Sustainable Tech Levels?

[Timerover51]

Or at least until Cleopatra sold out to them to get Arsinoe off the throne.

I might have said that to an Egyptian chap once.

Alexander took over Egypt in 332 BC, and when he died Ptolemy became the ruler, so the Greeks were running the country.

Prior to that, there was the Hyksos occupation for a couple of hundred years, separating the time of the Middle Kingdom from the New Kingdom. The pyramids were built under the Old Kingdom. The New Kingdom was the one that really got into Asia Minor, and fought with the Hittites, with varying success. There was an Interregnum Period between the Old Kingdom and the Middle Kingdom when Egypt was is somewhat of an anarchist situation with no strong central government.

When you are talking of Egypt in the Ancient World, you are not really looking at a continuous government, but one broken into chunks. Then you had the Nubians, Assyrians, and Persians having control prior to the Greeks. The New Kingdom, which was viewed as the last period of actual Egyptian unified government ended around 1050 BC.

So you could say that the Egyptians civilization lasted about 2000 years with periods of problems during that period.

 

[Carlobrand]

I thought the implication was on a local or planetary level.

Early fusion means you don't have to use up all your available oil deposits, and for more remote areas, solar, wind and wave alternatives.

So, we're talking about an interim period between muscle-power tech and fusion tech, the period when civilizations are moving toward energy sources that are denser but of finite supply?

 

[Condottiere]

If they resolved the issues with fission reactors, but that still relies on a rather finite resource.

Widespread adoption of early fusion is more than enough, and if the planet is balkanized, one more possible piece of friction is removed.

 

[Carlobrand]

If they resolved the issues with fission reactors, but that still relies on a rather finite resource.

Widespread adoption of early fusion is more than enough, and if the planet is balkanized, one more possible piece of friction is removed.

This assumes the construction or maintenance of the fusion plant does not itself depend on a finite resource.

 

[Condottiere]

Fusion reactors seem fairly straight forward, compared to jump drives; in either case, it would appear that humans were able to manufacture both with locally available material in Sol.

The availability of water might be an important factor.

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

I read the Jarrod Diamond book too.

 

[kilemall]

Ever think that the reason for many worlds being low TL is the green lobby?

At TL9 it is economically feasible to move all resource exploitation, refining and manufacturing into space. The environmentalist green lobby could finally get their wish and all polluting manufacturing could be moved off world.

All that would be left on the mainworld is a low TL idyllic agrarian existence, all be it with every mod con and machine you can think of to make your life easy, and unlimited energy beamed down from power satellites.

This is the story for my planet Pronoia. It's about to drop TLs because of such restrained 'greenness', with huge fiscal and political consequences.

 

[Condottiere]

What I took from Guns, Germs and Steel, which in hindsight means Fire, Fusion, Steel was tongue in cheek, is that internal competition, aggression and expansion wins out, facilitated by geography and environment.

 

[kilemall]

What I took from Guns, Germs and Steel, which in hindsight means Fire, Fusion, Steel was tongue in cheek, is that internal competition, aggression and expansion wins out, facilitated by geography and environment.

In other words, evolutionary pressures, both literal environment/immune systems and human-shaped environment.

 

[Bromo33333]

This is the story for my planet Pronoia. It's about to drop TLs because of such restrained 'greenness', with huge fiscal and political consequences.

Dunno. Much of the demands of "Green Tech" is pushing the tech levels upwards. I wouldn't GM a disaster for going green as a result.

 

[Bromo33333]

In other words, evolutionary pressures, both literal environment/immune systems and human-shaped environment.

What I got from Guns, Germs and Steel was the success or failure of a society really boiled down to how easy is it to get a meal. Which on Earth by accident of evolution was in the temperate zones - the crops grew quickly and were low effort, and the livstock that was consumed for food came to maturity in about a year making that low energy. This means that less effort was required to live day to day, so it was easier to accumulate wealth which translated into technology and military power. And most colonization initially would be done in other parts of the temperate zone. It made any colonization attempts in non temperate zones difficult.

In Traveller this would mean that for humans, planets of size 6-8, atmosphere of 5,6,8 and hydrosphere 5-8 would likely have enormous advantages over planets that fell short of this. Without any other leveling effects, those sort of planets hsould support larger populations and be wealthier and higher technology than those that fell short.

It is worth nothing, though, that with climate control technology, genetic engineering, that many of these advantages might be minimized.

 

[kilemall]

What I got from Guns, Germs and Steel was the success or failure of a society really boiled down to how easy is it to get a meal. Which on Earth by accident of evolution was in the temperate zones - the crops grew quickly and were low effort, and the livstock that was consumed for food came to maturity in about a year making that low energy. This means that less effort was required to live day to day, so it was easier to accumulate wealth which translated into technology and military power. And most colonization initially would be done in other parts of the temperate zone. It made any colonization attempts in non temperate zones difficult.

In Traveller this would mean that for humans, planets of size 6-8, atmosphere of 5,6,8 and hydrosphere 5-8 would likely have enormous advantages over planets that fell short of this. Without any other leveling effects, those sort of planets hsould support larger populations and be wealthier and higher technology than those that fell short.

It is worth nothing, though, that with climate control technology, genetic engineering, that many of these advantages might be minimized.

Don't have to go any further then the story of animal power in that same book. Africa has less domesticated animal power and less driving need for it in said temperate zones, so other regions harnessed their local animals and due to need for organization developed more sophisticated agriculture and human organizations to manage/profit by that greater productivity.

 

[kilemall]

Dunno. Much of the demands of "Green Tech" is pushing the tech levels upwards. I wouldn't GM a disaster for going green as a result.

I am postulating that the developmental/land use limits placed by the inhabitants of Pronoia have put a ceiling on economic activity while population has not been so controlled. It's the premium natural living space with technology not counting Earth's tech/plague quarantine IMTU, I think of it as functionally the interstellar 'suburbs'.

This is already built into the WorldGen process in a sense with the sly commentary of what constitutes an IND planet vs. not with the tainted atmospheres, along with what makes a planet POOR or RICH.

I was actually using RTT Worldgen for Pronoia and got a very non-industrial result that limited it's tech. That's where I got the idea that the planet's inhabitants were militantly green as a reaction to what happened to Earth. Fits great into the story line, and giving each planet it's own flavor is the main point behind random worldgen anyway.

 

[Bromo33333]

I am postulating that the developmental/land use limits placed by the inhabitants of Pronoia have put a ceiling on economic activity while population has not been so controlled. It's the premium natural living space with technology not counting Earth's tech/plague quarantine IMTU, I think of it as functionally the interstellar 'suburbs'.

This is already built into the WorldGen process in a sense with the sly commentary of what constitutes an IND planet vs. not with the tainted atmospheres, along with what makes a planet POOR or RICH.

I was actually using RTT Worldgen for Pronoia and got a very non-industrial result that limited it's tech. That's where I got the idea that the planet's inhabitants were militantly green as a reaction to what happened to Earth. Fits great into the story line, and giving each planet it's own flavor is the main point behind random worldgen anyway.

Huh. Maybe the way I would play that out, is that "Green" in this case is the hair shirt "do without" version of "ism" and would classify the government as type "D" and lose 2 TL's as a result.

If it was my GMing, I'd also have a planet that wasn't too far away settled by dissenters that used a more scientific approach to ecology and would end up as a "5" for government and get a +1 to TL.

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

What I got from Guns, Germs and Steel was the success or failure of a society really boiled down to how easy is it to get a meal.

Which on Earth by accident of evolution was in the temperate zones - the crops grew quickly and were low effort, and the livstock that was consumed for food came to maturity in about a year making that low energy. This means that less effort was required to live day to day, so it was easier to accumulate wealth which translated into technology and military power. And most colonization initially would be done in other parts of the temperate zone. It made any colonization attempts in non temperate zones difficult.

As sophonts, we have a tool that allows us to overcome Malthusian Alarmism... technology. Environment does not equal destiny. Culture matters. Technology matters.

I really like GGS and its semi-sequel (...have studied them quite a bit), but there are plenty of exceptions to nearly every rule that one could extrapolate from the book. Sophonce is probably the best tool that any lifeform could ever have: language, tools, etc.

It is worth nothing, though, that with climate control technology, genetic engineering, that many of these advantages might be minimized.

Basically, technology can trump environment, and pretty much any aspect of environment. Cogito ergo sum.

Shabbat Shalom,
M.

 

[Bromo33333]

As sophonts, we have a tool that allows us to overcome Malthusian Alarmism... technology. Environment does not equal destiny. Culture matters. Technology matters.

I really like GGS and its semi-sequel (...have studied them quite a bit), but there are plenty of exceptions to nearly every rule that one could extrapolate from the book. Sophonce is probably the best tool that any lifeform could ever have: language, tools, etc.



Basically, technology can trump environment, and pretty much any aspect of environment. Cogito ergo sum.

Shabbat Shalom,
M.

I do agree to a point. But if you need to use less energy in order to get your outputs, then when you compound this small minimized surplus (that tech allowed), it still would give large wealth and subsequent technology advantage for places where you didn't have to fuss as much to stay alive.

I don't think Technology entirely trumps environment and other factors, it can overcome troubles and minimize these things, but the surplus differences would still be these.

If you were trying to survive on an asteroid belt, you would have to put more effort and technology and energy into staying alive and getting food than a same population garden world. More of the energy expended and wealth used could go to tother projects in the garden than in the belt.

But technology would make a comparison meaningful. And of course, there might be some things about the belt that would be advatageous (they don't need to overcome a gravity well to get to space.

Interesting discussion.

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

But if you need to use less energy in order to get your outputs, then when you compound this small minimized surplus (that tech allowed), it still would give large wealth and subsequent technology advantage for places where you didn't have to fuss as much to stay alive.

Would you please parse this construction to make your point more obvious? What do you mean in a nutshell?

I can see several implication of which I doubt you meant them all...

Shalom,
M.

 

[Selandia]

high tech provide us with the capability to produce more efficiently at lower tech.

Lets says I live on an official tl 8 "eco-shrine" world, I may not mind the govt having me eat fish gotten from sail powered fishing smack (TL 2-3, design with TL 7 know how), as long as the wood and canvas windmill (TL=3/7)provide me with the electricity to power my imported TL 14 computer traded for a ton of frozen fishes.

A colony designed at TL-X does not need to operate at TL-X as small scale copy of a TL-X world. Of course, sustainability when confronted with exceptional situation will be full of exceptional means and ways (uncrate the fusion PoPlant, activate the MediBot...) to offset the inherent weakness of small entities. In that way High TL small communities may subsist with a very limited capability to access (produce-trade) High TL goods

have fun

Selandia

 

[Bromo33333]

Would you please parse this construction to make your point more obvious? What do you mean in a nutshell?

I can see several implication of which I doubt you meant them all...

Shalom,
M.

Oh. Let's say we have 2 worlds at roughly the same tech level.

One is a moon like vacuum world and the other is a garden world much like Earth.

The moon like world will have to expend more of its resources in order to provide water, air, shelter and food to its people than the garden world. Technology may make it all easier and more possible, but for every unit of output there will have to be more economic effort on the moon like vacuum world than on the garden world.

So I feel the garden worlds would be wealthier, and since more output for every input, may have more technological progress over a long period of time (plus if trade routes fail, and war and disaster life support systems are more delicate than a garden world ecosystem. Maybe. Ahem.)

 

[Maksim-Smelchak]

So I feel the garden worlds would be wealthier, and since more output for every input, may have more technological progress over a long period of time (plus if trade routes fail, and war and disaster life support systems are more delicate than a garden world ecosystem. Maybe. Ahem.)

You have the basic Traveller idea then. Those are Traveller economics.

It's been codified into Traveller since 1977.

Shalom,
M.