Capturing a planet?

[Jame]

This is inspired by the "Invading Star Systems/Defending Them" post.

Now, let's assume that you've successfully managed to take over a star system, but haven't taken its mainworld. Also, there's something on the planet (population, resources, high levels of urbanization) that you want to capture and which prevents you from nuking it 'til it glows. What do you do?

 

[vutpakdi]

Is it reallistically possible to capture a self sufficient planet with a decent population and industrial base if widespread destruction is unacceptable? Seriously, think of the number of troops that would have to be landed. The US currently has 100k or so (give or take 50k) troops in Iraq. Imagine having to transport and supply millions (10 million? 100 million?) of troops to take and pacify a world of 5-6 billion.

If the world isn't self sufficient, a long siege may do the trick.

If the population is small and tightly concentrated, then, as long as not too many natives get out into the bush, you could probably do it.

Otherwise, other than coopting leaders and winning the populace over somehow, I'm not sure that it is realistic to be able to transport and supply enough troops to take a planet that doesn't want to be taken if widespread destruction isn't acceptable.

Ron

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Depends a lot on the world in question. Give us a UWP.

 

[Whipsnade]

Jame wrote:

"Now, let's assume that you've successfully managed to take over a star system, but haven't taken its mainworld. Also, there's something on the planet (population, resources, high levels of urbanization) that you want to capture and which prevents you from nuking it 'til it glows. What do you do?"


Jame,

It will all depend on your reasons for not nuking the planet out of hand. Whatever that 'something' is, it drives your whole invasion and subsequent occupation.

Back in the early 80s, Task Force Games published a nifty little, planetary invasion, ziplock game called 'Tau Ceti' (You may remember TF Games, they were the original publishers of Star Fleet Battles and Satrfire.) There was one phrase in the designers' notes that has always stuck with me; 'If control everything on a world worth controlling, then you control that world.'

The phrase was meant to explain the presence of objective hexes on the game map; those were the bits worth controlling. TFG deliberately left them vague. Were they unobtanium mines? Uberwidget factories? Urban areas full of hoi polloi? Magic fountain dispersing free booze? Who knows, but they were the bits that made the planet worth having.

Let's say your reason for not nuking is that the planet has extensive lanthanum deposits and is the only known source of naturally occurring cocktail umbrellas. You invade, defeat any indigenous forces, then occupy the mines and cocktail umbrella tree orchards. The rest of the planet can go hang, just as long as no threat to your occupation arises there. The mines and orchards can be surrounded by a 200km wide, shoot on sight, dead zone and staffed by quislings. The rest of the planet can simply be patrolled at a distance and raided as necessary in order to prevent the recreation of any indigenous forces large enough to oust you from your new mines and orchards.

Now, if your reason for not nuking is that you wish to impress on the populace the might of the Imperium and the futility of rebellion, you've got a much bigger problem. You can't get away with merely occupying mines and orchards, you've got to occupy their minds. You'll need more troops who will then be more occupied with and in more danger among the locals.

As Mr. Boulton points out, a lot of things depend on the world's UWP. Is the populace gathered into sealed arcologies shielding them from a hositle local enviroment or is there a planet full of wilderness to hide in? Is the population 4 million or 4 billion? The questions are endless.

Finally, one of the rationales behind TF Games 'control the bits worth having and control the world' had to do with the number of troops you need to lift into the theatre. The much used phrase 'orders of magnitude' comes alive when you look at the supply needs of 100K men versus the supply needs of 10 million men.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Jame]

1. No, I don't remember TF Games having published that game, but it was the early 80s, so I was in my early years (I'm a "tender" 23 years). I do remember TFG, though...

2. I'm not sure what the UWP would be, but let's say tl~(about)12, with strong agriculture and industry, 500 million plus pop. and some strategic resources (lanthanides, rare earths) that you want to capture, plus starship yards. The reason not to nuke it is that you've been ordered to capture it unirradiated.

 

[The Oz]

Originally posted by Jame:
2. I'm not sure what the UWP would be, but let's say tl~(about)12, with strong agriculture and industry, 500 million plus pop. and some strategic resources (lanthanides, rare earths) that you want to capture, plus starship yards. The reason not to nuke it is that you've been ordered to capture it unirradiated.

With that much population and technology (assuming my technology is roughly equal), I think the only way to take this planet intact is to lay siege and wait them out. At that TL they're likely to be integrated into the interstellar economy and sooner or later they'll run out of something they need. But it could be a long, long wait filled with lots of in-system skirmishing against planetary defense forces.

To invade such a world would take the resources of an entire developed sector, if not more. Very, very expensive. You'd only do it if you really had to.

If I did have to, first thing is espionage, subversion and infiltration. I want to know all I can about their planetary defenses, government leaders, and industrial centers. I then use that information to bribe some and kill/neutralize others to reduce the resistance before I even land.

Then the Navy comes in with a horde of smaller ships to destroy orbital defenses, drive any SDBs into hiding, and deliver the jump troops to the surface. Smaller ships risk less to surviving enemy deep meson gun sites.

Once the jump troops have a planethead the main body of troops land and begin to take the rest of the planet. Navy ships provide close support to the troops and serve as alternative targets for any deep meson guns (a ship-sized meson gun makes one heck of a battlefield meson gun).

I would expect to need an army for this: at least 1 million troops, quite possibly more, and I'd expect to take heavy casualties, both in troops and ships.

 

[Zutroi]

Originally posted by Jame:
1. No, I don't remember TF Games having published that game, but it was the early 80s, so I was in my early years (I'm a "tender" 23 years). I do remember TFG, though...

2. I'm not sure what the UWP would be, but let's say tl~(about)12, with strong agriculture and industry, 500 million plus pop. and some strategic resources (lanthanides, rare earths) that you want to capture, plus starship yards. The reason not to nuke it is that you've been ordered to capture it unirradiated.

You need another bit of UWP - atmosphere type. Subjugating a planet where everyone is huddled into environmental domes is a trivial task compared to doing it on a planet-wide Eden...

 

[Richard Saunders]

Hello.
My thoughts on the matter.
At least 1 combat soldier for every 100 enemy civilians (not medical or supply must be troops carrying guns on the streets) Also 1 policeman for every 1000 civilians (soldiers dont make good watchers but make good guards). Which is why you see soldiers guarding street corners (you dont loose many corners, and they are a visible sign of what will happen if you do something they dont like).
I would also ban all media from off planet (on planet media would have free rain to report all atrosities both mine and there's).
Most people just want to get on with life as safe and sound as possible.
This may not work but it's close to the only system that has sofar worked on this planet down through the ages (short of killing all the population),this works but you said i'm not allowed.
If the Americans can do it with four tv cameras on every corner they deserve a medal, they wont get one just blamed for everything that goes wrong.
It's amazing how people will put up with things, thousands of iraquies disappeared at 3am and where never seen again (not a peep)Sorry there friends and relatives probably did protest but if they did they probably disappeared to), Three looters are arrested and thousands roam the streets in protest
SORRY,SORRY started well tripped and fell.
More sock race.

Poor taste joke warning.
How come someone hasn't started selling t'shirts with a drawing of sticks of dinamite strapped across the front (like those t'shirts with ruffles and a bow tie on them).
Buy warmonger bonds.

 

[Jame]

Oh yes, atmosphere. Not an Eden, but pretty much like Earth. I realize that there are literally thousands of variations here, but well...


Here's another variation - a tl15 civilization is invading a low-tl8 planet (assume Earthlike) to use as a strategic base against another high-tl civilization.

 

[vutpakdi]

Originally posted by Jame:

Here's another variation - a tl15 civilization is invading a low-tl8 planet (assume Earthlike) to use as a strategic base against another high-tl civilization.

This variant is relatively easy. If all is needed is a strategic base, just use a nearby moon or planet. If an earthlike atmosphere is required, then buy off the government with high tech goodies, trade, etc. Not fighting is still the best and probably cheapest route.

If the government won't play, land a regiment of marines to take over a good sized, lowly populated island that is far away from the mainland. A marine regiment, a carrier, and accompanying escort vessels should be more than enough to deal with local resistance if the planet is only TL 8 and the good sized island is far enough away from other land masses and as far away from the centers of civilization as possible. Taking over just an island should be more than enough for a strategic base. No need to take over the entire planet.

Ron

 

[Jame]

An addition to the wrinkle: This tl8 Earthlike world is _like Earth_ - balkanized, angry and (twist) it just fought a limited nuclear war. And all the various nations take exception to your very presence in the solar system...

 

[outrider11]

how about destroying the food supply with chemical warfare. starvation will go along way to entice surrender

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Originally posted by Jame:
An addition to the wrinkle: This tl8 Earthlike world is _like Earth_ - balkanized, angry and (twist) it just fought a limited nuclear war. And all the various nations take exception to your very presence in the solar system...

Oh, that one's easy. There's virtually nothing TL8 can do against TL15 (think Independence Day).

First, you demonstrate your overwhelmingly superior firepower, say by destroying a few underground bunkers with meson strikes, shooting down anything that tries to take off, wiping out an entire armoured brigade with a couple of grav tanks, etc.

Then you ask them to surrender.

If they refuse, pick one of the nations and make them an offer: either help us, and we'll give you the world, or we turn your entire country into radioactive glass. When they agree, you use them as a base and as ground troops to conquer the rest of the planet.

Let's face it, if the Vilani turned up today, the Interstellar Wars would last about 15 minutes.

Alternatively, be nice to them: "We come in peace. Here, have unlimited free energy, a cure for every disease, and all the food you can eat."

 

[Whipsnade]

Jame,

Mr. Boulton has it completely right. There won't be an invasion of your TL-8 world. What there will be is a stampede of folks lining up to volunteer as quislings.

Not to say that won't be an interesting scenario!


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[TKalbfus]

It all depends on the amount of force you have at your disposal. Could a TL15 Scout ship take over an entire Earth-sized TL7 planet? It is TL15 after all. I think the task is not so easy. What if its a TL7 planet filled with religious fanatics, and a bearded cleric says your the devil? Then you have a bunch of looneys who bring their children and their grandpa's over to be mowed down by your laser cannons and bombs until you run out of energy and munitions. Its an offer they can't resist, "free tickets to paradise" if they die battling you.

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Not to say that won't be an interesting scenario!

Yeah, I want to play it now!

It all depends on the amount of force you have at your disposal. Could a TL15 Scout ship take over an entire Earth-sized TL7 planet?

A CruRon could probably do it.

 

[vutpakdi]

Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
It all depends on the amount of force you have at your disposal. Could a TL15 Scout ship take over an entire Earth-sized TL7 planet?

The cost of taking a planet doesn't only depend on the amount of force available. The cost also depends on the amount of acceptable damage, the type of force available, the quality and number of the opposition, and the type of planet.

Shades of a previous discussion, but if a TL-12 scout ship were to show up in our solar system, it could easily start pushing asteroids towards the planet until at least some countries surrendered or made a treaty in order to be first in line to receive technical goodies.

The hard part as specified by Jame is that the planet has to be taken without significant, widespread damage.

Ron

 

[savage]

I believe most are in agreement that it will vary completely from world to world and govt/pop to govt/pop. I'll just add two words:

orbital artillery


Savage

 

[jatay3]

Why conquer the planet? Just capture what you need and make sure it's well defended. The Imperium is always enduring some war someplace anyway. It has always been a common strategy in history. The big guy takes the roads, the rivers, and the valleys and leaves the barbarians to gripe all they want in the wilderness. Besides if they gripe to much it gives the soldiers practice.

 

[jatay3]

The effectivness of irregular forces has been exaggerated. A competant counterinsurgent can go on forever: most guerrilla victories are won because the government got tired or the rebels had an outside ally (I.E. Wellington and the Spainiards vs. Napolean). Or because the government wasn't very powerful to begin with. The Imperium has vast resources and does not have to worry about public relations-most people don't care what happens on another one of 11,000 worlds. The Imperium can escalate or deescalate at will. There is no hope of support if it's near the core of the Imperium. If it's near the border-while we all know them borders are nasty places.