Capturing a planet?

[savage]

hard targets" suddenly explode for no obvious reason -- isn't some sort of ground-penetrating "deep radar" fairly canonical? -- Marginaleye

Actually if your talking about densimeters they're distance isn't that good unless your at extreme tech levels. It would also takes time to search for underground hard targets 1+km deep. Well there are meson communicators and weapons. However, there are also meson screens.

This is all a case-by-case discussion. Lower tech is extremely vulerable but a high tech world can defend itself (for example in my own campaign).

Time is on the side of the defender. If the enemy has say 500 Vargr ships and your rich enough to have 100 Deep Meson Gun (DMG) sites, and multiple passive sensor installations (on moons, sea floors, disguised as TV receivers or bird nests...). Then the invasion force must have intel and act very quickly or utterly fail.

Nuclear tipped bunker busters will cause some havoc (assuming no imperium to interfere with)
but realistically 5 DMGs target each ship with
nukes and its end game. Multiple nuclear explosions in orbit could be significantly damaging to an assault fleet.

So, ya get heroic. "Bring in the landing ships hard, we'll take that starport with troops!" I alter the trajectories of my meson defense for Russian-style fallback, scorched Earth hits on my own planet...oops no more starport to take, no more army to take it..."my ship seems to have had an unfortunately accident"--kirk to klingon commander.

Earlier, I suggested that Orbital Artillery is the only real assault method. Well it needs to be fast...aka ID4. But you cannot give the ground forces time to regroup. And you need to wipeout communications. More realistically, random meson hits by the orbital fleet against tactonic plate ridges (earthquake zones) or under city infrastructure would probably be more effective than searching for elusive DMGs. If their not over a klick deep they shouldn't have bothered.

Savage

 

[Anthony]

Originally posted by marginaleye:
One ideal use for meson guns is to freak out would-be defenders who think they can hide/protect critical installations by burying them under a kilometer of rock and/or concrete. Think of the incredible demoralization that would quickly set in, when all those supposedly "hard targets" suddenly explode for no obvious reason -- isn't some sort of ground-penetrating "deep radar" fairly canonical? If not, it ought to be.

Penetrating sensors exist in MegaTraveller, but disappeared again in later versions of Traveller (densiometers exist in later versions, but don't have cinematic capabilities).

 

[Andrew Boulton]

Lower tech is extremely vulerable but a high tech world can defend itself (for example in my own campaign).

The Battle of Terra shows that a well-defended, hi-pop, hi-tech world is *very* difficult to capture.

 

[savage]

Alright...I pulled out my MT ref book.

Densitometers (available on starships or in a hand held variety) - are classified as low penetration and high penetration. A densitometer with any penetration beyond surface can give a density map of an objects interior to the pentration level shown. (The're are alot of references to starships scans and distances from them ... but hey if kirk can do it.)

Low Pen
TL10 surface...
TL15 250m
TL16 1km
etc..
Hi Pen
TL11 1m...
TL15 1km
TL16 25 km
etc...
TL18 250km

So get some TL16 support and come on. Its still a multiple scan activity...aka ya need intel up front. Then your scanning for materials and energy patterns. So, I run my DMGs with planetary thermal energies. Abundant, never needs refueling, and I use hard to scan bedrocks (irons) for armour. The invader still needs to find 100 DMGs.

I still believe orbital artillery is the only way to crack this project but wouldn't want anyone to think its easy. After re-reading this it re-enforces some thoughts regarding the outcome of the Rebellion.

Savage

 

[Jame]

Warning! Sub-thread Ressurection Warning!

Well, I started reading John Ringo's "A Hymn Before Battle," and I like it (hey! He killed off Ellsworthy! She was my favorite character! HEY!), but while it has some ideas worth using (and prompted others, such as rioting when the offworlders are announced, pay no attention to that unless you're me, and since none of you are me...), it's rather different in certain aspects. Now if I could only go and make myself write in these changes...

Oh, by the way, if anyone wants to see my outline, email me at lesleychef@DELETECAPITALSaol.con.

 

[Drakon]

So, what you are setting up is like the Japanese war in the Solomons? Where one side or the other had to establish a base on the world, because of the opposition's tactical plans? And the planet itself is inhabited by "backward" folks?

 

[Jame]

Knowing nothing of _why_ the battle of the Solomons was fought, I can't really say. But it sounds, oh, similar...

Oh, and welcome to the boards, Drakon!

 

[The Oz]

Brief history of WW2 Solomon Islands campaign:

As part of their subsidiary effort in the Pacific War, the Japanese moved to isolate Australia from America by seizing a series of islands to use as bases to interdict sea travel. They landed on Guadalcanal at the southern end of the Solomon Island chain to begin their attempt at this strategy.

The Americans decided to put a stop to this, but also made it a secondary priority (both sides considered the main war to be somewhere else) and launched a counterattack to capture the Japanese base on Guadalcanal in August 1942. This led to a seesaw series of land, air, and sea battles that lasted for almost 6 months before the Japanese finally gave up and withdrew. At times air, sea, and land battles were going on simultaneously.

For the Americans it was a hard lesson in the school of war. Many ships, planes and lives were lost to ignorance of the enemy or just plain unreadiness. For the Japanese it was another step on the attrition war downslope that would bring them to the end.

The native peoples of the Solomons mostly sat the war out, but some did aid one side or the other. Usually the Japanese managed to upset the natives more than the Americans.

 

[Whipsnade]

Gents,

Check out www.combinedfleet.com for a nifty look at the Imperial Japanese navy. The campaign and battles maps, plus the summaries, will take hours to wade through. The links list is incrediable too.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[savage]

Last I knew we were discussing the differences that must be taken into consideration when taking a high tech world (TL15). Who cares about taking backwater worlds. Send a rusted AHL.

The WWII comparison is not entirely accurate. This was the Japanese vs US. The goal was
to eventually take Australia. Perhaps it is comparing Zho vs Imperium playing front lines with the border worlds... the scale is not the issue.

Savage

 

[pwilcox]

Ok, here's my method for a high-pop, high-TL invasion:

Step 1: Find an area that'll be good for containing the populace. Large island chain, geographically separated plateau, whatever works. Set up base there.

Step 2: Pull out your biosensors and start dropping hostage gas in highly populated areas. (For those unfamiliar, hostage gas makes you die 7 days after exposure, so you'd better go get that antidote...)

Step 3: Provide the antidote for free, but only for those who accept containment.

Step 4: Continue gassing the populace as necessary.

Now some problems you'll run into using this method:

-Obviously the populace could figure out their own antidote. Solution: Use several different gas types, switch them up. Also, if you work quickly enough they won't have the time to do so.

-It can be difficult to gas underground bunkers. I think this has been covered pretty well however.

-Against an equal TL world you'll have great difficulty succeeding with this. Really it'll just turn into a slightly shorter siege.

 

[Whipsnade]

Jered Farstrider:

"Ok, here's my method for a high-pop, high-TL invasion: [Snip of a four step "plan"]


Mr. Farstrider,

Words fail me. I kept reading your post over and over looking for the punch line. There isn't one, is there?

You seriously propose GASSING a planet with a population of over one BILLION? Gassing them with a series of mythical 'Seven Day To Kill You' compounds of which only you hold the antidotes for? You seriously believe that they'll all line up and surrender for the antidotes? Can you even distribute the antidote to them in the time alloted? Let's see; seven days, 168 hours, 10080 minutes, 604800 seconds so, given a billion people, you'll have to give the antidote to about 1653 of them every second in order to get the job done in 7 days.

Do you even realize how many kamikazes and suicide bombers your gassing just created?

The idea is to take over the planet in good enough shape that you can use its people, facilities, and resources. If all we needed to do was 'take' the planet, we'd have nuked it from orbit long ago.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[savage]

I must agree completely with Larsen.

Not to mention mass murdering civilians intentionally...any high tech world would have searched your incoming vessel before allowing it to land and woud've shot you as a terrorist or convicted you of war crimes. Lets say you tried running from the patrol cruisers...I suspect your forgetting completely about DMGs (deep meson gun) sites. You'd be vaporized in orbit in whatever ship you were intending this effort in.

Suggest re-reading all of the posts for this thread.

Savage

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by Jered Farstrider:
Ok, here's my method for a high-pop, high-TL invasion:

Step 1: Find an area that'll be good for containing the populace. Large island chain, geographically separated plateau, whatever works. Set up base there.

Besides the comments above, I wasn't able to get past step one. We have established that a) this is a high-pop, high-TL worlds, and yet b) you can freely pick and chose and set up your base wherever you want.

Come again?