Field Arty Regt RCA (real unit, notional eqpt)(MLRS)
f. 101 Target Aquisition Bty (real - consolidated from Regiments).

4. Div Engr Group 1 Cdn Div
a. 2 CER (real)
b. 5 RGC (real)
c. 711 and 712 Armd Engr Sqns (real - detached from Brigade Groups)
d. 4 Engineer Support Regiment [4 ESR] (real)

5. 1 Cdn Div HQ & Signals Regiment (real)

6. Div Anti-Armour Battalion - The British Columbia Regiment (BCR) (real)

7. Aviation:
a. 1 Tactical Aviation Wing HQ & Signal Squadron (real)
b. 408 Tactical Helicopter Squadron (obsn)(real but new eqpt)
c. 430 Tactical Helicopter Squadron (obsn)(ditto)
d. 444 Tactical Helicopter Squadron (obsn)(ditto)
e. 427 Tactical Helicopter Squadron (Tpt) (real)
f. 444 Tactical Helicopter Squadron (atk) (real squadron but new eqpt)
g. 1 Wing Maint Sqn (consolidated from real squadrons)

8. 1 Div Intelligence Company (real)

9. 1 Divisional Support Group (1 DISGP):
a. 1 DISGP HQ & Sig Sqn (notional)
b. 1 Service Battalion (real)
c. 2 Service Battalion (real)
d. 5 Battalion de Service (real)
e. 10 Maint Bn (consolidated from bde gps)
f. 10 Tpt Bn (ditto)
g. 10 Sup Bn (ditto)

10. 1 Div Medical Group (most already exist)

11. 1 Div MP Company (real)

12. 6 Mech Brigade (real, but understrength)
(1) 1st Hussars [1 H] (Armd)
(2) The Essex and Kent Scottish Regiment [1 E&K Scot] (Inf)
(3) 4th Battalion, The Royal Canadian Regiment [4 RCR] (Inf)
(4) The Royal Hamilton Light Infantry [RHLI](Inf)
(5) Bde Recce Sqn
(6) Bde Anti-Armour Sqn

12. 7 Brigade Mechanise (ditto)
(1) Le Regiment de Hull [R de Hull] (Armd)
(2) 1re Bn, Le Regiment de la Chaudiere [1 R de Chaud](Inf)
(3) 1re Bn, Le Regiment de Maisonneuve [1 R de Mais](Inf)
(4) 1st Bn, The Black Watch (Royal Highland Regiment) of Canada [1 HRC](Inf)
(5) Bde Recce Sqn
(6) Bde Anti-Armour Sqn

13. 8 Mech Brigade (ditto)
(1) 8 Canadian Hussars (Royal Canadians) [8 CH] (Armd)
(2) 1st Bn, The Loyal Edmonton Regiment [1 LER](Inf)
(3) 1st Bn, The Calgary Highlanders [1 Calg H]
(4) 1st Bn, The Royal Winnipeg Rifles [1 RWR] (Inf)
(5) Bde Recce Sqn
(6) Bde Anti-Armour Sqn

Of course, by the time the WMDs fly, 1 Div would be a shadow of its former self.

Still to come, the Expeditionary Group, Home Defence, and more.

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[Sgt Biggles]

Is there a 2nd Canadian Division or do other divisions fall under the Expeditionary Groups?

I have heard of the Black Watch(Royal Highland Regiment), but dont remember why. Do they perform dignitary protection or guard central government buildings?

The Essex and Kent Scottish Regiment sounds interesting. Is it manned by Canadian descendants of a historical unit from history past?

 

[Antares Administration]

Originally posted by Sgt Biggles:
Is there a 2nd Canadian Division or do other divisions fall under the Expeditionary Groups?

The Canadian Corps doctrinally has:

a. 2 Mech Inf Divs (1 Cdn Mech Div and 5 Cdn Mech Div - each with 3 Mech Inf Bdes),
b. 1 Armoured Div (3 Cdn Armd Div - with 2 Armd Bdes and one Mech Inf Bde),
c. 1 Armoured Cavalry Bde Group (as per the Div Armd Bdes, but with organic support and service support units),
d. 1 Mech Inf Bde Group (as per Mech Inf Bdes, but also with organic support and service support units), and
e. Corps Arty, Corps Engrs, Corps Service Command, etc.

2nd Cdn Inf Div last existed during WW2, when it was involved in operations in Normandy, Holland and Germany.


I have heard of the Black Watch(Royal Highland Regiment), but dont remember why. Do they perform dignitary protection or guard central government buildings?

The units that performs ceremonial duties in Ottawa are the Governor General's Foot Guards (Inf - Ottawa, Ontario), and the Canadian Grenadier Guards (Inf - Montreal, Quebec). The third Guards Regiment is the Governor General's Horse Guard (Armd - Toronto, Ontario). Canada does have a rich history of Highland Regiments - about a dozen regiments. During WW1 and WW2, we always had at least one brigade of Highland Infantry. Corps 86 is the same: one of the brigades in 5 Div has The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders of Canada (Princess Louise's) [A&SH of C], The Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders of Canada [Camerons of C], and The Seaforth Highlanders of Canada [Seaforth of C]. The Seaforths are famous for their participation in the disastrous raid at Dieppe in WW2. Interestingly enough, the armoured regiment in that brigade is The Queen's York Rangers (1st American Regiment) [QY Rang] (Armd - Toronto, Ontario). This is, I believe the last existing Canadian regiment which draws its origins from United Empire Loyalist families which remained loyal to the British Crown after fleeing the Thirteen Colonies in the American Revolution.

The Black Watch of Canada is another Highland Regt, and one of several who historically drew sponsorship or actually grew out of their British patron regiment. It's my understanding that during WW2, the UK, Australia and Canada each had a Black Watch Regiment.

The Essex and Kent Scottish Regiment sounds interesting. Is it manned by Canadian descendants of a historical unit from history past?

Historical, yes, but of Canadian origin. Essex and Kent counties in Ontario are on the US border and include the cities of Windsor, Chatham and Port Huron.

I've assumed that the two independant brigade groups, which would have the majority of the regular troops, would have been deployed early in any conflict, to one or two of the world's hotspots (any suggestions in the context of Tw:2000?) while the Militia Divisions are still mobilizing and training. My assumption will be 1 Div and elements of Corps Troops in Germany, the two independant brigade groups stranded in two remote hotspots, and one or both of the remaining divisions training and mobilized in Canada, but never deployed. My scenario is making the assumption that the Corps is split about 50/50 - deployed and in Canada.

NOTE: In today's reality, many of the militia regiments are very lucky if they include a company's worth of men. In peacetime and post-"Fall of the Wall", the E&K Scots, with two platoons and a small HQ, are typical. They only become expanded to full complement in mobilization, such as represented in Corps 86.

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

However in the Extended Cold War Environment of T2K, wouldn't recruitment, retention and training budgets be higher?

If Mech infantry units didn't have to go on excercise humping mech inf's gear as Leg infantry,

If the term 'militia bullet' wasn't synonymous with shouting 'Bang'

If... if if...

 

[Antares Administration]

Originally posted by Garf:
However in the Extended Cold War Environment of T2K, wouldn't recruitment, retention and training budgets be higher?

If Mech infantry units didn't have to go on excercise humping mech inf's gear as Leg infantry,

If the term 'militia bullet' wasn't synonymous with shouting 'Bang'

If... if if...

Absolutely, Garf. So in the Tw:2000 scenario, Canada would actually have had the time and political will to raise, equip and support a Corps worth of troops. The reality of the Canadian situation, however, is that over a period of years, we would have committed a brigade in this theatre, a division in that, etc. It wouldn't be a Corps in one theatre.

Also, the Corps would still have had Militia roots. By the time of the war, the Militia would have mobilized, deployed, been in combat, but it would still be volunteer.

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[BMonnery]

Originally posted by Garf:
However in the Extended Cold War Environment of T2K, wouldn't recruitment, retention and training budgets be higher?

If Mech infantry units didn't have to go on excercise humping mech inf's gear as Leg infantry,

If the term 'militia bullet' wasn't synonymous with shouting 'Bang'

If... if if...

I know now the militia regiments are miniscule, the Lake Superior Scottish, for example, essentially has a strength of 2 platoons.

http://www.lssr.ca/

The Canadian Army is great for regimental sites like this. Try using this: http://www.regiments.org/milhist/na-canada/lists/ca1994.htm

Bryn

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Very Cool.
I served under the guy whom I suspect wrote most of the history for the LSSR link. Given that his major is history and all his Thesis have been related to the Regiment.

In a Strange twist of fate do to meeting his older brother in a local Gaming Club that Same Officer and his teenage Daughter are, along with myself, members of the older Brother's Regular D&D group.

The Brother who works for a local school board in IT, is the one who emailed me the Link to this site and, the then upcomming, THB...

And thus the circle is complete?

 

[Antares Administration]

I've lost track now....

Are we still looking for the rest of the Corps? or do we have enough to work with?

Paul Nemeth
AA

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

I'm lost too. I think I got halfway through the regions.

I was aiming for someting of the Cultural flavour of the land. hard to define to an outsider I guess and get a start on how the country might breakdown under varios T2k scenarios.

Paul with your military experience. Where do you think most Militia units. which have a ... Regional Bias obviously in recruitment and staffing would fall in any split between the regions and Ottawa?

For that matter do you think any Reg Force units have the pottential to succumb to regionalism?