Canon 4. Variations on a Theme

[aramis]

Nathan: Greg Stafford has stated several times that Glorantha came first (in a boardgame design); The rules were written to reflect glorantha, not the other way around.
I quote now from 2E's page 3:

RuneQuest is a departure from most FRP (as they are abbreviated) games issued since the concept's introduction in 1974. Unlike most others, this game is tied to a particular world, Glorantha, first glimpsed through Chaosium's boardgames White Bear and Red Moon and Nomad Gods. Those who have not seen this world before will find part of it within these pages.​

Likewise, Traveller's Imperium's roots begin not in 1977 with Traveller, but in 1974, with the drafts of the later (1977) released Imperium. The game shipped in 77 with only vague hints, but the setting discussed in the adventures in 1979 already shared much with the Imperium boardgame...

Still, the "Big Ship" OTU is a departure in 1979 to 1980...

So CT has several layers to look at here:

• CT as Marc saw it at the dawn of the game (vaguely tied by 1978 to Imperium's setting - See the Imperium Designers notes in Dragon)
• CT as gamers generally saw it (Rules sans setting) in 1977-80
• CT as developers worked with in 1980 onward.

MT is a different beastie entirely...
It is, largely, devoid of Marc's direct attentions. It turns the setting to war. It had high goals and didn't meet them. And it drove two of the best writers (of a group of 6-8 overall) of the era out of the gaming industry in major burnout.

MT presents a different fleet and troop model from CT. Joe and Gary altered it to be more modern.
MT presents a different (and changing-in-setting) view of what warfare means to the setting, and how the effects of the 5FW change things.
MT also makes a number of small changes in the library data.

It's worth noting that many of MT's fans don't use the MT setting, instead using the late CT 3I.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Nathan: Greg Stafford has stated several times that Glorantha came first (in a boardgame design); The rules were written to reflect glorantha, not the other way around.....

I did not make my point sufficiently clear. I did underline the word similar. I was specifically referring to how the two RPG (Traveller and Runequest), who by reputation for the most part have one and only one associated campaign (Third Imperium and Gloratha) while in actuality weaved and un-weaved said reputatation.

It just took Traveller a much much longer time to do so.

It's worth noting that many of MT's fans don't use the MT setting, instead using the late CT 3I.

I know many people feel that way. but can you explain how that statement supports into the robject's idea of objectively concordancing (is that a word?)/cataloging 3I across its different iterations?

 

[mike wightman]

Traveller was inspired by D&D, the Dumarest novels and Astounding magazines. not the Imperium board game. MWM has said so, on YouTube

Terms from the Imperium board game were borrowed to provide the skeleton of the GDW house setting, the Third Imperium. The Third Imperium does not use all of the rules as written in 77 CT.

Nathan, I've added your 1248 bit.

 

[mike wightman]

Imperium - a remote central government mentioned in the intros to LBB4 and LBB5
The Third Imperium - more detail added in the library data of the early adventures and supplements 3 and 4. Yet more detail added by JTAS, especially the TAS news sections.
This is the proto-Imperium. The Imperium is grey to black, PCs can quite happily be freedom fighters and rebels on the frontier

81 CT removed some non-3I elements from the core rules, but remained setting-less. The Traveller Book, The Traveller Adventure and library data supplements began the modernisation of the 3I. This was the golden era that GT would seek to continue in the lorenverse.
The Imperium is now yanks in space and is painted in light gray to white.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Imperium - a remote central government mentioned in the intros to LBB4 and LBB5
The Third Imperium - more detail added in the library data of the early adventures and supplements 3 and 4. Yet more detail added by JTAS, especially the TAS news sections.
This is the proto-Imperium. The Imperium is grey to black, PCs can quite happily be freedom fighters and rebels on the frontier

81 CT removed some non-3I elements from the core rules, but remained setting-less. The Traveller Book, The Traveller Adventure and library data supplements began the modernisation of the 3I. This was the golden era that GT would seek to continue in the lorenverse.
The Imperium is now yanks in space and is painted in light gray to white.

I agree with this post, save for the last line. I really don't get a sense of a US military sensibility for the Imperial military. I keep hearing / reading this same assertion over the years, but I see no evidence of it.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

OK attempt 1 on the definition

1248 style, naturally.

Third Imperium (3I) - A former interstellar polity that occupied a large region of space which TNE: 1248 books focus upon. The was first mentioned in early CT adventures and Supplements 3 and 4 and built upon 20+ years of other sources related to the Traveller RPG.
At first glance a monarchy/empire, the 3I broke apart about 130 years prior into civil war due to the apparent assassination of its Emperor, a resulting unclear succession, communication lag times to the far reaches of empire and the regionalism that resulted.
The 3I may still exist, if only in name, in the region commonly known as the "Black Imperium Holocaust Region". The ruler of the region is an uploaded personality of the unconfirmed successor of the 3I. It is unknown if the upload still claims the area to be the 3I.

 

[aramis]

I agree with this post, save for the last line. I really don't get a sense of a US military sensibility for the Imperial military. I keep hearing / reading this same assertion over the years, but I see no evidence of it.

The skillsets are derived from, and the promotion and survival numbers "best fit to 2d6" for the 1975 Vietnam War deployed forces.

US Marines have a cutlass tradition - traveller turns that up to 11, so to speak.

It isn;t dead obvious untilm Bk 4... where the US Military's enlisted ranks are used, including the unique "Gunny"

there are 5 major systems of enlisted rank - German, French, US, UK/Commonwealth, and Spanish. Each has a different pattern of non-commissioned ranks, and the german french and spanish patterns have differeent naval officer ranks from the US/Commonwealth officers.

I mean, let's compare the US, UK, and french ground forces to German...

US	UK	German rough Translated	German	French
Gen of the Army	Field Marshal	Field Marshal	Feldmarshal*	Marechal de France
General	General	General	General	General d'armee
Lt Gen	Lt Gen	Lt Gen	Generalleutnant	General de corps
Major Gen	Major Gen	Major Gen	Generalmajor	General de diision
		Colonel General*	Generaloberst*
Briadier Gen	Briadier Gen	Briadier Gen	Brigadegeneral	General de brigade
	Brigadier*/Reg Col*
Col.	Col.	Col	Oberst	Colonel
Lt. Col.	Lt. Col.	Lt. Col	Oberstleutnant	Lieutenant–Colonel
Maj	Maj	Major	Major	Commandant
		Senior Capt	Stabshauptman
Capt	Capt	Capt	Hauptman	Capitane
1st Lt	Lieutenant	Senior Lieutenant	Oberleutnant	Lieutenant
2nd Lt.	Sublieutenant	Lieutenant	Leutnant	Sous-lieutenant

The UK has dropped Brigadier in favor of Brigadier General, but they are separate ranks, and did, briefly, coexist. Regimental Colonel is an honorific title, but if serving, is entitled to wear the crown & 3 bath stars of a brigadier. The German Colonel-general is no longer in use.
The US has "General of the Armies" above General of the Army, but never even approved insignia for it. Technically, it's the "Field Marshal" equivalent, as most of the others had a marshal below field marshal, and the US Gen of the Army is the marshal equivalent...

Enlisted get very different.

Oh, and note that the JIS ranks as described 1/2/3 small starbursts, then 1/2/3 large ones, is closer to the US Army Cadet Officers' system: 1/2/3 disks, then 1/2/3 diamonds, than to the UK
The UK insignia are 1/2/3 bath stars, then Crown, Crown+Bath, crown+2 bath, then crown+3 bath for Brigadier, then Baton/sword, then baton/sword+crown, then Baton/sword+crown+bath star, then wreathed baton/sword.
German modern is 1/2/3/4 pips, wreathed pip + 0/1/2 pips, then gold wreathed pip plus 0/1/2/3/4 gold pips.
WW2 : Aluminum narrow strap with 0-3 pips (tho Stabshauptman was not actually used then), then wide aluminum strap with 0-2 gold pips, then gold & aluminum strap with 0-3 gold pips, then gold & aluminum with crossed batons, then all gold with crossed batons.
Of course, the imperium is actually closer still to the USSR
1/2/3/4 small stars, then 1/2/3 medium stars, then 1/2/3/4 larger stars, then the Marshals with the arms of the USSR. (I've found a KGB manual in a library that shows a Starshii Colonel at 4 medium stars... the rank was authorized but apparently never used)

 

[Blue Ghost]

Aramis, wow, that's a lot of data, but I get your point though, and thanks for the charts. Sidebar; I always understood that a British "Sea Lord" was a rank above admiral.

From an aesthetic and artistic POV for the game's setting, the Imperial Army (and other services) to me feel more like a classic British WW1 era force. Having said that, the Imperial marines (after their portrayal in "Into the Glimmerdrift"), to me, do feel a bit like "Yanks in Space".

Is there a solution? And would this help Robject get through his canonical conundrum?

 

[whulorigan]

Sidebar; I always understood that a British "Sea Lord" was a rank above admiral.

To my knowledge, "Sea Lord" and/or "1st Lord of the Admiralty" are political appointments of the British Government (similar to the US Secretary of the Navy), not Naval Ranks .

 

[Condottiere]

It's easier for the majority of players to relate to the listed ranks and implied hierarchical and organizational structure of the Imperium military.

Downsized militaries tend to get stuck with a legacy structure that forces them to inflate ranking.

 

[aramis]

Aramis, wow, that's a lot of data, but I get your point though, and thanks for the charts. Sidebar; I always understood that a British "Sea Lord" was a rank above admiral.

From an aesthetic and artistic POV for the game's setting, the Imperial Army (and other services) to me feel more like a classic British WW1 era force. Having said that, the Imperial marines (after their portrayal in "Into the Glimmerdrift"), to me, do feel a bit like "Yanks in Space".

Is there a solution? And would this help Robject get through his canonical conundrum?

There is a simple fix for the US-military feel in Bk4-5... and it makes it fit back to Bk1, as well...
use UK derived enlisted ranks, maximum one grade per term:

Ground	Navy	Insignia (G)
RSM	Senior Chief Petty Officer	4 Chevrons & Crown
Sjt Major	Chief Petty Officer	4 chevrons
Senior Serjeant	Senior Petty Officer	3 chevron & crown
Serjeant	Petty Officer	3 chevron2
Corporal	Junior Petty Officer	2 chevron
Lance Corporal	Leading Seaman	1 chevron
Private	Seaman	None

Note that the extant UK/Commonwealth Naval ranks use ...
CPO1 (WO1) Arms of the country
CPO2 (WO2) Crown, large (On hat
CPO (non Warrant)
Petty officers: crossed fouled anchors.
Leading Seaman: Single Fouled Anchor
Able Seaman: two fretted ropes.
Seaman aprentice (seldom used): 1 knotted rope
Recruit: no insignia

PO's need more clarification:
if only one grade, it's just the crossed fouled anchors. If two, the senior adds a crown above.
If three petty officer grades, anchors, then anchors and star, then anchors and crown. Note, however, that "Acting Petty Officer" was, depending upon specific year, any of: crossed plain anchors, Single fouled anchor plus star, single fouled anchor + crown.
Also note: proficiency badges are also usually worn. They have 3-5 stages at various times... Mark, Mark & Star, (Mark and 2 Stars), Mark & Crown, (Mark & Crown and Star)... Most of what I see now in use is only the mark and one emblem.
Also, Naval chevrons indicate long service years... not rank.

Oh, and no commonwealth country I've een has 3 levels of CPO... but a few it's still a non-warrant for CPO, then the senior grade is a warrant officer.

Oh, and the Canadians? They're weird. same insignia all services. (Including RCMP, Police, etc)...

http://www.forces.gc.ca/assets/FORC...tory-badges-colours-flags/insignia-poster.pdf

 

[pendragonman]

Aramis, we have had five 5-star generals. Arnold, Bradley, Eisenhower, MacArthur, Marshall.

EDIT: I forgot the Fleet Admirals (also 5 star) Nimitz, Halsey, King and Leahy.

There was a move to give Petraeus a fifth star that didn't happen.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_of_the_Army_(United_States)

 

[Spartan159]

I'm not such a grognard that I feel comfortable arguing sources or timelines or such. I am simply going to say I for one was happy to have the framework of the 3I. No one ever said it had to be used in anyone's particular universe.

I am very disquieted by the phrase "yanks in space" while I am at it.

 

[mike wightman]

The later CT material and then MT americanised the Imperium - I didn't make the term 'yanks in space' up, it has been used for along time now.
Think of the number of discussions about the IN that include references to the USN, or how the USMC is a model for the INM - you will find lots of threads on these boards.

 

[Blue Ghost]

My issue with Yanks in Space is not the nomenclature but rather this history of the Imperial military. The Flag Emperor's, as an example, used their marines as personal armies to assault planets, raid and establish authority. And according to official Traveller lore it wasn't just admirals asserting to be emperor, but any rogue or opportunistic fleet commander with some forces. To me that speaks more of an imperial Roman kind of thinking.

Getting back on topic, I think Robject's issues are with rules verse OTU canon. I'm not sure why the emphasis is on T5 since MgT is the big popular version right now (in spite of the paltry traffic here regarding it).

 

[Condottiere]

The Imperium history seems analogous to Roman.

Once you start making the Marines practically an independent expeditionary arm by itself, you're going to get comparisons to the USMC, compared to the Confederation's, which looks more like the British variant.

 

[mike wightman]

The Third Imperium was definitely Roman inspired, I think Loren, Frank and Marc have all stated as much in different interviews.

Perhaps it would have been a bit clichéd to make the Imperial Army and Imperial Star Marines based on maniples, cohorts and legions rather than companies, battalions and regiments.

 

[aramis]

The Third Imperium was definitely Roman inspired, I think Loren, Frank and Marc have all stated as much in different interviews.

Perhaps it would have been a bit clichéd to make the Imperial Army and Imperial Star Marines based on maniples, cohorts and legions rather than companies, battalions and regiments.

It would have matched some of the source fiction - to wit, portions of the Falconberg's legion.

 

[Condottiere]

I don't know the structure of the French Foreign Legion, but historically a maniple were two brigaded centuries, before the Marian Reforms.

Though armywise, I don't think they'd extend the chain of direct command beyond the sector level.

 

[mike wightman]

I have just discovered how much of an idiot I am. While researching the roman legions I have discovered Imperium does not mean Empire - it means 'power to command' or to quote Wikipedia "the power vested by the state in a person to do what he considers to be in the best interests of the state". That latter quote sounds a bit familiar doesn't it?

I also rediscovered this:

In the Roman military, a dux would be a general in charge of two or more legions. While the title of dux could refer to a consul or imperator, it usually refers to the Roman governor of the provinces. As the governor, the dux was both the highest civil official as well as the commander-in-chief of the legions garrisoned within the province.

redrafting for the Third Imperium:
In the military of the Third Imperium, a subsector duke would be a general in charge of two or more legions or household troops (huscarls). The title of subsector duke also refers to the Imperial governor of the subsector. As the governor, the duke is both the highest civil official as well as the commander-in-chief of the Imperial forces garrisoned within the subsector.