Canon 4. Variations on a Theme

[robject]

Rules. Consider that Traveller has two parts: rules mechanics which would affect all settings, and setting-specific rules. This has been discussed to death, and it has been resolved to my satisfaction. Your mileage may vary.

An example of those rules mechanics is the Scout Service. Non-Imperium settings need to deal somehow with the presence of Scouts in their universe, due to rules mechanics.

An example of setting-specific rules would be the existence of megacorporations. Rules mechanics (usually?) don't tie megacorps into the game -- usually setting text, such as Library Data, does that.


Third Imperium Settings. Now consider that the Third Imperium has variations.

Consider that it has OFFICIAL variations, and unofficial ones. The Lorenverse is a CANONICAL variation (put that in your pipe and smoke it!). Some people who love the Lorenverse but feel defensive about it -- perhaps due to a misplaced feeling by some who prefer the original TU -- would go so far as to label the "O" TU the variant. But I digress.

Now consider the unofficial variations. In the interest of sounding like a snob, I'll call them "accidents" in the sense that Aristotle uses the term -- their characteristics don't change the fact that they're about The Third Imperium setting. These accidents occur from rules mechanics as well as setting-specific rules.


Variations on a Theme. Finally, then, consider that each rules set defines its own variation on the Third Imperium setting. Each is self-consistent and detailed enough to run years of games. And each has a slightly different flavor.

Consider this a strength of Traveller.


The Challenge. The challenge, then, is not to unify all of the settings -- this may in many cases require changes to the core rules that the variations live in. No. Instead, treat them as niche ecosystems on the same planet.

The challenge, then, is to identify key variations on the theme of the Third Imperium, where each has something different to offer, so that the newcomer can make informed choices, and us old grognards can clearly promote Traveller well.

 

[kilemall]

Niche ecosystems?

Perhaps from a game engiineering perspective, but I think I would go with a different metaphor-

Entertainment Genre.

Some of the settings are Brave New Empire, others are Big Interstellar War, still others are Fall of Empire or Technological Terror.

A matrix of choice should also include a couple of tables like what Aramis made for my gearhead question, some tables to include style of combat resolution, task resolution, etc. etc.

An unfortunate side effect of marrying rules to genre is people might prefer one set of rulestyle but another setting outside the ruleset's associated 'RPG biome'.

 

[whulorigan]

Rules. Consider that Traveller has two parts: rules mechanics which would affect all settings, and setting-specific rules. This has been discussed to death, and it has been resolved to my satisfaction. Your mileage may vary.

An example of those rules mechanics is the Scout Service. Non-Imperium settings need to deal somehow with the presence of Scouts in their universe, due to rules mechanics.

An example of setting-specific rules would be the existence of megacorporations. Rules mechanics (usually?) don't tie megacorps into the game -- usually setting text, such as Library Data, does that.


Third Imperium Settings. Now consider that the Third Imperium has variations.

Consider that it has OFFICIAL variations, and unofficial ones. The Lorenverse is a CANONICAL variation (put that in your pipe and smoke it!). Some people who love the Lorenverse but feel defensive about it -- perhaps due to a misplaced feeling by some who prefer the original TU -- would go so far as to label the "O" TU the variant. But I digress.

Now consider the unofficial variations. In the interest of sounding like a snob, I'll call them "accidents" in the sense that Aristotle uses the term -- their characteristics don't change the fact that they're about The Third Imperium setting. These accidents occur from rules mechanics as well as setting-specific rules.


Variations on a Theme. Finally, then, consider that each rules set defines its own variation on the Third Imperium setting. Each is self-consistent and detailed enough to run years of games. And each has a slightly different flavor.

Consider this a strength of Traveller.


The Challenge. The challenge, then, is not to unify all of the settings -- this may in many cases require changes to the core rules that the variations live in. No. Instead, treat them as niche ecosystems on the same planet.

The challenge, then, is to identify key variations on the theme of the Third Imperium, where each has something different to offer, so that the newcomer can make informed choices, and us old grognards can clearly promote Traveller well.

THIS.

Thanks for writing that out so succinctly. This is the strength of Traveller and the "OTU".

Proto-Traveller, Millerverse-OTU, Lorenverse-OTU, and TNE-style "harder-science" OTU ALL have their own individual charms, even if they do not all seamlessly fit together.

It would be nice to have all of those different variations on setting, technology, and/or style of play clearly detailed for the player new to Traveller.

 

[robject]

It would be nice to have all of those different variations on setting, technology, and/or style of play clearly detailed for the player new to Traveller.

Fodder for new threads. Thanks Wayne.

 

[aramis]

Note that MegaCorps exist if one uses CT/MT advanced generation, as lateral promotion to larger line exists.

Likewise, multiple navies exists if using Advanced Gen, again, because of level hopping.

 

[robject]

It would be nice to have all of those different variations on setting, technology, and/or style of play clearly detailed for the player new to Traveller.

*Thread Resurrect*

Do I hear any volunteers?

I suspect some of you already know how your favorite ruleset makes the Imperium distinct from the Imperium of other rulesets.

• CT/MT
• TNE
• T4
• T20
• MgT
• T5
• TNE*1248

 

[Major B]

*Thread Resurrect*

We must be getting close to Halloween.

I suspect some of you already know how your favorite ruleset makes the Imperium distinct from the Imperium of other rulesets.

• CT/MT
• TNE

May I recommend separating CT from MT for purposes of what you are asking for. Some may disagree but I think there are significant tonal differences in additional to the significant structural differences between the two (not rules structure but structure of the Imperium).

In fact various CT sources can give you very different pictures of the Imperium. Compare the OTU of Adventure 1 to that of Supplement 9 and you have a number of significant disconnects. That said, taking the later products (which each individually fleshed out the Imperium more and more over time) as superseding the earlier ones where there are conflicts allows CT to be a more cohesive whole that (I think) is still significantly different in areas from MT.

However, I may have to reconsider the point since you stressed in another thread that DGP material is not canon. That being the case maybe the differences are minor enough that the consolidation is warranted. If I can find some free time for re-reading I might change my position.

Mike

 

[Ulsyus]

The challenge, then, is to identify key variations on the theme of the Third Imperium, where each has something different to offer, so that the newcomer can make informed choices, and us old grognards can clearly promote Traveller well.

Most people who come here are aware of the variations between the different settings, and posts above have neatly parsed them out.

I find it interesting how different iterations of the game, mechanically, can change the setting. When something becomes a common mechanical element of a game, the game tends to spend more time dealing with it.

If a game makes use of advanced ECM, counter-missiles, low-powered laser anti-missile fire and emphasises ship agility in vessels too small for repulsors, and all of those are easily or at least readily played through using the mechanics built for ship to ship combat, then the style of play will feel different to a game where the primary defence is fire from laser turrets.

Traveller is, when considering the variations, pretty unified in its approach to things, but the mechanical differences to make it easier or more difficult to do different things. This thread was about exploring cybernetics in CT, but that sort of thing is much easier to deal with using GT, while even TNE made prosthetics easier to deal with.

Those things add variations before any consideration is given to the prevailing TL that a campaign is based around, in that I reckon how the players perceive a setting that is based on TL 10 could be different to one where the prevailing TL is 13.

 

[Blue Ghost]

I'm not really sure I understand the purpose of either thread.

 

[robject]

At the moment, I'm thinking of a Concordance (thanks for the term, Jim!) to Traveller. A list of entries -- not too deep a dive, please -- and how they're defined in each ruleset.

Sounds like a pain. But at least it is only data gathering, rather than making judgement calls.

...a Concordance is not in the business of picking winners, but instead of documentation. "CT source A says this, Source B says that, and MT sources A through C say something as well. Marc says the following mixture of these is correct."

If you are one of those compulsive types, the above might drive you insane, since you're thinking that every single line needs to be catalogued and compared.

But actually we don't have that kind of time. Don thought he did. And, as we all can see, he didn't. So we take a pass over the data and do the largest concepts. Then the secondary concepts. And that's probably enough, since beyond that we get into the weeds. And (don't quote me here) I suspect that innovations for Traveller are in the weeds.

 

[mike wightman]

Do you mean Traveller or the Third Imperium setting?

The Third Imperium setting does not use the rules as written in CT, it isn't until MT that we have a Third Imperium the roleplaying game - and they blew up the Imperium in the process

Even Marc's novel contradicts CT and extant 3I canon, and bends some of the rules in T5 to boot (T5 says a wafer personality lasts a week, AotI says a month).

Then there is the question of how MgT fits into the scheme of things...

 

[whartung]

CT is the gestation of the Imperium in MT. The whole of CT is from Yolk to Chick, whereas in MT we get Rooster. CT is a continuum of change, whereas MT is a Snapshot looking back.

So, CT IS the Imperium (and CT is not just the 3 LBB), in fragments and discordant bits vs MT which is the Imperium writ large and more cast in stone.

 

[robject]

CT is the gestation of the Imperium in MT. The whole of CT is from Yolk to Chick, whereas in MT we get Rooster. CT is a continuum of change, whereas MT is a Snapshot looking back.

So, CT IS the Imperium (and CT is not just the 3 LBB), in fragments and discordant bits vs MT which is the Imperium writ large and more cast in stone.

We break it up in a way that makes sense. That means CT is at least Proto-Traveller and Advanced CT.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Do I hear any volunteers?

I suspect some of you already know how your favorite ruleset makes the Imperium distinct from the Imperium of other rulesets.

• TNE*1248

ME ME ME ME ME!
Partly because its my favorite setting. :coffeegulp:
:CoW: And partly because even the Time Lords never go this far into the future :rofl:

 

[robject]

Good to know, Nathan. Thank you.

 

[pendragonman]

CT is the gestation of the Imperium in MT. The whole of CT is from Yolk to Chick, whereas in MT we get Rooster. CT is a continuum of change, whereas MT is a Snapshot looking back.

So, CT IS the Imperium (and CT is not just the 3 LBB), in fragments and discordant bits vs MT which is the Imperium writ large and more cast in stone.

That was my experience as well.

 

[mike wightman]

I disagree.

The setting is getting conflated with the rules.

Traveller was a set of rules for designing your own universe to have fun in.

The Third Imperium was a setting used to showcase some of the rules, certainly not all since the Imperium did not stick to the tech paradigm in LBB:3 among other things.

MT was the first example of a 'Third Imperium: the role playing game'.

GT likewise is not Traveller, it is the Third Imperium powered by GURPS.

TNE was a completely re-imagined Imperium/OTU (remember the tech changes applied to 1105 as much as 1200) but offered referees options to go beyond the setting in FF&S.
And to quote Nathan Brazil as requested:
"TNE: 1248" despite its naming DOES NOT use TNE as a ruleset. It is a (relatively) "system-less" OTU setting. It uses elements "common" to the other games (UWPs), and uses the CT/MT/TNE Third Imperium history. The few direct examples of items favoring a specific ruleset are ships, which are described in CT Book 5/Supplement 9 terms. The rest is flavor text which itself may imply biases of favoring other "versions of Traveller".

T20 was another 'Third Imperium - a d20 powered roleplaying game'.

T4 and T5 are both 'Third Imperium - the role playing game'.

MgT 1e was a throw back to Traveller - here is a set of rules, make up your own stuff. Just look at the number of settings on drivethru, not to mention the settings Mongoose applied their Traveller rules to. Mindjammer traveller speaks volumes as to the flexibility of the rules system.

Then there is Cepheus - probably the closest thing to classic Traveller in spirit (but definitely not in rules - but that can be fixed :devil.

Ask why GDW had to blow up the 3I not once but twice. Read the interviews with Frank Chadwick and Dave Nilsen.

IMHO a 'T6' should go back to Traveller's roots in much the same way as 5eD&D - a set of rules for referees to create their own settings and to hell with 3I canon.

 

[welsh]

We needs us a "Like" button.

 

[Blue Ghost]

At the moment, I'm thinking of a Concordance (thanks for the term, Jim!) to Traveller. A list of entries -- not too deep a dive, please -- and how they're defined in each ruleset.

Sounds like a pain. But at least it is only data gathering, rather than making judgement calls.



If you are one of those compulsive types, the above might drive you insane, since you're thinking that every single line needs to be catalogued and compared.

Well, I guess I'm not compulsive about Traveller. When T4 was on the market on I only bought the books during Imperiumgames "going out of business" sale. I've never felt the need to have Striker, I only bought Invasion Earth just to have, and eschewed the other big Traveller war game (5th frontier war?).

So, with that in mind, and given that I've played all but one or two of the classic adventures and double adventures, I guess I'm not really seeing what the issue here is.

If you want a concordance of flavor text and background, then I think it's all there. If you want a concordance of rules, then that's irreconcilable by virtue that the different editions use different rule sets.

But, whatever does it for ya. I'm kind of shrugging my shoulders, but I'm curious to see where this leads.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

The setting is getting conflated with the rules.

I am agreeing with Mike. CT '77 came first, then cometh the 3I and the OTU. Given the technologies and rules assumptions the 3I is a nicely dovetailed into those rules (mostly).

This situation is similar to at least one other RPG. Chaosium's Runequest/Glorantha is what comes mind as the rules morphed into variations (CoC/Superworld/Legend/BRP/d100, etc.) of its core rules and the setting used different rules (AH Rnequest, HeroQuest). Not exacly, but similar.

Mike, please add/shorten this to your summations
"TNE: 1248" despite its naming DOES NOT use TNE as a ruleset. It is a (relatively) "system-less" OTU setting. It uses elements "common" to the other games (UWPs), and uses the CT/MT/TNE Third Imperium history. The few direct examples of items favoring a specific ruleset are ships, which are described in CT Book 5/Supplement 9 terms. The rest is flavor text which itself may imply biases of favoring other "versions of Traveller".